Patsy Ramsey

[THE BUNK]

It's the damn note that does it every time for me, even though I've struggled with any of the Ramsays killing JBR in the manner in which she died.

The question you need to ask your self Norris is why there is even a ransom note in the first place? Once you have that answer, the case becomes much clearer.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

The question you need to ask your self Norris is why there is even a ransom note in the first place? Once you have that answer, the case becomes much clearer.

The conclusion I reached to that question is simply 'To throw the police off the true killer' .. Jon Benet was already dead in the basement, there is no other reason to write a note.

 

[THE BUNK]

Thanks, T.B. With this and your earlier post taken together, it sounds like you consider IDI -->RDI the best informed (over RDI, IDI, and RDI -->IDI) and therefore the Most Likely To Be Respectable choice. Interesting, and nearly guaranteed to spark protest!

Compare the IDI theorists and RDI theorists on this forum. Which ones do you think are the least biased and credible?

I myself was looking to see if the IDI theory held water. After listening to the arguments of IDI, it's actually strengthened what I originally believed.

 

[chlban]

The question you need to ask your self Norris is why there is even a ransom note in the first place? Once you have that answer, the case becomes much clearer.

It is the Ransom Note, and the body found in the house. i could try to rationalize just about any other evidence to consider IDI. But that damn note. An Intruder writes a RN for one reason only. To get money. No one ever attempted to get money. Why not? Even if this intruder had killed her he could still try for the money. It worked for Hauptmann. He got the money.

There is just no reason at all for an intruder to write that note and then not even attempt to get the money. There is also no reason at all for an intruder to make it appear to be a kidnapping, if the intent was to molest and kill.

But either way, an intruder would want to get her out of that house as soon as possible. Not molest and murder her in the basement with three other people, 2 of them adults, asleep in the house. It makes no sense.

It also begs the question, how did the intruder know it was ONLY 3 people? It was Christmas and it was a huge house. They could have had 20 relatives staying with them.

Those are, IMO, the two hurdles that I have never seen an IDI succesfully manage. The RN and the body in the house.

Can't get past it.

 

[THE BUNK]

It also begs the question, how did the intruder know it was ONLY 3 people? It was Christmas and it was a huge house. They could have had 20 relatives staying with them.

Least of all, JAR could be there for Christmas. How the hell did he know that he would not be home this Christmas?

Why not? Even if this intruder had killed her he could still try for the money. It worked for Hauptmann. He got the money.

Yeah. If you've already done murder at this point, why not collect some money at least. What have you got to lose?

But either way, an intruder would want to get her out of that house as soon as possible. Not molest and murder her in the basement with three other people, 2 of them adults, asleep in the house. It makes no sense.

Not even BTK did this. He made sure that everyone else was dead in the house when he went to torture and kill that little girl. He had plenty of time, because there was nobody alive in the house to spot him and call the police on him.

It makes you wonder why the Ramsey Intruder would be scarred of a middle aged man, a former beauty queen and two little kids.

An Intruder writes a RN for one reason only.

He doesn't even have to write a note. He could phone it in. Of course, that would leave no evidence they could give the police.

 

[Zzzz]

The RN was stupid with a body in the house. Logically...
1) If the Rs did it together (or one covered for the other), they could have dumped the body somewhere and then produced a RN. Much cleaner and makes more sense to have the body away from the house like she really was kidnapped. If a neighbor saw a car leaving, they could say they were going to the bank to get the ransom. Since that easy scenario didn't happen, they must not have done it together.
2) If just John did it, he could have stashed the body in the trunk, found the note, told Patsy he's running to the bank and dump the body. Again it looks like a real kidnaping. That didn't happen either.
3) If Patsy did it, she knows she has no way to get rid of the body. She probably doesn't have ready access to as much cash as is needed for the ransom, so she doesn't have an excuse to drive off after the note is found. John would want to go to the bank and leave her with Burke. So she has to create an untruder and a murder that looks like a male sex crime.

 

[Zzzz]

In scenarios 1 and 2 above, John could have actually withdrawn money. Or said he changed his mind after driving off and decided to call the police. Instead, a truly implausible scenario ensued.

 

[redheadedgal]

i think it's safe to say that if people saw the show and posted about it, it's true. not everything is captured in a screencap.

but here is a possible link, should you wish to pay to watch: http://topmovies.cc/tv-series/321030-watch-48-hours-mystery-season-16-episode-3-online.html

i posted this to mama a few days ago... but wasn't sure if you saw it... since no reply...

by the way, reading this thread made me remember the two ceramic pineapple candle holders i bought late 1990s for my apartment. it seemed to be a popular decorating theme back then as stores were full of various designs/options.

