Patsy Ramsey

[icedtea4me]

Well, I’d hate to be banned, but I don’t really have much control over that.

Anyway...

I was asking for one SIMPLE RDI explanation that makes sense of the evidence. Whether or not a scintilla of intruder evidence exists has nothing to do with that.

TBH, and with respect, I think that if you consider any and ALL of my posts critically you will find that I do use facts and that I do logically connect the dots.

Perhaps you wish for an RDI only forum. I respect that and actually would support and defend that – even if banned. It is your house. You make the rules. No one has to like them. I would accept a ban without anger or complaint.
...

AK

I'm perfectly fine with you and other IDI's being on this forum.

 

[elannia]

So I am having trouble finding where PR said she would leave things on the back staircase for LHP as well. I know I have read her interview about it, will have to keep digging, unless someone can point me in the right place. TIA.

 

[elannia]

It is strange to me that during LHP interview she says she didnt know the WC was down there, even though she had gotten the artificial trees(along with her husband?) outta there to set out. Honestly, when I look at the basement floor plans, you go down the stairs, turn right, and straight ahead is the WC. Perhaps seeing the basement in person would be different, but it LOOKS pretty simple to me.

 

[inspector rex]

It is strange to me that during LHP interview she says she didnt know the WC was down there, even though she had gotten the artificial trees(along with her husband?) outta there to set out. Honestly, when I look at the basement floor plans, you go down the stairs, turn right, and straight ahead is the WC. Perhaps seeing the basement in person would be different, but it LOOKS pretty simple to me.

Yes, it's strange she would deny knowing about it.
Patsy's Interview 1997:
TT: Okay. Okay. Patsy, has anybody, that you can remember, um, spent time in the basement, um, how many people have had access to the basement know about that basement cellar?

PR: Well my cleaning lady and her husband.

TT: Linda and Mervin?
PR: Yeah, would definitely be one couple, because I had asked them at Thanksgiving time, we were going to be in Atlanta and I had hired them to put out the Christmas trees and some of the Christmas decorations and the big artificial Christmas trees were back in that room.
TT: Um hum.
PR: So they would have been there doing that.

I think she might have also had her daughter and son-in-law helping.
In fact, I think they all had Thanksgiving dinner at the Ramsey house while they were working there and the Ramseys were away!
I would have to find the source for that, as I'm relying on memory.

Edited to add:

Ok, this is from the next interview:

18 TRIP DEMUTH: Patsy, I would like to know,

19 the best of your memory, prior to this Christmas, who

20 had gone in that wine cellar.

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, at Thanksgiving time I

22 asked my cleaning lady, I had kept my big artificial

23 trees in there, and I asked her to come and, you know,

24 put those up while I was gone at Thanksgiving. So I

25 don't know exactly who was with her to help her. She

0351

1 insinuated this is when they were going to also clean

2 some of the windows, she and her husband. I think she

3 also mentioned that her daughter had come to help her,

4 Kristen, I think.

5 And they were there on Thanksgiving day, I

6 know, because they (inaudible). They said they brought

7 them something over for Thanksgiving to eat. So I

8 would know that group, one or all of them, took the --

9 because the trees were up when I got back, so they had

10 to have been in there to get them out of there.

11 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.

 

[OliviaG1996]

It is strange to me that during LHP interview she says she didnt know the WC was down there, even though she had gotten the artificial trees(along with her husband?) outta there to set out. Honestly, when I look at the basement floor plans, you go down the stairs, turn right, and straight ahead is the WC. Perhaps seeing the basement in person would be different, but it LOOKS pretty simple to me.

From acandyrose:

1998-08-05: JonBenet's America Documentary August 5, 1998 KUSA-Channel 9 Denver

Man: "Then another story appeared - The room where JonBenet was found was so hidden that whoever murdered her knew the house - even the mayor of Boulder said so."

Mayor: "By all reports, there were no visible signs of forced entry. The body was found in a place where people are saying, somebody had to know the house."

Man: "Television hammered the message home. {Shows American Journal saying JonBenet's body was found in a 'hidden' room.)"

Linda Hoffmann-Pugh: "When I cleaned that house, I cleaned that basement many times and I didn't even know that room was there - It tells me somebody had to know that house."


