Patsy's deft two-step

[SAGsun]

John Ramsey is no fool and even a fool could have seen JonBenet was dead. He knew she was dead as he carried her up the stairs, how could he not...her body was stiff from rigor mortis and her lips were blue.

Why bring her upstairs? It just seemed like some sort of a presentation, to me.

There's such a big deal about his trying to protect Patsy/Burke, by making flight plans immediately. If he's so concerned, why present Patsy with the dead JonBenet? I understand the muddled thought process of a brain in crisis, but, this I can't comprehend.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

He brought her upstairs to contaminate the crime scene. He would have known the second he touched JB that she dead and gone and past the point of saving...if her rigor mortis hadn't tipped him off, the coolness of her skin should have. If he had really wanted to spare Patsy from having to see her daughter dead and lifeless, he would have come back upstairs quietly and sought out Arndt to let her know - without Patsy hearing - that JonBenet had been found downstairs and it appeared as though the situation was bleak. The fact that he snatched her up and carried up the steps like a doll around the waist yelling his head off tells me that he was acting out a scam to pollute the evidence because the evidence pointed directly to RDI.

 

[Brefie]

You're gonna believe what you wanna believe. My guess is JR went into life-saving mode, and hadn't at that point concluded JBR was dead. Are you assuming he thought she was, when you don't really know?

Lurve the condescending tone - so try this - are you saying that when a child who is almost blue and as stiff as a board AND has a faint odor of decay, that a self made, very smart business man doesn't know she is dead?

That's insane.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Lurve the condescending tone - so try this - are you saying that when a child who is almost blue and as stiff as a board AND has a faint odor of decay, that a self made, very smart business man doesn't know she is dead?

That's insane.

I'm not JR's Monday morning QB. Besides, can't a child who is almost blue be resuscitated in some circumstances? Doesn't 'faint' mean 'barely detectable'?.

Go figure.

 

[Brefie]

I'm not JR's Monday morning QB.

Huh? Color me stupid - I have no idea what that means.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I'm not JR's Monday morning QB. Besides, can't a child who is almost blue be resuscitated in some circumstances? Doesn't 'faint' mean 'barely detectable'?.

Go figure.

There's no smell quite like the stench of decomposing flesh, and I'm certain even a faint odor of decay would have been detected by the girl's father as he bent over to see what he could do for her. And yes, a child turning blue can be resuscitated, provided she isn't giving off the reek of death and isn't *stiff as a board* from rigor mortis and cold to the touch! They said JonBenet's arms were raised up over her head completely stiff and defying gravity as John Ramsey carried her up the steps with his hands holding her around her waist. Are you going to tell us that maybe he didn't notice that she didn't sag at all as he lifted her off of the basement floor? He knew she was dead.

 

[tipper]

There's no smell quite like the stench of decomposing flesh, and I'm certain even a faint odor of decay would have been detected by the girl's father as he bent over to see what he could do for her. And yes, a child turning blue can be resuscitated, provided she isn't giving off the reek of death and isn't *stiff as a board* from rigor mortis and cold to the touch! They said JonBenet's arms were raised up over her head completely stiff and defying gravity as John Ramsey carried her up the steps with his hands holding her around her waist. Are you going to tell us that maybe he didn't notice that she didn't sag at all as he lifted her off of the basement floor? He knew she was dead.

Since she was obviously dead and everyone should have been acting logically; why did Fleet run up the stairs shouting for an ambulance?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Since she was obviously dead and everyone should have been acting logically; why did Fleet run up the stairs shouting for an ambulance?

I'm not saying that everyone should have been acting logically, I'm saying I believe John Ramsey knew his daughter was dead as soon as he lifted her off the floor (in fact, I think he knew even before) and carried her upstairs to contaminate the crime scene and evidence. I have no idea why Fleet shouted for an ambulance. I don't believe he was involved in JonBenet's murder, and if he participated in the cover-up, it was unwittingly.

 

[Leve]

Since she was obviously dead and everyone should have been acting logically; why did Fleet run up the stairs shouting for an ambulance?

From JR's 1997 interview, I get the impression that Fleet never got close to JBR in the wine cellar. As soon as JR opened the door he saw the white blanket, the light was off but he "may have" turned it on after seeing the blanket, he can't remember.