 

[chlban]

The RN was stupid with a body in the house. Logically...
1) If the Rs did it together (or one covered for the other), they could have dumped the body somewhere and then produced a RN. Much cleaner and makes more sense to have the body away from the house like she really was kidnapped. If a neighbor saw a car leaving, they could say they were going to the bank to get the ransom. Since that easy scenario didn't happen, they must not have done it together.
2) If just John did it, he could have stashed the body in the trunk, found the note, told Patsy he's running to the bank and dump the body. Again it looks like a real kidnaping. That didn't happen either.
3) If Patsy did it, she knows she has no way to get rid of the body. She probably doesn't have ready access to as much cash as is needed for the ransom, so she doesn't have an excuse to drive off after the note is found. John would want to go to the bank and leave her with Burke. So she has to create an untruder and a murder that looks like a male sex crime.

However, they couldn't be going to get the Ransom between the time they got home on Christmas night and tne time they called 911. Nothing was open. Where would they be going?

I have always thought it was P acting alone. She didn't mean to kill her or mortally wound her, but once she did, she reacted as any true narcissist would. CYA. However, Patsy could not risk leaving the house. She could be seen, with no explanation or she could wake up John. I tend to think, at that point, she still thought she could con even John.

That RN has always just screamed Patsy to me. Regardless of the Handwriting. It's the content of the note. Over dramatic and over the top. Patsy in a nutshell.

The other thing you have to remember if RDI is that these are not career criminals. Patsy had no experience with murder. My guess is she never, ever admitted, even to herself, that she committed murder. It was, I would bet, a
"tragic accident". At any rate, it's pretty easy to wonder, nearly 20 years later, how she could have believed LE would not think a RN with a body in the house was extremely suspicious, but with her personality, I think she could easily have believed it at the time.

 

[Zzzz]

I totally agree. If it was anyone but Patsy by herself, they could have dumped the body in the morning on the way to the bank and THEN produced a note and called the police. Calling the police with the body in the house was because the perp had no way to get the body out of the house. Which means it wasn't an intruder or John.

 

[chlban]

I totally agree. If it was anyone but Patsy by herself, they could have dumped the body in the morning on the way to the bank and THEN produced a note and called the police. Calling the police with the body in the house was because the perp had no way to get the body out of the house. Which means it wasn't an intruder or John.

Yes, that would have made much more sense. I also cannot see John signing off on that ludicrous note.

In the years since, it seems many of the parents that have pulled this off have just done so with the child "disappearing". No Ransom Note. That was, IMO, Patsy's biggest mistake.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Yes, that would have made much more sense. I also cannot see John signing off on that ludicrous note.

In the years since, it seems many of the parents that have pulled this off have just done so with the child "disappearing". No Ransom Note. That was, IMO, Patsy's biggest mistake.

How was it a mistake? She was never arrested, many people think she was innocent, and it is one of the reasons why this case got so much attention.

 

[bettybaby00]

Yes, that would have made much more sense. I also cannot see John signing off on that ludicrous note.

In the years since, it seems many of the parents that have pulled this off have just done so with the child "disappearing". No Ransom Note. That was, IMO, Patsy's biggest mistake.

Can't forget this little tidbit...

Members of the FBI had been in fairly regular consultation with Boulder detectives throughout the course of the investigation, but this was the first opportunity they had had to participate in a detailed overview of the evidence collected thus far in the case. The FBI agents continued to point out that statistics and case histories pointed to parental, family, or insider involvement, when a child was murdered in the home. Stranger abductions were far and few between, and their cumulative experience suggested that authorities needed to continue to take a hard look at the parents. In reviewing similar cases, there had only been one instance in which a child had been taken for ransom and then found murdered in the home: it was the JonBenét Ramsey homicide investigation.

Kolar kindle location: 1940

This discussion makes me again wonder who was possibly called that night/morning b/c I find it more than odd that LE was directed from the get go to treat the family as "victims." Why would LE need to be reminded that the Rs were victims when they were responding to a possible kidnapping? I've always looked at the RN as a means to buy them time: time to be perceived as victims. And it worked IMO, b/c after spending hours in that house, waiting for a ransom call, surrounded by family friends, their minister, and Windex wielding victim advocates, the police were then suddenly confronted with a body rather than dealing with a ransom demand, and suddenly the Rs were walking out the front door without a backward glance. This likely would have never happened withou the RN.

