Patsy Ramsey

[CorallaroC]

Started reading DOI again, and was thinking about ST theory and I was curious about [/B]one part in the book when JB opened her MyTwinn doll and was just like meh whatever and P was disappointed about it, then JR told her to get a picture with PR, I believe this is the one with her gripping JB arm... anyways maybe P was upset of her acting that way.[/B] And then came time to dress for the Whites party and she wouldnt wear what PR wanted her to. So I am thinking P was upset about the morning and afternoon and then whatever transpired after returning home and they had gotten into it. But was it PR that delivered that head blow... I know she loved JB but maybe she was just wore out and fed up with everything and she snapped. Maybe after returning home from the Whites JB walked in and was hungry and wanted pineapple. Then maybe P wanted to get her ready for bed(in the pink nightgown?) or in the white gap top, longjohns, but I believe what happeened first was in her room(patsy asking" I dont see any blood do you, to TH) or maybe she made JB put on the red turtleneck before bed then changed her back into the gap top. I believe she was whacked on the head unconscious then was carried down to the basement(garland in her hair) and thinking she was dead, constructed the garrote. She may have put her in the WC to hide her from JR. And maybe he really did know nothing and thats why he told SL he found her at 11. Sorry to ramble(and not use paragraphs lol) but this just came to mind. I think JB was a big daddys girl and he was away alot and she missed him(and was being molested to, wonder if P knew who was doing it) but let it go on. And I wonder if she didnt resent JB some too for maybe not showig her much attention like she did J. Could the molester have been DP? He was in Boulder alot, and even flew back to atl on Christmas eve?, 23rd party,? on standby. Was Patsys side of the family checked out? Alot of time the abusers are grandparents so this is worth looking at

nice post Elannia, you mentioned things I've wondered about for years. Especially the "my twin doll" - which on the surface might seem like a thoughtful gift, but I have never been able to fathom what it would be like to receive a doll like that, especially for a little girl! No matter how pretty the doll might have been, personally I think it would have been very disturbing, to say the least! The mere thought creeps me out, and I'm a grown adult. I'd forgotten about the part where JR allegedly asked that a photo be taken - if the photo of PR holding JBR's arm is the substitute pic, then clearly JBR (or someone else) didn't want the doll in that particular pic. It would be interesting to see a photo of that doll, imo.

I happened to check my kindle version of TOSOS, to help me remember anything else written about the doll. Here is a brief quote from page 3 of 249. (using initials for clarity/brevity here)

"(PR) bought a My Twinn doll from a doll maker who specialized in creating dolls from photographs to look like the child who would own it. She had been thrilled to find this doll maker, and even bought a couple of matching outfits so (JBR) and the doll could dress alike. (JBR) opened the box Christmas morning, took one look, and wrinkled her nose. "Thanks, Mommy, "she said politely, but we could tell she was more interested in other toys.
(PR) shrugged, then examined the doll in the box and gave a shudder. Leaning toward me (presumably meaning JR the author/narrator), she whispered, "JR, this doll lying in the box like this with her blond hair spread out and eyes closed - my gosh, it looks like a child in a casket! It kind of gives me the creeps." "