ST: Okay, And then you moved to your daughter. Did Fleet accompany you into that room?

JR: I don't remember him being there. But I remember later thinking I didn't hear Fleet scream or call for help or anything at all, and that frankly seemed odd, but I might have been just out of my mind, I don't know. I don't remember, I don't remember him, I mean once I went to that door.....and when I took those stairs, I don't remember where Fleet was.

It sounds to me like Fleet saw him discover the body and immediately ran upstairs to summon help while JR was removing the tape and ropes. A perfectly logical and innocent reaction. Fleet never got close enough to feel or smell her - so he may well have not known she was dead.

It continues:

TT: John, again I'm not sure if I got the sequence right. You talked about you screamed also, and Patsy talked about that too. Does that mean when you first went throgh the door?

JR: No, this was when I was carrying her upstairs, as I came out the door. I just remember him (Fleet White) screaming.

 

[tipper]

From JR's 1997 interview, I get the impression that Fleet never got close to JBR in the wine cellar. As soon as JR opened the door he saw the white blanket, the light was off but he "may have" turned it on after seeing the blanket, he can't remember.

ST: Okay, And then you moved to your daughter. Did Fleet accompany you into that room?

JR: I don't remember him being there. But I remember later thinking I didn't hear Fleet scream or call for help or anything at all, and that frankly seemed odd, but I might have been just out of my mind, I don't know. I don't remember, I don't remember him, I mean once I went to that door.....and when I took those stairs, I don't remember where Fleet was.

It sounds to me like Fleet saw him discover the body and immediately ran upstairs to summon help while JR was removing the tape and ropes. A perfectly logical and innocent reaction. Fleet never got close enough to feel or smell her - so he may well have not known she was dead.

It continues:

TT: John, again I'm not sure if I got the sequence right. You talked about you screamed also, and Patsy talked about that too. Does that mean when you first went throgh the door?

JR: No, this was when I was carrying her upstairs, as I came out the door. I just remember him (Fleet White) screaming.

From ACR:
04-18-2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation"

Page 28:

"Earlier when White had opened that same door, he had been unable to see anything in the stygian darkness. John Ramsey was kneeling beside his daughter, feeling her ashen face. A piece of black duct tape lay on the blanket, and a long cord was attached to her right wrist. Nearby was a pink nightgown. White, who had never before touched a dead person, felt JonBenet's cold ankle, turned, and ran for help. picked up his daughter, who had been carefully wrapped, papoose-like, in a white blanket, and followed.

 

[sharpar]

You couldn't, or at least you shouldn't, get a conviction even with a signed confession. After-the-fact behavior just doesn't make a case.

Since there's no evidence of any such activity, there's really no case. I'm not sure if an opened dictionary or an eaten pineapple provide evidence of an accident coverup on their own.

No Evidence - What exactly would you call a dead six year old in the basement of her home ? She didn't commit sucide, it was not a natural death,
and obviously no accident that she was placed in the basement. That only leaves one other option - MURDER . Since her parents and her brother were the only ones in the house with her after 10 pm or whenever it was they got home then that makes them suspects and their behavior is subject to speculation. LE had very good reason to suspect them of the crime and they did nothing to eliminate themselves as suspects.

I am always reminded of the characters in The Great Gatsby, Tom and Daisy . They wrecked havoc in many people's lives and then retreat back into their money or their vast carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together. Tom and Daisy go on a world cruise and P & J move to Atlanta.

 

[narlacat]

Since she was obviously dead and everyone should have been acting logically; why did Fleet run up the stairs shouting for an ambulance?

My understanding is John told Fleet to call an ambulance.

 

[narlacat]

My understanding is John told Fleet to call an ambulance.

Well, I just checked PMPT and no, John didnt tell Fleet to call an ambulance, I was wrong.
Still, I do believe John Ramsey knew she was dead as he carried her up the stairs and to ask Arndt if she was dead was just ridiculous, it was so obvious she was dead.
Fleet was not the one who carried JonBenet up the stairs, it wasn't him who felt how stiff she was. He had only touched her foot as she lay on the floor in the basement.

