"personal hygeine" of JB

[BOESP]

wouldn't doing this on a fairly regular basis be considered abuse on its own.
i've heard that child victims of sexual abuse have a habit of wetting their beds, or having accidents, wouldn't the experience of this "corporal cleansing" aggravate, and/or escalate this wetting issue?
i would never think to embarrass, or hurt/abuse my daughter as a means to eliminate accidents such as those.

Yes, comfort80, depending on age and other factors, bedwetting can be a sign of sexual abuse. There are many, many studies that support this. Boys, on average, tend to be slower in potty training habits but, generally, children are coming along well with potty training by two years to four years old with occasional accidents at night. It can vary by child, their sex (male or female) and circumstances. A healthy, intelligent female child is unlikely to have regular bed-wetting accidents at nearly six and a half years old. There is usually an underlying reason.

The description from the autopsy suggests JonBenet was molested or abused but perhaps not for sexual gratification by an adult male. I suspect a male child molester would leave far more damage than was seen on JonBenet.

 

[Ames]

Me either. Some parents do just freak over bed-wetting. I don't get it, it's often a normal part of growing. I've seen it with neighbors, friends, family. Remember the great actor and director Michael Landon (Pa on Little House on the Prarie)? His Mother did horrible things to him over bed-wetting.

I watched a movie about him, and yes...his mother did some cruel things to him, all because he wet the bed.

 

[Ames]

Yes, comfort80, depending on age and other factors, bedwetting can be a sign of sexual abuse. There are many, many studies that support this. Boys, on average, tend to be slower in potty training habits but, generally, children are coming along well with potty training by two years to four years old with occasional accidents at night. It can vary by child, their sex (male or female) and circumstances. A healthy, intelligent female child is unlikely to have regular bed-wetting accidents at nearly six and a half years old. There is usually an underlying reason.

The description from the autopsy suggests JonBenet was molested or abused but perhaps not for sexual gratification by an adult male. I suspect a male child molester would leave far more damage than was seen on JonBenet.

I think so too. Any intruder, so mean and cruel..and satanic enough to crush her skull and garotte her....well, there is NO telling what he (if HE really existed)...would have done to her internally in her private parts....(I hate the V word)....she would have been mutilated, or at least close to it... I am sure. IMO

 

[armywife210]

Hygiene? What on earth could a 6 year old need a douche for hygiene? She's not sexually active, not at the age to have periods....I just don't get Patsy's reasoning (or lack thereof). The pullups keep a child pretty dry, just like the Pampers do, so I don't see how she would have diaper rash. I haven't followed all the threads on this case...but boy Pasty was sure out there! JMO.

I think the douching was more for soiling... and for not wiping. Because (I do not believe this is necessary, but more a scare tactic)... Patsy could have said "as long as you are going to poop in your pants, I will have to clean you out"... or something of the sort. Maybe in her twisted mind she thought it would be the best way to ensure that she got no fecal matter up inside her. Maybe it was used as a scare tactic. I know JB hated wiping. Somewhere it was said by many people that knew her that she still called people in to the bathroom to wipe her.
I think the JB just didn't wipe herself....ever. If no one was around to help, or wanted to help, she would just pull her pants back up and move on. Because Patsy wasn't a real clean person she didn't notice it right away (certainly if douching is the price to pay for not wiping and soiling yourself, any 6 year old would keep the secret as long as possible). If she had a rash, it was probably because of the fecal matter sitting on her skin.... and also not bathing frequently. I honestly don't think Patsy would have bathed her after just wetting herself. Maybe she would give her a quick wipe down (and even that's doubtful in my mind), but that's it. I cannot see Patsy bathing her because JB wet herself.
So... douching it was for soiling herself.

 

[SadieMae]

I think the douching was more for soiling... and for not wiping. Because (I do not believe this is necessary, but more a scare tactic)... Patsy could have said "as long as you are going to poop in your pants, I will have to clean you out"... or something of the sort. Maybe in her twisted mind she thought it would be the best way to ensure that she got no fecal matter up inside her. Maybe it was used as a scare tactic. I know JB hated wiping. Somewhere it was said by many people that knew her that she still called people in to the bathroom to wipe her.
I think the JB just didn't wipe herself....ever. If no one was around to help, or wanted to help, she would just pull her pants back up and move on. Because Patsy wasn't a real clean person she didn't notice it right away (certainly if douching is the price to pay for not wiping and soiling yourself, any 6 year old would keep the secret as long as possible). If she had a rash, it was probably because of the fecal matter sitting on her skin.... and also not bathing frequently. I honestly don't think Patsy would have bathed her after just wetting herself. Maybe she would give her a quick wipe down (and even that's doubtful in my mind), but that's it. I cannot see Patsy bathing her because JB wet herself.
So... douching it was for soiling herself.

