"personal hygeine" of JB

[JMO8778]

Something else that comes to mind is that JB had dusty feet...so what if Patsy made her walk to the basement with her to get clean sheets or a blanket,and they were struggling there,what if Patsy even had her use the toilet in the basement,and that's when the scream was heard??

 

[Toltec]

Douching???

Get off it...who in their right mind would douch a six-year-old baby?

Patsy had her faults...her mothering was questionable....BUT she would never think to douch her daughter because she wet the bed. She is not Sybil's mother for crying out loud!

Patsy placed Desitin on JonBenet's "diaper rash"...nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Ames]

Something else that comes to mind is that JB had dusty feet...so what if Patsy made her walk to the basement with her to get clean sheets or a blanket,and they were struggling there,what if Patsy even had her use the toilet in the basement,and that's when the scream was heard??

Hmmmm..could be.

 

[Ames]

Douching???

Get off it...who in their right mind would douch a six-year-old baby?

Patsy had her faults...her mothering was questionable....BUT she would never think to douch her daughter because she wet the bed. She is not Sybil's mother for crying out loud!

Patsy placed Desitin on JonBenet's "diaper rash"...nothing more, nothing less.

Toltec...settle down...we are just speculating like you are....none of us were actually there...(unless there is something that you aren't telling us...LOL)...so nobody but the Ramsey's...know for sure.

 

[armywife210]

Toltec
To tell you the truth it makes a lot more sense than anything else I have heard. JB had some vaginal trauma... and I really don't feel JR was sexually abusing her.

Don't jump all over and belittle our thoughts and beliefs. I have never done that to you. Have some consideration. I believe she was douched. Frequent douching in an adult will cause infections! It's formulated for an adult. In a child it would most definately cause infections. I believe there is substantial proof. I dug out my book and reread what was said in there and it seems that I am not the only one that thinks that. To be honest, I think it was done to Patsy when she was little. And it isn't unheard of... wrong but not unheard of.
And I think that night was due to soiling.... either earlier in the day (maybe right before they left for the whites and didn't have time.... but she may have said "when we get home..."), when they got home, or both. If it was both, perhaps that is why her anger increased.

And certainly you have no more concrete knowledge than anyone else regarding the "diaper rash...desitin...nothing more, nothing less". This is a discussion board. There is no reason for you to act as though you are intellectually superior and have inside information.

 

[calicocat]

but with her shirt collar being twisted,and the knuckle abrasions on her,it would seem she was being forced to stand up and be still,probably in the bathroom?that would also along w/ Patsy saying she had flashbacks of JB screaming.Some kind of struggle occured.

This is interesting to me...I had not heard this before. I wonder if Patsy could have been so irritated with JonBenet that evening, for whatever reason, bed-wetting, not going to sleep, etc., that she grabbed JonBenet by her shirt collar, twisting it so tight that it left abrasions from her knuckles, and while dragging her to a destination in the house, the bathroom, her bedroom, the basement, unknowingly strangled her?

 

[DeeDee249]

Armywife- you're bathroom douching/rage theory does make a lot of sense. I don't agree about the head wound resulting from hitting a tub/sink, but was the result of hitting her with the flashlight. Either way, the bathroom scenario is plausible. The only thing that gives me pause is that BR was supposedly close by in his room when this occured. Unless he was still in the living room playing with his toys...or unless he had heard the bathroom-screaming event many times before.
I've never thought the murder itself was a sex crime. The vaginal stab was done to hide previous abuse, but I also feel that using an adult-size douche apparatus on a 6-year old girl would certainly cause the bruising, erosion and injuries as well.
If people that actually knew PR say she douched her daughter- then I believe she did. It sounds like it fits her controlling relationship with JBR. I can totally see it being done to "persuede" JBR to stop soiling her pants.
Though I would hope any vaginal swabs taken at autopsy would indicate it, and as far as I have read, there's no evidence of any chemicals, including vinegar, though she could have used plain water.