(next para) "...Later (PR) remembered the life-sized doll and agonized that perhaps it has been a warning. If it was a warning, it went right over our heads. We were too busy being happy."

~~~ IMO, in sounds like the look-alike doll didn't go over well with anyone that Christmas morning, not even PR.
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all my posts are jmo

 

[CorallaroC]

I had another thought relating to PR, a phrase she used early on in the investigation "the funny little clues" which she presumably believed were left behind by the intruder.

Ok, Funny. Little. Clues. It made me wonder what those words meant to her. Googled it just for the heck of it, and found two interesting items: a common sorority game, and a Christmas Improv Game. Not sure when the games were invented or commonly played, but interesting nonetheless. (here is a link for the imrov game http://www.mainstages.com/christmas-improv-game/ )

 

[Global Justice Ops]

What about the trauma to JonBenet's vagina? You think Patsy would insert a broken paintbrush handle into her daughter to stage the crime scene?

 

[elannia]

What about the trauma to JonBenet's vagina? You think Patsy would insert a broken paintbrush handle into her daughter to stage the crime scene?

Honestly, no I cannot see her doing that as a mother. But can you imagine tightening the garrote around her neck... I dont want to think she(or anyone else in the house that night did that either, but someone did , and imo it wasnt an intruder. I think the other family members need to be checked out again. They are covering for someone and if not BR, then who?

 

[DeeDee249]

Honestly, no I cannot see her doing that as a mother. But can you imagine tightening the garrote around her neck... I dont want to think she(or anyone else in the house that night did that either, but someone did , and imo it wasnt an intruder. I think the other family members need to be checked out again. They are covering for someone and if not BR, then who?

That was part of the problem with this case from the beginning. People (usually women) simply cannot imagine a mother doing these things. Yet- one has only to look at the news to see that mothers indeed DO terrible things to their kids sometimes. I cannot think of who else they would cover for in not for their son(s).

 

[elannia]

That was part of the problem with this case from the beginning. People (usually women) simply cannot imagine a mother doing these things. Yet- one has only to look at the news to see that mothers indeed DO terrible things to their kids sometimes. I cannot think of who else they would cover for in not for their son(s).

Exactly, DeeDee. Imo, it was all P and Br, and I cannot exclude JR as having no part except the cover up. But women kill their kids all the time and I believe it was an accident but Patsy(being the social butterfly,etc as she was) couldnt live with the truth about her death, In all the theories of which family member was involved. But I am still curious about DP

 

[ukrberserker23]

If we assume that JBR was molested at the Christmas party where she said she didn't feel very pretty, then can we assume that her molester was both at that party, and in the house the night she died? I don't discount the possibility of multiple molesters.

 

[andreww]

Why would we assume she was molested at the party? In fact their isn't a lot of evidence to indicate that she had ever been sexually abused during her life. The autopsy showed what could have been the result of chronic sexual abuse, but that also could have been the result of childhood masturbation. The abuse on the night of her death may have been inflicted after death as part of the staging. I'm not saying she wasn't abused, but we are a long way from confirming that she was.

 

[UKGuy]

Why would we assume she was molested at the party? In fact their isn't a lot of evidence to indicate that she had ever been sexually abused during her life. The autopsy showed what could have been the result of chronic sexual abuse, but that also could have been the result of childhood masturbation. The abuse on the night of her death may have been inflicted after death as part of the staging. I'm not saying she wasn't abused, but we are a long way from confirming that she was.

andreww,
JonBenet had chronic internal tissue damage which had healed, thereby suggesting abuse as the cause. Investigators, e.g. Holly Smith, head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse team, thought JonBenet had been chronically abused, other pediatricians came to similar conclusions.

.

 

[CorallaroC]

BBM. In less than an hour his family excludes JonBenet.

Well, thats a good point. I suppose it is no wonder BR drew fa mily pics for the psychologist that did not include his sister. I'd be interested to hear from professional forensic psychologists on this topic. Was JBR quickly excluded from the emotional "present moment" because she had been murdered and it was too much to cope with emotionally? and is that normal? I have no idea what to think, except that the father carrying this precious child's corpse up the stairs like she was a piece of lumber, arms out in front him, hands on the waist, all 45 lbs of this child. Nope, it makes no sense, think of running up the stairs carrying the equivalent of four 1-gallon plastic bottles of water out in front of you while going up the stairs, Well if its your child in an emergency, yes of course, but common sense says the father would have cradled the child's body doing it. In total duress, the body instinctively knows how to conserve its energy. I guess sorta cant have it both ways - ARMS LENGTH -vs-adrenaline-gut-reaction-hold-my-baby-close-get-to-safety-quick body reaction. JMO

 

[andreww]

The way John carried JB up the stairs suggested he was repulsed at the thought of carrying a corpse. The fact that the first thing he asked was "is she alive?" shows he was being deceptive IMO. The way he carried her clearly showed that he was well aware that she was dead. Like others here I'm convinced John knew exactly where she was the whole time. His actions that day convince me that at no time did he actually think she was coming back alive.