LHP said she didn't know that room was there, "when I cleaned that house, I cleaned that basement". She didn't say that she just found out there was a wine cellar during the interview. The Hoffmanns retrieved the Christmas trees from the basement around Thanksgiving of 1996. I'm not sure she was asked when it was exactly that she found out there was a wine cellar in the basement, but it could've been around that time.

 

[inspector rex]

From acandyrose:

1998-08-05: JonBenet's America Documentary August 5, 1998 KUSA-Channel 9 Denver

Man: "Then another story appeared - The room where JonBenet was found was so hidden that whoever murdered her knew the house - even the mayor of Boulder said so."

Mayor: "By all reports, there were no visible signs of forced entry. The body was found in a place where people are saying, somebody had to know the house."

Man: "Television hammered the message home. {Shows American Journal saying JonBenet's body was found in a 'hidden' room.)"

Linda Hoffmann-Pugh: "When I cleaned that house, I cleaned that basement many times and I didn't even know that room was there - It tells me somebody had to know that house."


LHP said she didn't know that room was there, "when I cleaned that house, I cleaned that basement". She didn't say that she just found out there was a wine cellar during the interview. The Hoffmanns retrieved the Christmas trees from the basement around Thanksgiving of 1996. I'm not sure she was asked when it was exactly that she found out there was a wine cellar in the basement, but it could've been around that time.

It has frequently been called the wine cellar. Patsy said in her interview that it wasn't really a wine cellar, although she had stored a couple of cases of wine there when they had a party.
It looks as if it had originally been a coal store as it was part of the original house. Maybe a coal cellar is a better description. But they used it to store some things, and it also had lots of window screens and paint and painter's equipment. In fact, for such a small room, there was a big variety of items in there.
Anyway, there didn't seem to be any wine stored in there when JonBenet was found there?

 

[Anti-K]

LHP’s credibility had always been questionable. This is an example of why: she had been to the WC, but later claimed to not know of i’s existence. . Of course, LHP was named a suspect by Mrs Ramsey and LHP was subsequently investigated and harassed by media and such. Her life was detrimentally affected and it could be said that she was hurt and felt turned upon. To this day there are people theorizing about her involvement in this crime. So, we can see some cause for LHP being a little anti-Ramsey.
...

AK

 

[mochii]

It is strange to me that during LHP interview she says she didnt know the WC was down there, even though she had gotten the artificial trees(along with her husband?) outta there to set out. Honestly, when I look at the basement floor plans, you go down the stairs, turn right, and straight ahead is the WC. Perhaps seeing the basement in person would be different, but it LOOKS pretty simple to me.

What I took from that was prior to getting the trees she had no idea that room existed --UNTIL specifically asked by Patsy around Thanksgiving to go in there. I thought she was saying she had never found the room on her own, despite having spent large amounts of time within the Ramsey basement.

 

[Meara]

inspector rex, the information is in Linda's interview rather than one of Patsy's. This link should take you to it on A Candy Rose:

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-hoffmann-pugh.htm

 

[inspector rex]

inspector rex, the information is in Linda's interview rather than one of Patsy's. This link should take you to it on A Candy Rose:

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-hoffmann-pugh.htm

Thank you Mera.
Yes I was aware that LHP stated this.
My question was did Patsy back her up?
Was Patsy even asked in the interviews if she had a habit of putting things on the spiral stairs for LHP?

 

[Meara]

Oh, okay. Missed that a mile :facepalm: I did a word search of Patsy's interviews and didn't turn up anything. I have PMPT and Steve Thomas's book on Kindle and can search those. BRB….


(time passes)


There's nothing about cleaning Patsy's purses in either book or on the Internet except LHP's interview.

 

[CherCher]

I've done a quick search of Patsy's interviews and can't find where she agreed that she left things on the spiral stairs for the housekeeper to clean out.
Can you please direct me to the correct interview?

I couldn't find anything where Patsy specifically mentions leaving things for her to clean out, but in her interview on June 24th 1998 with Tom Haney she does mention LHP as someone who would know about her habit of leaving things at the bottom of the stairway.

 

[DeeDee249]

I couldn't find anything where Patsy specifically mentions leaving things for her to clean out, but in her interview on June 24th 1998 with Tom Haney she does mention LHP as someone who would know about her habit of leaving things at the bottom of the stairway.