 

[armywife210]

Armywife- you're bathroom douching/rage theory does make a lot of sense. I don't agree about the head wound resulting from hitting a tub/sink, but was the result of hitting her with the flashlight. Either way, the bathroom scenario is plausible. The only thing that gives me pause is that BR was supposedly close by in his room when this occured. Unless he was still in the living room playing with his toys...or unless he had heard the bathroom-screaming event many times before.
I've never thought the murder itself was a sex crime. The vaginal stab was done to hide previous abuse, but I also feel that using an adult-size douche apparatus on a 6-year old girl would certainly cause the bruising, erosion and injuries as well.
If people that actually knew PR say she douched her daughter- then I believe she did. It sounds like it fits her controlling relationship with JBR. I can totally see it being done to "persuede" JBR to stop soiling her pants.
Though I would hope any vaginal swabs taken at autopsy would indicate it, and as far as I have read, there's no evidence of any chemicals, including vinegar, though she could have used plain water.

The crack in her skull ... the bash, definately came from the flashlight or something. That was rage. I am talking about the fracture above her right ear though as far as whacking in on the way down on something.

John Ramsey said that he and Burke were downstairs playing with his train for a little bit when they got home. It could have happened then. Jonbenet didn't go to bed that night IMO. But I think the yelling between Patsy and JB was frequent. It is possible that when the episode began JR took Burke downstairs so he didn't have to hear it... of course I don't think JR expected it to get to that level of rage.

Patsy Ramsey could have seen the blood coming from her and filled the disposable douche with water afterward and rinsed her out that way. At that point it might have not even been a cover up, maybe just rinsing her out afterward.

 

[Solace]

The crack in her skull ... the bash, definately came from the flashlight or something. That was rage. I am talking about the fracture above her right ear though as far as whacking in on the way down on something.

John Ramsey said that he and Burke were downstairs playing with his train for a little bit when they got home. It could have happened then. Jonbenet didn't go to bed that night IMO. But I think the yelling between Patsy and JB was frequent. It is possible that when the episode began JR took Burke downstairs so he didn't have to hear it... of course I don't think JR expected it to get to that level of rage.

Patsy Ramsey could have seen the blood coming from her and filled the disposable douche with water afterward and rinsed her out that way. At that point it might have not even been a cover up, maybe just rinsing her out afterward.

JB's bed DOES NOT look slept in at all.

 

[armywife210]

Solace, I agree completely.

 

[comfort80]

i have never heard of corporal cleansing, why on earth would anyone do that, or even think to do such a thing.

 

[BOESP]

i have never heard of corporal cleansing, why on earth would anyone do that, or even think to do such a thing.

What is corporal cleansing???? I know Steve Thomas used the term but I can't figure out what he meant.

 

[SadieMae]

i have never heard of corporal cleansing, why on earth would anyone do that, or even think to do such a thing.

My thoughts exactly...makes me ill thinking about it.

 

[Solace]

My thoughts exactly...makes me ill thinking about it.

Lets not forget that Patsy had Stage IV ovarian cancer. Who knows what she thought could happen from JB constantly having rashes and being uncomfortable. I could definitely see her doing this in order to train her. Not only for hygiene but also because it is exhausting to have to take care of a six year old as you would a toddler.

Remember she is now 6 years old and is wetting her bed and also Patsy uses Desitin ointment on her. This is from Patsy's own mouth. The housekeeper said there were daily fights in the bathroom. I realize this is hearsay, but there may be truth in it. CK says she heard (again hearsay) that douching was a common practice. She is a respected poster and I choose to believe it only because it goes along with the other "facts". That means nothing, just something I think happened. I don't think this is an "out there" occurrence. I think it could very well have happened with Patsy and her history. I mean she was still wearing pull ups. The package was right there in the open with the pull ups hanging out. Patsy said she was packing some for the trip. Steve Thomas thinks otherwise - that she was annoyed that evening over a bed wetting incident.

 

[coloradokares]

i have never heard of corporal cleansing, why on earth would anyone do that, or even think to do such a thing.

I would consider the whole picture, we know Nedra considered Jon Benet only a little molested. How far a reach is it than to come to that ??? Patsy was maybe doing what she knew. The bathroom issues were far from normal for Jon Benet and that is by all accounts . LHP told of the screaming and Steve Thomas labled it corporal cleaning. The sex abuse ifficer Holly Smith said all the signs and warning flags were there. The reason it is so unbelievable is no one can wrap their head around this. But it none the less does not make it less so just because it is incomprehensible to those of us who had normal childhoods and went on to be normal parents,

 

[SadieMae]

Lets not forget that Patsy had Stage IV ovarian cancer. Who knows what she thought could happen from JB constantly having rashes and being uncomfortable. I could definitely see her doing this in order to train her. Not only for hygiene but also because it is exhausting to have to take care of a six year old as you would a toddler.

