"personal hygeine" of JB

[UKGuy]

what if JR asked Patsy to get the items for him,and to break the paintbrush,etc? or what if they got on the rope bf it was tied,if she'd hugged her?
or turn it the other way around,why would JR's fibers be in her underwear if Patsy did the inflicted the head bash and strangulation?

JMO8778

Sure there are many scenarios to consider, but with JR's fibers in her clean underwear, this for me suggests, he cleaned her up and changed her stained size-6's not long after killing her?

Assuming there is enough forensic and circumstantial evidence to rule out an accident involving Patsy, then for her to enact some critical staging in the wine-cellar must point to her direct involvement?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Interesting and constructive, most of which may have occurred? As already mentioned, is Coroner Meyer's lack of clarity over the status of the garrote in her asphyxiation, since I reckon it was staging, are you agreeing but suggesting her asphyxiation was incidental, unintentional?

It has been suggested that during John's mid-morning absence he moved JonBenet's body and was going to redress her in the barbie-gown?

.

IMHO, the strangulation and garrotting was done for staging purposes, to provide a VISIBLE cause of death. Therefore, it was INTENTIONAL. My reason for believing this precisely because there was so little internal damage to the structures of the neck noted in the autopsy. While those photos may LOOK horrific, with that awful ligature furrow, the intact internal structure of the neck could indicate that this was not a fatal strangulation. The head blow, however, was a fatal blow, whether or not there was any other visible causes of death on the body. Mayer seems unsure himself, as he states "ligature strangulation ASSOCIATED with blunt force trauma to the head".

While I feel JR may have indeed moved the body closer to the door of the wineceller, livor mortis patterns indicate it was already fixed (non-blanching) and therefore it happened after LE and the R "posse" of supporters had arrived. Because the only room in the basement Officer French did NOT look in was the wineceller, so her body had to be in there. FW looked in there (he had the sense to undo the wood latch at the top of the door) but did not find the light switch do did not see her. It was only when JR moved her body closer that she was seen by looking in the room.

The Barbie nightgown, to use an R phrase, "was not supposed to be there". It came out of the basement dryer with the white blanket and was not noticed by the stagers. I do not believe she was going to be redressed in it, because if rigor had begun, they would have had a difficult time of undressing/redressing her. And I think if they had tried unsucessfully to do so, they would not have left the nightgown on the floor.

Like the pineapple in her intestines, the Barbie nightgown surprised the Rs when it was noted.

 

[Ames]

IMHO, the strangulation and garrotting was done for staging purposes, to provide a VISIBLE cause of death. Therefore, it was INTENTIONAL. My reason for believing this precisely because there was so little internal damage to the structures of the neck noted in the autopsy. While those photos may LOOK horrific, with that awful ligature furrow, the intact internal structure of the neck could indicate that this was not a fatal strangulation. The head blow, however, was a fatal blow, whether or not there was any other visible causes of death on the body. Mayer seems unsure himself, as he states "ligature strangulation ASSOCIATED with blunt force trauma to the head".

While I feel JR may have indeed moved the body closer to the door of the wineceller, livor mortis patterns indicate it was already fixed (non-blanching) and therefore it happened after LE and the R "posse" of supporters had arrived. Because the only room in the basement Officer French did NOT look in was the wineceller, so her body had to be in there. FW looked in there (he had the sense to undo the wood latch at the top of the door) but did not find the light switch do did not see her. It was only when JR moved her body closer that she was seen by looking in the room.

The Barbie nightgown, to use an R phrase, "was not supposed to be there". It came out of the basement dryer with the white blanket and was not noticed by the stagers. I do not believe she was going to be redressed in it, because if rigor had begun, they would have had a difficult time of undressing/redressing her. And I think if they had tried unsucessfully to do so, they would not have left the nightgown on the floor.

Like the pineapple in her intestines, the Barbie nightgown surprised the Rs when it was noted. [/quote]

I totally agree!!!

 

[JMO8778]

IMHO, the strangulation and garrotting was done for staging purposes, to provide a VISIBLE cause of death. Therefore, it was INTENTIONAL. My reason for believing this precisely because there was so little internal damage to the structures of the neck noted in the autopsy. While those photos may LOOK horrific, with that awful ligature furrow, the intact internal structure of the neck could indicate that this was not a fatal strangulation. The head blow, however, was a fatal blow, whether or not there was any other visible causes of death on the body. Mayer seems unsure himself, as he states "ligature strangulation ASSOCIATED with blunt force trauma to the head".