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[Chelly]

The way John carried JB up the stairs suggested he was repulsed at the thought of carrying a corpse. The fact that the first thing he asked was "is she alive?" shows he was being deceptive IMO. The way he carried her clearly showed that he was well aware that she was dead. Like others here I'm convinced John knew exactly where she was the whole time. His actions that day convince me that at no time did he actually think she was coming back alive.


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JR carrying JonBenet up the stairs with his arms stretched out in front of him, keeping her lifeless body as far away from him as possible, then putting her down on the floor....that action alone was so telling in itself.

 

[alfiebaby]

Channel 4 you tube, sorry unsure how to link. Quote JR, Patsy only cried twice, when diagnosed with cancer, and on finding the diagnosis terminal.

 

[icedtea4me]

Channel 4 you tube, sorry unsure how to link. Quote JR, Patsy only cried twice, when diagnosed with cancer, and on finding the diagnosis terminal.

Copy the video address.
Click on the insert video link.
Paste in the link.

 

[Meara]

I’ve only read the quotes you used, and, as I noted, was reacting to those.

While it may be true that ordinary or normal people can unexpectedly kill and that they can be devastated by their act, I am hesitant to accept that less ordinary or abnormal people cannot suffer the same consequence in similar circumstance.

I think that there are a lot of killers, normal folks and otherwise, who could fit this description, as quoted by you: They want nothing around to trigger memories of what they have done. Not because they are trying to evade the police... [omitted* by me] They simply cannot bear any reminder of the evil they believe they could not possibly have committed.

I realize that Schiller is describing a type who (supposedly) actually “forgets” their act of murder, but the process, etc that he describes (just going by the passages you’ve quoted!) is going to be essentially the same for someone who can’t “forget,” but really wants to, tries to, prays to.

I think it’s nice and can be quite handy to come up with these categories and types and imagine that everything and everyone fits into them all nice and pretty; but as I said before, I just don’t live in that b&w world. Even a deviant, a molester, a beggar, a liar, a thief, can be detrimentally affected to varying degree by the taking of a life. Denial I suspect is common amongst such, but do any of them ever truly, really, actually “forget?”

Anyway, I know you’re trying to tie this all into a PDI discussion, and you think that maybe Mrs Ramsey was of that type and that she slides into that category. So, I’ll just bow out of this conversation. No worries.
.

*Omitted: ...such consequences never enter their minds.
...

AK

Hi Anti-K,

Thank you, and my apologies for not getting back to you (or to any of the rest of you on this thread!). There was a reply in the works.... In July I was preparing to help relocate the agency where I work, and for my daughter's wedding, events scheduled to happen within two weeks of each other - yikes! Suddenly, there was something to do every evening and weekend, and posting slipped out of reach. In the fall, as things were returning to normal, I became ill -- something not usually life-threatening but episodic -- and after three trips to the ER a planned surgery got moved up a few weeks. That took place last month, and I'm doing very well. The agency survived, too, and the wedding was wonderful, but there's still catching up to do in various areas of my life. I have visited here from time to time to see what was ticking and hope to be active on the board again at some point. I'm glad you're all still here! Though I've been away, hardly a day goes by that I don't think about JonBenet and this case, and the passion for answers and justice remains unchanged.

Meara

 

[DeeDee249]

Hi Anti-K,

Thank you, and my apologies for not getting back to you (or to any of the rest of you on this thread!). There was a reply in the works.... In July I was preparing to help relocate the agency where I work, and for my daughter's wedding, events scheduled to happen within two weeks of each other - yikes! Suddenly, there was something to do every evening and weekend, and posting slipped out of reach. In the fall, as things were returning to normal, I became ill -- something not usually life-threatening but episodic -- and after three trips to the ER a planned surgery got moved up a few weeks. That took place last month, and I'm doing very well. The agency survived, too, and the wedding was wonderful, but there's still catching up to do in various areas of my life. I have visited here from time to time to see what was ticking and hope to be active on the board again at some point. I'm glad you're all still here! Though I've been away, hardly a day goes by that I don't think about JonBenet and this case, and the passion for answers and justice remains unchanged.

Meara

So glad to see you back again- you have been busy! Glad your surgery went well and I am sure you were a lovely mother-of-the-bride.

 

[BBB167893]

Welcome back, meara!

 

[Meara]

:wave: Dee, hi! Good to see you, too. Thanks for the warm welcome + kind words. The bride was radiant, and mom did not disgrace herself : )

 

[Meara]

Welcome back, meara!

Thanks, SuperDave! Good to be here + glad to see you : )

 

[celticthyme]

Given what we have learned in retrospect, we know that most of what the Ramsey's have said (about what happened on December 25th and 26th) has been lies. We do not know who was at the White's party, what happened at the party. Did they really deliver gifts after the party or did Doug Stine came home with them? Why would they plan a complicated trip to Michigan, when the other kids could have as easily flown to Boulder. What hinky things happened with the Stines? We only know what they have said, and not much of it really makes sense.