It was the housekeeper LHP who told police Patsy left her handbags on the back stairs for her to clean once a week. She also told police that she and Patsy used to communicate by leaving notes for each other on the back stairs. Patsy never mentioned this to police. I felt the Rs picked LHP as their "patsy" (no pun intended) for this crime right from the start. JR said the SECOND he brought JB's body up from the basement that "this is an inside job". LHP was the perfect patsy, too. She knew the family well, knew the house, was familiar with notes being left on the stairs (whereas a REAL kidnapper would have left the note on the kid's bed- no intruder would even know Patsy used those stairs instead of the main staircase) and LHP needed money- having asked Patsy for a $2000 loan just that month. I doubt Patsy would mention to police that she had habit of using those stairs for "communication".

 

[Mama2JML]

I couldn't find anything where Patsy specifically mentions leaving things for her to clean out, but in her interview on June 24th 1998 with Tom Haney she does mention LHP as someone who would know about her habit of leaving things at the bottom of the stairway.

I've skimmed Patsy's 06.24.98 interview, but I haven't found the reference you mentioned. Would you post the pertinent excerpt(s), please?

 

[BBB167893]

She would not struggle if the head blow came first.

Quite so.

BTW, it should be easy to subdue a child as long as you don’t care what harm is done in the act. THIS MAY BE GRAPHIC TO SOME _ WARNING. In the basement, knock victim to the ground, face first. Sit on victim, legs to either side. Knees over shoulders. Victim’s arms pinned beneath victim, or beneath your lower legs. Even with an alert, struggling victim beneath you, you could still create the garrote and use it.

You mean they wouldn't have one already made? And even then, make an inefficient, handled model?

To what purpose? The sexual assault at or near point of death? We don’t know. Opinions vary. However, we do know that the killer covered up this aspect of the crime. Perhaps even going so far as to stage it as a kidnapping.

NOW you're onto it: if it HAD been an intruder, they wouldn't have staged it to LOOK like an intruder!

 

[BBB167893]

They would know investigation into insiders would lead nowhere, so, pointing towards an insider would be tantamount to pointing at themselves as they are the ultimate insiders.

Assuming that they were thinking that far ahead! I have yet to find anyone, RDI, IDI or OTF (on-the-fence) who thinks the Ramseys were criminal masterminds. But, for the sake of argument, let's say that the people who say the idea was to pin it on the housekeeper are right. The Rs probably figured that, given the choice between a prominent local businessman with a socialite wife, and a near-broke house servant, LE would go down the primrose path, especially with them nudging LE that way with that "well, so-and-so has a key" business.

As it was, I guess they came to the same conclusion as you, because once that idea crapped out, they just got behind what Lou Smit was selling. He truly was a godsend for them (pardon the pun).

 

[BBB167893]

So she said. But did Patsy agree?

I'll check.

Why would Patsy leave things on the stairs for the cleaner? Wouldn't there be more appropriate places to leave things in like the kitchen for example?

I'm often surprised by how quirky things like that can be from person to person.

 

[BBB167893]

Except the note pointed inside because it appears to have been written in the home, and it was written with materials from the home. Indeed, several aspects of the crime point inside the home. For instance, the paint brush handle unnecessarily incorporated into the murder weapon. Interestingly, these things pointing towards the home are also things that point away from an intruder.

Right.

If a Ramsey could be inspired to commit acts hoping to point investigators away from themselves, an intruder could be likewise motivated to do the same. And, the evidence as we know it is more suggestive of the latter than the former.

In YOUR opinion.

Let me illustrate this: consider the paintbrush. Three pieces. Three locations (one unknown). One piece connects the murder weapon to the home via a second piece. The remainder of the cord used for the garrote is missing.

And?

If RDI the remainder of the cord is disposed of. Why?

That assumes there was any remainder LEFT! I'm not so sure there was. And even if there had been, even a schoolkid would know to get rid of it.

The (if RDI) unnecessary breaking and use of the paintbrush connects the murder weapon to the house. Disposing of the remaining cord does what? Any supposed intent of forensic concern is contradicted by the paintbrush. This makes no sense. Any explanation for this will be necessarily complex.

Uh, no, it isn't, to all of those assertions. Just a case of people who may have had (limited) KNOWLEDGE, but no EXPERIENCE.