Remember she is now 6 years old and is wetting her bed and also Patsy uses Desitin ointment on her. This is from Patsy's own mouth. The housekeeper said there were daily fights in the bathroom. I realize this is hearsay, but there may be truth in it. CK says she heard (again hearsay) that douching was a common practice. She is a respected poster and I choose to believe it only because it goes along with the other "facts". That means nothing, just something I think happened. I don't think this is an "out there" occurrence. I think it could very well have happened with Patsy and her history. I mean she was still wearing pull ups. The package was right there in the open with the pull ups hanging out. Patsy said she was packing some for the trip. Steve Thomas thinks otherwise - that she was annoyed that evening over a bed wetting incident.

Hygiene? What on earth could a 6 year old need a douche for hygiene? She's not sexually active, not at the age to have periods....I just don't get Patsy's reasoning (or lack thereof). The pullups keep a child pretty dry, just like the Pampers do, so I don't see how she would have diaper rash. I haven't followed all the threads on this case...but boy Pasty was sure out there! JMO.

 

[comfort80]

wouldn't doing this on a fairly regular basis be considered abuse on its own.
i've heard that child victims of sexual abuse have a habit of wetting their beds, or having accidents, wouldn't the experience of this "corporal cleansing" aggravate, and/or escalate this wetting issue?
i would never think to embarrass, or hurt/abuse my daughter as a means to eliminate accidents such as those.

 

[coloradokares]

wouldn't doing this on a fairly regular basis be considered abuse on its own.
i've heard that child victims of sexual abuse have a habit of wetting their beds, or having accidents, wouldn't the experience of this "corporal cleansing" aggravate, and/or escalate this wetting issue?
i would never think to embarrass, or hurt/abuse my daughter as a means to eliminate accidents such as those.

No, you nor I would but we were not living Jon Benets life. Sexual abuse Officer Holly Smith said every sign was there in her inverview with Julie Hayden, the soiled undies in every drawer they found is a clear sign and there were others.

 

[Ames]

I read that books SO long ago. I have ADHD and cannot remember books after I read them. My husband laughs at me because I can watch "Golden
Girls" over and over and over again..... and not realize that I have seen the episodes a hundred times. :crazy:
Ok, so I am coming upon a whole scenerio of what I think happened. But before I share it with all of ya.... do we know which pants were on the bathroom floor with the soiled underwear? And do we know for fact which pants she was wearing that night? The only difference it really makes is if she changed when she got home that night.
That poor little girl....
And as a side note, I don't think she was ever sexually abused.... the douching applicator is what left the various stages of trauma and the scarring. The paint brush was used to try to cover it up after the fact.
The physical abuse from Patsy and the enabling from John was bad enough.

16 TOM HANEY: How about 378?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is JonBenet's floor, her
18 pants.
19 TOM HANEY: Do you recall those particular
20 pants, when she would have worn those last?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure. Probably
22 recently because they are dropped in the middle of the
23 floor, but I don't remember exactly.
24 TOM HANEY: They are kind of inside out.
0457
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
0457
1 TOM HANEY: 379 is a close up of it. It
2 appears they are stained.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

These pants with the stained underwear were found on her bedroom floor...and Patsy says that they probably were worn recently. (I sure would hope she wouldn't just leave soiled underwear lying around for DAYS!) Anyway...I would love to know if THESE are the pants that she wore to bed (and not the long johns as Patsys says)...and if she soiled them during the night. Otherwise, why on earth would she have just left them on the floor like that??

 

[CarpeDiem]

wouldn't doing this on a fairly regular basis be considered abuse on its own.
i've heard that child victims of sexual abuse have a habit of wetting their beds, or having accidents, wouldn't the experience of this "corporal cleansing" aggravate, and/or escalate this wetting issue?
i would never think to embarrass, or hurt/abuse my daughter as a means to eliminate accidents such as those.

Me either. Some parents do just freak over bed-wetting. I don't get it, it's often a normal part of growing. I've seen it with neighbors, friends, family. Remember the great actor and director Michael Landon (Pa on Little House on the Prarie)? His Mother did horrible things to him over bed-wetting.