Does anyone have the info on when / how the directive to treat them as victims came about?

 

[DeDee]

AH did not publically release the RN until almost a year later or in September, '97. The intense interest, for me, was always about the victim that began immediately with the cause of JBs death as the news flashed with snapshots of 4-5-6yo JBR while wearing skimpy, seductive, adult French-style attire and the modeling portfolio released of this beautiful, young child wearing makeup and red lipstick coupled with JBs prior sexual abuse.

 

[chlban]

How was it a mistake? She was never arrested, many people think she was innocent, and it is one of the reasons why this case got so much attention.

I know there are many people on various forums that defend the R's, but in real life, I don't know a single person who believes it was an Intruder. Now, granted, i don't question strangers or all of my work associate's, but everyone I have ever spoken to about the case think a R did it. A popular view seems to be "the Brother" because they think that explains why both parents covered it up.

So, that is what I mean by mistake. Yes, she was never brought to justice, at least not by LE. However she had to know that most of America believed she murdered her child.

I just think that without the RN there is sufficient evidence that they might well have convinced America that they are innocent, much like the McCann's did in England. But with the Ramsey's it always goes back to that note.

 

[gramcracker]

Does anyone have the info on when / how the directive to treat them as victims came about?

I have no names in my head at the moment but I have characters, if that helps some

IIRC one patrol officer arrived first, and then another arrived right soon after. the first officer on scene read the RN and immediately had a problem accepting it as genuine. which is what he said when their sergeant arrived, because at that time it was already known that the family was not be treated as suspects. ie: the patrol officer's first instinct was to look at the parents but his hands were tied

so as to the "when," it was real early

the patrol officers and the detectives were separate BPD divisions and had separate commanders. one of those commanders was on vacation time and his second in command stepped up, but not for too long because the top commander assumed the role (later in the morning?)

as to the "'how," it came from Chief of Police Koby who headed both divisions. the commanders told the responding patrol officers/sergeant and detectives not to treat the parents as suspects and the commanders got their orders from Koby

 

[THE BUNK]

I know there are many people on various forums that defend the R's, but in real life, I don't know a single person who believes it was an Intruder. Now, granted, i don't question strangers or all of my work associate's, but everyone I have ever spoken to about the case think a R did it. A popular view seems to be "the Brother" because they think that explains why both parents covered it up.

That is true. When I discussed this case in person with my fellow criminal justice students, they were unilaterally RDI in their beliefs. It has only been on the internet that I have found IDI theorists.

 

[DeeDee249]

Can't forget this little tidbit...



Kolar kindle location: 1940

This discussion makes me again wonder who was possibly called that night/morning b/c I find it more than odd that LE was directed from the get go to treat the family as "victims." Why would LE need to be reminded that the Rs were victims when they were responding to a possible kidnapping? I've always looked at the RN as a means to buy them time: time to be perceived as victims. And it worked IMO, b/c after spending hours in that house, waiting for a ransom call, surrounded by family friends, their minister, and Windex wielding victim advocates, the police were then suddenly confronted with a body rather than dealing with a ransom demand, and suddenly the Rs were walking out the front door without a backward glance. This likely would have never happened withou the RN.

Does anyone have the info on when / how the directive to treat them as victims came about?

I think that directive- to treat them as victims- came about in the first day of the investigation. That is why the parents were not separated/questioned/arrested as soon as the body was "found". I believe there was some speculation that a phone call was made to the BPD and/or DA's office from the Assistant Governor that morning shortly after the 911 call. And I believe that phone records would show a call made from the R's home or cell phone to either someone at that office or someone with connections to that office. And I believe it is one of the main reasons the phone records were not made available to LE.
If it had been anyone else, the house would have been cleared of all non-essential persons (this specifically means all the RDI friends, clergy and "victim's advocates"). The family would have been required to turn over the clothing they wore to the Whites as well as clothing they had on that day (for Patsy is was the same). This would have happened before they were allowed to leave the home. They would have been taken into custody first.

 

[THE BUNK]

I believe there was some speculation that a phone call was made to the BPD and/or DA's office from the Assistant Governor that morning shortly after the 911 call. And I believe that phone records would show a call made from the R's home or cell phone to either someone at that office or someone with connections to that office. And I believe it is one of the main reasons the phone records were not made available to LE.

Interesting. I was always under the assumption that the call that they were trying to hide was a call to a lawyer before the 911 call. Your idea does make more sense.

 

[midwest mama]

Yes. The fact alone that "victim's advocates" were on hand very early in the a.m. tells us that the directive came down from a solid top official.