That's sick. She was only 6! I can't even see that as punishment. I had that problem with my youngest, not wiping enough, until he was 5. I never made a huge deal of it. I'd just stand him the bathtub, wash him and move on. I was always pullling the back of his wasteband to check him for smelly butt. Or, go in the bathroom with him to remind him to wipe and check that he "got it all". PR was a sick woman IMO.

 

[fox1950]

From a doctor friend of mine: "Douching can cause constant irritation just as constant hand washing will cause the hands to become chapped and red. Douching to much will lead to infections--because of the constant irritation. Women who douch too much can cause irregular cells in the area which will lead to more pronounced treatment such as strapping (?) of the area and prescription treatment. Douching if done should not be done on a regular basis."

 

[BOESP]

That's sick. She was only 6! I can't even see that as punishment. I had that problem with my youngest, not wiping enough, until he was 5. I never made a huge deal of it. I'd just stand him the bathtub, wash him and move on. I was always pullling the back of his wasteband to check him for smelly butt. Or, go in the bathroom with him to remind him to wipe and check that he "got it all". PR was a sick woman IMO.

I wish Steve Thomas had been clearer by what he meant with "corporal cleaning." Also, Patsy and her sister Pam mentioned giving JonBenet a "pageant scrub." I'm sure it wasn't as bad as it sounds but gee whiz. Clean is clean. Why scrub?

I would cut some slack for a six-year-old child having problems wiping. If you think about it, it is hard to reach for toilet tissue while trying to hold a size 4 butt up on an adult toilet seat to keep from falling through, then you have to bend around to wipe on top of all that. That is hard for a little kid with a little-kid-sized butt to maneuver. I suppose they could jump off the seat and wipe, but I didn't find it odd that a six-year-old needed help in that department.

 

[Solace]

I wish Steve Thomas had been clearer by what he meant with "corporal cleaning." Also, Patsy and her sister Pam mentioned giving JonBenet a "pageant scrub." I'm sure it wasn't as bad as it sounds but gee whiz. Clean is clean. Why scrub?

I would cut some slack for a six-year-old child having problems wiping. If you think about it, it is hard to reach for toilet tissue while trying to hold a size 4 butt up on an adult toilet seat to keep from falling through, then you have to bend around to wipe on top of all that. That is hard for a little kid with a little-kid-sized butt to maneuver. I suppose they could jump off the seat and wipe, but I didn't find it odd that a six-year-old needed help in that department.

It would not surprise me at all. that is young.

 

[armywife210]

My oldest girl had an issue with not wanting/being able to wipe. I would just do a "once over" as we would call it. I guess I just treasure every second with my girls too much to make this into an issue. I kept her clean and she grew out of it. She also wet the bed almost every night until she was 8. This was genetic. I never had this problem, but one of my brothers did for a long time. Again, it was a fight not worth fighting, and I knew she couldn't help it anyway. My kids are also bath addicts and always have been. Every day they are in the tub.

The problem is that Patsy wasn't like a lot of parents.
I truly do believe that Patsy was handed down a lot of mothering techniques. I really don't think she considered herself to be abusive or sick by douching her daughter... because I think it is what her mother did to her. She would just go and get one from her bathroom and do what she needed to do.

I don't think Patsy was a terrible person. I think she had mental illnesses that went untreated and she would go into blind rages. And I think she got a lot of her mothering techniques from her mother.

Yes, douching is not recommended more than once a month, and not for children. It kills your body's natural defense against harmful bacteria.

 

[JMO8778]

It seems to me that douching could also indicate sexual abuse,even if it was just digital...it could have been a 'mental cleaning' of sorts,for Patsy...she cleans her...it's undone to her,in a way.Or at least she feels better about it after cleaning her.

 

[JMO8778]

I wish Steve Thomas had been clearer by what he meant with "corporal cleaning." Also, Patsy and her sister Pam mentioned giving JonBenet a "pageant scrub." I'm sure it wasn't as bad as it sounds but gee whiz. Clean is clean. Why scrub?