 

[tipper]

From Crimelibrary.com:
On the morning of January 21, 1998, the Crowe family of Escondido, California awoke to a horrific nightmare. Family members found 12-year-old Stephanie Crowe lying on her bedroom floor drenched in blood. She had been stabbed approximately nine times at some point in the late evening or early morning hours. The police were immediately called to the scene. As word spread throughout the community, everyone wondered who was responsible for committing such a horrendous act. It didn't take the police long to answer that question.

 

[capps]

Quote from Narlacat:
"Still, I do believe John Ramsey knew she was dead as he carried her up the stairs and to ask Arndt if she was dead was just ridiculous, it was so obvious she was dead."

Of course in his heart he knew she was dead,he just didn't want to believe it. The man was in shock and pain.

 

[Nehemiah]

From Crimelibrary.com:
On the morning of January 21, 1998, the Crowe family of Escondido, California awoke to a horrific nightmare. Family members found 12-year-old Stephanie Crowe lying on her bedroom floor drenched in blood. She had been stabbed approximately nine times at some point in the late evening or early morning hours. The police were immediately called to the scene. As word spread throughout the community, everyone wondered who was responsible for committing such a horrendous act. It didn't take the police long to answer that question.

Who was responsible?

 

[Brefie]

Who was responsible?

Is this the case where they charged her brother and years later found him to be innocent?

 

[tipper]

Is this the case where they charged her brother and years later found him to be innocent?

Almost.



http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/coerced_confessions/6.html

[...]
After Stephanie's body was discovered, the police separately interviewed each member of the entire Crowe family. They specifically focused their attention on Stephanie's 14-year-old brother Michael, who was questioned for 27 hours over a 3-day period, Patricia Smith reported in a 2003 New York Times Upfront article. They also extensively interviewed two of his closest friends.
By the time the interrogations ended, the police had obtained a confession from Michael and one of his friends and "enough incriminating evidence from the third boy to file murder charges against them all," Edward Humes said in a 2004 Knight Ridder/Tribune Service article. Although the boys allegedly confessed, there was a great deal of doubt concerning the accuracy of their statements and the method used to get them. According to Humes, the police "used lies, false promises, isolation from parents and attorneys, even threats of adult prison and predatory older inmates" as persuasive techniques to get a confession.

The manner in which the boys claimed to have been interviewed prompted an investigation to determine whether they were or were not coerced into confession. False confession expert Richard Leo analyzed the videotaped interrogations and came to a shocking conclusion. Leo determined that the interrogations were "textbook example(s) of how not to question suspects, finding that it amounted to a form of 'psychological torture' so coercive that the boys would have said almost anything to make it stop." Before the murder trial even began, all charges against the boys were dropped because it became evident they had nothing to do with Stephanie's murder. The boys' exoneration rested on one key piece of evidence.

Court TV's Harriet Ryan reported that on the eve of the trial, DNA tests conducted on a 28-year-old mentally ill homeless man's clothes revealed Stephanie's blood.
[...]

 

[narlacat]

Quote from Narlacat:
"Still, I do believe John Ramsey knew she was dead as he carried her up the stairs and to ask Arndt if she was dead was just ridiculous, it was so obvious she was dead."

Of course in his heart he knew she was dead,he just didn't want to believe it. The man was in shock and pain.

I've always thought that by John Ramsey asking Arndt if JonBenet was dead, he was filling in a moment.
IMO, it was such a crucial moment....both John and Patsy knew JonBenet was dead, they knew there had been no kidnapping, they knew that somehow at some stage they would have to face the moment when her body was found in their basement. The moment had come and I think that was the best John could come up with to fill in the silence of that moment.
I think by them inviting everyone over that morning, was to have more people around than just themselves so as to take the pressure off and to add a little confusion and hysteria.
It reminds me of when you were a kid and you had done something naughty and you knew when you went home you would have been found out and in trouble, so what do you do?? Take a friend with you! The logic being surely Mum won't say anything about that when I've brought a friend home....

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Okay, if I was in life-saving mode, I still wouldn't move someone, you do CPR where they are- they might have a broken back or such.

If you ever find someone not breathing in a basement, you might consider moving them (and yourself) to fresh air.