However, if IDI, the remainder of the cord is never on site. The killer brings only what he deemed necessary and used the entire length of cord brought with him. Perhaps, the same with the tape. He uses the paintbrush handle – breaking it and leaving one piece for investigators to find – because it connects the murder weapon to the house, and therefore away from himself. This makes sense. It’s a simple explanation.

Some explanation. Explain how Patsy's fibers got tied into it.

Now, consider the missing end of the paintbrush handle – the tip. Let’s assume it was use for the sexual assault. It is missing. Why is this piece missing while two other pieces are left behind?

If we consider that the sexual aspect of this crime was covered up – area wiped, victim redressed; composed, covered, kidnapping elements – then disposing of the tip becomes just another aspect of that.

Oh, I agree with that. The creators wanted to distance themselves from the creation quickly.

The RDI explanation here is, once again, of necessity complex. For example, covering up the sexual aspect of the crime contradicts the intent of committing the sexual assault to cover up prior abuse.

I actually can explain it simply: it DOESN'T contradict it; they wanted to distance themselves from it.

An IDI explanation is very simple – he wanted to cover up the sexual aspect of the crime.

WHY?

You know, Anti-K, this conversation reminds me of an old Johnny Cash song:

"If you waste your time a-talkin' to the people who don't listen,
"To the things that you are sayin', who do you think's gonna hear.
"And if you should die explainin' how the things that they complain about,
"Are things they could be changin', who do you think's gonna care?"

There were other lonely singers in a world turned deaf and blind,
Who were crucified for what they tried to show.
And their voices have been scattered by the swirling winds of time.
'Cos the truth remains that no-one wants to know.

 

[BBB167893]

"Without the note all you have is a dead with girl with sexual injuries."

Maybe not.

What ELSE was there?

I love the What If There Had Been No Note counterfactual. I know a few want us to play this out as if the crime scene would remain the same if we remove the note, but this is nonsensical. If we remove the note we remove the intent to fake a kidnapping. Gone are the wrist ligatures, gone is the tape. No more victim in the basement. No more unnecessarily created self-incriminating evidence (ransom note, note pad, pen; paint brush).

Well, don't include me in that. I'm calling it as I see it.

Do we still have the sexual assault at or near point of death? Maybe; but, maybe not.

I'd say yes.

If we are to realistically play out this counterfactual we have to go back to the initial incident. The point of contingency. If RDI, then that point is the head blow. This is where we start.

Quite so!

We have a child, victim of a massive head blow. Now what? (hint: fake an accident, call an ambulance. call your lawyers, get outta dodge)

Are those options, or are you saying they would have done those things, more or less in that order?

 

[BBB167893]

The challenge then is to produce ONE simple RDI theory that makes sense of the evidence. ONE.

Got it.

Thomas didn’t do it: Kolar didn’t do it.

In YOUR opinion. Why don't you just say that?

YOU can’t do it (don’t worry, neither can anyone else).

Oh, no? Try this on for size:

The Ramseys had attended a party on Christmas night at the house of Fleet and Priscilla White. When they got home, both parents said that they put JonBenet to bed and John worked with Burke on a model train set for a while. After that, it becomes a nightmare:
The Ramseys get home from the party at the Whites'. Burke asks for a bedtime snack. Patsy sees a bowl of pineapple on the kitchen counter and gives him some, telling him not to paw at it. Both children have some.
JOHN: "Come on, honey. Let's get you to bed. Be with you in a minute, son."
BURKE: "I'll wait for you there, Dad."
PATSY: "Just a quick check to see if I missed anything."
Patsy is now alone. She's doing her thing. John puts JonBenet in bed. They speak for a minute. Maybe something else. Maybe he gives her privates a "quick check." He goes down to the basement.
Patsy's catching her breath in the living room. John and Burke come up.
JOHN: Head on up to bed, son.
BURKE: "Okay, Dad."
The parents are alone.
JOHN: "Come on up to bed."
PATSY: "No, I'm not done yet."
JOHN: "You shouldn't take so much on yourself."
PATSY (irritated at him): "I have to. I do everything around here."
JOHN: "Sorry I mentioned it."
John goes upstairs. Soon, JonBenet is back down.
PATSY: "What do you want now, honey," with a little irritation in her voice.
JONBENET: "I did it again."
PATSY: "Oh, God. Come on."
Up to JonBenet's room.
PATSY: "I don't see anything."
JONBENET: "I didn't go to bed yet."
PATSY: "Can't you do anything I ask?"
JONBENET: "I'm sorry."
PATSY: "Get in there."
Into the bathroom. Patsy cleans her up.
PATSY: "Here, don't tell you're father."
JONBENET: "You and Daddy tell me secrets."
PATSY: "Secrets?"
JONBENET: "Yeah, Daddy tells me to keep secrets."
PATSY: "Like what?"
JONBENET (suddenly sullen): "It wouldn't be a secret then."
PATSY (now more irritated): "Fine."
Patsy becomes rough.
JONBENET: "OW! Mommy, that hurts! Daddy's nicer."
PATSY: "I didn't think your father cleaned you up."
JONBENET: "He doesn't. He calls it our special game."
PATSY's head snaps up. Their eyes meet.
JONBENET (whispering): "I told the secret."
PATSY (in a rage): "YOU ROTTEN LITTLE LIAR!!!"
JONBENET (almost in a panic): "I'm sorry, Mommy!"
PATSY: "I'll teach you a lesson you won't forget!"
JonBenet tries to run away, but her pants are still around her knees. She tries to pull them up, but trips. As she gets up, Patsy grabs her collar and begins to struggle with her. She MEANS to toss JonBenet onto the bed face-first and spank the daylights out of her. But during the fight, JonBenet takes a hard blow that cracks her skull.
Patsy sees JonBenet crumpled on the floor.
PATSY: "That won't work, you little faker. You're in big trouble."
She picks JonBenet up and lays her on the bed. But she's so limp.
PATSY: "I said, cut it out."
Nothing. JonBenet is in shock and doesn't seem to be breathing.
PATSY (anger replaced by worry): "JonBenet Patricia Ramsey, you cut that out right now. Baby? (Now panicked): BABY?! PLEASE say something! Oh, GOD, I didn't mean to! No, oh, God, no! Not my baby!"
John comes in.
JOHN: "What the hell is going on in here?!"
Patsy turns. Her eyes are full of tears and hate. She blitzes him.
PATSY: "YOU BA*****!"
He grabs her wrists. "Are you crazy?!" He sees JonBenet. "What did you do?!"
PATSY: "Me?! You couldn't get it from me, so you took her! And I believed YOU!"
JOHN: "You stupid, crazy b****! I have to save her!"
PATSY: "It's too late now! She's dead!"
JOHN: "NO! That's impossible!" (Keep in mind, John's lost Beth.)
PATSY: "I'll see you rot for this!"
JOHN: "How?! You killed her."
Patsy fights until she's fought-out. She collapses to the floor, sobbing.
JOHN: "Honey..."
PATSY: "We can't leave her like this. She's so beautiful. like an angel. She deserves better."
JOHN: "I can't believe this. Burke...what will happen to him?"
PATSY: "He can't ever know about this. He can't think we killed JonBenet."
JOHN: "How do we make this right?"
PATSY: "I thought you were the big expert!"
JOHN: "Shut up! I'm trying to think."
PATSY: "What kind of person would do this?"
JOHN: "The kind we saw in the Navy. Damn, I wish I could remember who they were."
And it just spirals from there. Putting anything they can think of into a possible scenario, they stage a scene. But Patsy's dramatic flair puts it over the top. John, wracked with guilt, knows she hangs by a hair, so he says nothing. He also knows that the truth will put them in prison where the inmates will do horrible things to them...
PATSY: "What kind of knot do we use?"
JOHN: "Do it yourself."
Patsy ties a sloppy noose and sloppier wrist ties.
JOHN: "I can't even look at her like that."
They think about bundling her up to dump, but it's too risky. In the basement.
PATSY: "Wouldn't she have been messed with down there?"
JOHN: "Don't ask me to--"
PATSY: "You already DID! That's how we got into this mess."
JOHN: "I can't touch her like this." He uses the brush to avoid touching her privates. His fibers end up on her, having scuffed off his sleeve on her clothing when he pulls his arm back. "Can you write left-handed?"
PATSY: "Yeah, but--"
JOHN: "Come on."
John dictates part of the note, she writes. At this point, she's caught up in this. Her greatest pageant, her greatest adventure. It's exhilarating.

I did you a favor, Anti-K. You didn't have to pay to read it, like most people do.