I thought maybe they meant her nails,underneath them,and whatever dirty spots didn't get all the way clean in the tub.Or rather just making sure she was spic and span,head to toe.Kids can get so dirty playing,esp if she had a sandbox(I don't know if she did though).

I would cut some slack for a six-year-old child having problems wiping. If you think about it, it is hard to reach for toilet tissue while trying to hold a size 4 butt up on an adult toilet seat to keep from falling through, then you have to bend around to wipe on top of all that. That is hard for a little kid with a little-kid-sized butt to maneuver. I suppose they could jump off the seat and wipe, but I didn't find it odd that a six-year-old needed help in that department.

me either,esp as small as she was.

 

[armywife210]

I didn't know what corporal cleaning was either when I read the book, and I think that's why I forgot about it... it didn't make that much of an impact on me. "so what, she was bathed" was my thought. This is why I had forgotten about it. I have ADHD so if I don't "get" something immediately or see it's importance, I forget about it totally. Then somewhere down the line it will hit me like a freight train. It always happens to me. hehe The other day (the day I started this thread), I had suddenly remembered something being said awhile back about JB being douched. That's why I began this thread....
it just suddenly seemed to clear a lot of really big oddities for me, and a likely scenerio began to come together. To some it may not be likely... but to me it makes things fit together a lot better.

 

[UKGuy]

I didn't know what corporal cleaning was either when I read the book, and I think that's why I forgot about it... it didn't make that much of an impact on me. "so what, she was bathed" was my thought. This is why I had forgotten about it. I have ADHD so if I don't "get" something immediately or see it's importance, I forget about it totally. Then somewhere down the line it will hit me like a freight train. It always happens to me. hehe The other day (the day I started this thread), I had suddenly remembered something being said awhile back about JB being douched. That's why I began this thread....
it just suddenly seemed to clear a lot of really big oddities for me, and a likely scenerio began to come together. To some it may not be likely... but to me it makes things fit together a lot better.

armywife210,

Every theory seems to fit in somewhere, even the intruder theory seemed sound when elaborated upon by Lou Smit. Even if JonBenet was being douched it may only explain some of JonBenet's behaviour, but not it all? Steve Thomas offered no evidence for his corporal punishment theory, he actually admits there is nothing conclusive, its simply law enforcement speculation, safe theories to pad out his book.

Patsy was never too concerned about JonBenet's general lack of hygiene, would not any mother be mortified if a male family friend returned her daughter along with wet/soiled underwear in a bag? It was never a big deal for Patsy probably just another stage for JonBenet to pass through as did Burke. JonBenet's stained underwear in her underwear drawer are testament to Patsy's indifference, any daughter of mine would have new/clean underwear to replace any stained pairs, but not Patsy, she never bothered, yet she was married to a millionaire and could afford to dress JonBenet in a brand new pair of underwear daily.

So why should she become so serious about hygiene that JonBenet at 6-years old must be douched, when she does not care in other circumstances?

Also JonBenet asking non-family members to wipe her down is a big red-flag for me, this is JonBenet displaying a lack of any personal boundary.

.

 

[Toltec]

Toltec
To tell you the truth it makes a lot more sense than anything else I have heard. JB had some vaginal trauma... and I really don't feel JR was sexually abusing her.

Don't jump all over and belittle our thoughts and beliefs. I have never done that to you. Have some consideration. I believe she was douched. Frequent douching in an adult will cause infections! It's formulated for an adult. In a child it would most definately cause infections. I believe there is substantial proof. I dug out my book and reread what was said in there and it seems that I am not the only one that thinks that. To be honest, I think it was done to Patsy when she was little. And it isn't unheard of... wrong but not unheard of.
And I think that night was due to soiling.... either earlier in the day (maybe right before they left for the whites and didn't have time.... but she may have said "when we get home..."), when they got home, or both. If it was both, perhaps that is why her anger increased.

And certainly you have no more concrete knowledge than anyone else regarding the "diaper rash...desitin...nothing more, nothing less". This is a discussion board. There is no reason for you to act as though you are intellectually superior and have inside information.

Boy, you took my comments as a personal affront to you! I don't know you, you don't know me....and frankly in the many years I've been posting here, I don't ever recall douching being discussed here..

What's the next thread going to be called....corporal punishment... enemas?

 

[DeeDee249]

Many little girls don't do a good job of personal cleansing after using the toilet. Urinary tract infections (UTIs) are fairly common in situations like that. When a child of that age soils her pants by actually deficating in them (as opposed to the staining that occurs with improper wiping) it's far more serious in terms of infections in the vaginal area. I can totally see PR using douching as a means of cleaning JBR in that area. Now, I have not seen any proof of this, it's speculation, but I can see her doing it. Of course, making sure your kid has a daily bath would also help the situation! My daughter at that age LOVED the bath. She played in there till she looked like a prune. It seems JBR had real avoidance issues with the bathroom. It's interesting to speculate why. She had to be forced to bathe and felt it more comfortable to soil her pants rather than use one of the several toilets in the house.
The fact that JBR has no personal boundaries IS troubling. But in reading interviews with both Nedra and PR, neither one of them seems troubled by this fact, and seem to think it's a common occurance for a 6-year old girl to ask ANY adult to wipe her bottom. Most kids that age don't even want their mothers in the bathroom with them.

 

[Albert18]

The important point is that there was a hygiene issue. I'm no expert on kids but it seems like a major problem to me. JonBenet was almost 6 1/2 years old at the time and we aren't just talking bedwetting.

There was physical evidence of the problem and witnesses.

We know the life JonBenet had to live as a 6 year old.

Burke apparently also had a problem until JonBenet came along and removed the stress from him.

This sounds like a mothering problem to me. I wish I could remember where I read it, but I remember one expert said the symptoms JonBenet exhibited can be caused by extreme stress, not sexual abuse.

 

[coloradokares]

Boy, you took my comments as a personal affront to you! I don't know you, you don't know me....and frankly in the many years I've been posting here, I don't ever recall douching being discussed here..

What's the next thread going to be called....corporal punishment... enemas?

I would not so quickly dismiss the toileting problems and where that led to, or not. This area was investigated by sexual abuse officer Holly Smith. So no this is not the first time this line of thought was mentioned and by officers who are trained to recognize and know. JMHO but its been discussed by Steve Thomas . And not new news

 

[Ames]

The important point is that there was a hygiene issue. I'm no expert on kids but it seems like a major problem to me. JonBenet was almost 6 1/2 years old at the time and we aren't just talking bedwetting.

There was physical evidence of the problem and witnesses.

We know the life JonBenet had to live as a 6 year old.

Burke apparently also had a problem until JonBenet came along and removed the stress from him.

This sounds like a mothering problem to me. I wish I could remember where I read it, but I remember one expert said the symptoms JonBenet exhibited can be caused by extreme stress, not sexual abuse.

This may sound farfetched....but, I wonder if she was getting tired of having to be in so many pageants...tired of having her hair curled...and performing all the time, and maybe if she soiled herself...in her mind...she wouldn't be perfect, and her mom would stop entering her in those pageants...that goes along with the stress. The stress of living with Patsy and those pageants...maybe she was just tired of it.

 

[Ames]

Boy, you took my comments as a personal affront to you! I don't know you, you don't know me....and frankly in the many years I've been posting here, I don't ever recall douching being discussed here..

What's the next thread going to be called....corporal punishment... enemas?

Toltec..are you dismissing the soiling herself issue, or the corporal punishment issue...or both?? Just curious...

 

[Toltec]

Toltec..are you dismissing the soiling herself issue, or the corporal punishment issue...or both?? Just curious...

I am not dismissing it Ames...just the discussion of douching. Patsy did have her hands full with her six-year-old still wetting the bed....

Let's not forget Linda Wilcox's statement that Burke wet the bed at that age too. John Ramsey told LE that his older children wet the bed....

A family of bedwetters.

Patsy was at the end of her rope Christmas night and JonBenet's soiled bottom and the fact that she would not cooperate when Patsy wanted to clean her up led to this horrible accident. That is my theory.

Why would Patsy douch JonBenet for soiling? JonBenet's genital area was wiped down with a cloth.

We know from the soiled pants in the bathroom that JonBenet's bottom was dirty. She did not bathe Christmas day. She changed into her Gap outfit for the dinner party at the Whites.

Now as to who dressed JonBenet is a question I have not heard answered. I don't recall LE asking Patsy if she personally dressed JonBenet that evening. I know they had a tiff over a red turtleneck but that is the extent of it.

I believe that there was no douching involved....you don't douch someone for soiling themselves. If douching was something Patsy did, I'm sure JonBenet would have brought something like that up to someone.