While I feel JR may have indeed moved the body closer to the door of the wineceller, livor mortis patterns indicate it was already fixed (non-blanching) and therefore it happened after LE and the R "posse" of supporters had arrived. Because the only room in the basement Officer French did NOT look in was the wineceller, so her body had to be in there. FW looked in there (he had the sense to undo the wood latch at the top of the door) but did not find the light switch do did not see her. It was only when JR moved her body closer that she was seen by looking in the room.

yes and I think that's why he 'found' her,in the end...he was afraid of his footprints,etc, being there,as well as he wanted it to say her hands were tied tightly,when in fact they were not,so he tried to undo some of the staging with them.

The Barbie nightgown, to use an R phrase, "was not supposed to be there". It came out of the basement dryer with the white blanket and was not noticed by the stagers. I do not believe she was going to be redressed in it, because if rigor had begun, they would have had a difficult time of undressing/redressing her. And I think if they had tried unsucessfully to do so, they would not have left the nightgown on the floor.

Like the pineapple in her intestines, the Barbie nightgown surprised the Rs when it was noted.

IA,and I think JR may have been using the night vision goggles he was Q'd about,and so just didn't see it.

 

[JMO8778]

Dee,(I think this is the right thread re: TOD),it wasn't Coroner Meyer,it was Dr Spitz who est. the time of death 'about or before 1AM',ST's 'JonBenet',hrdback,p. 228.

 

[UKGuy]

IMHO, the strangulation and garrotting was done for staging purposes, to provide a VISIBLE cause of death. Therefore, it was INTENTIONAL. My reason for believing this precisely because there was so little internal damage to the structures of the neck noted in the autopsy. While those photos may LOOK horrific, with that awful ligature furrow, the intact internal structure of the neck could indicate that this was not a fatal strangulation. The head blow, however, was a fatal blow, whether or not there was any other visible causes of death on the body. Mayer seems unsure himself, as he states "ligature strangulation ASSOCIATED with blunt force trauma to the head".

While I feel JR may have indeed moved the body closer to the door of the wineceller, livor mortis patterns indicate it was already fixed (non-blanching) and therefore it happened after LE and the R "posse" of supporters had arrived. Because the only room in the basement Officer French did NOT look in was the wineceller, so her body had to be in there. FW looked in there (he had the sense to undo the wood latch at the top of the door) but did not find the light switch do did not see her. It was only when JR moved her body closer that she was seen by looking in the room.

The Barbie nightgown, to use an R phrase, "was not supposed to be there". It came out of the basement dryer with the white blanket and was not noticed by the stagers. I do not believe she was going to be redressed in it, because if rigor had begun, they would have had a difficult time of undressing/redressing her. And I think if they had tried unsucessfully to do so, they would not have left the nightgown on the floor.

Like the pineapple in her intestines, the Barbie nightgown surprised the Rs when it was noted.

DeeDee249,

IMHO, the strangulation and garrotting was done for staging purposes, to provide a VISIBLE cause of death.

I rather think that the strangulation was for real, e.g. her lower neck abrasions, patently occurring while she was alive. The garrote I agree was staging, arranged to confuse her lower neck abrasions.

Note, JonBenet's head injury is not visible, so is not the the focus of the staging?

Mayer seems unsure himself, as he states "ligature strangulation ASSOCIATED with blunt force trauma to the head".

No I reckon what he saying is technically correct, since the blunt force trauma can cause oxygen depletion and add to any manual asphyxiation? What Coroner Meyer does not state is that JonBenet was manually strangled. I reckon he and the BPD initially decided to play game with the staging?

The barbie-nightgown is alike the pineapple since it ruins a staged crime-scene, I have another theory where JonBenet is molested and killed in her barbie-nightgown, which is then removed down in the basement, but as you suggest is then forgotten?

I do not go along with the mistake/accident explanation for the barbie-gown, since her killer had multiple opportunites to note the barbie gown was present, the blankets had to be laid out, then JonBenet had to be wrapped in them. She may never have left those blankets which may have been placed around her upstairs, given that she also suffered some form of digital vaginal trauma, then again another opportunity arose to note the barbie-gown, no I reckon the barbie-gown was intended to replace her white gap-top, but some constraint denied this e.g. rigor-mortis, time?

On the latter constraint this is one negative feature of most theories, since it did not take all night to apply the staging described in most theories?


.

 

[Ames]

DeeDee249,

I rather think that the strangulation was for real, e.g. her lower neck abrasions, patently occurring while she was alive. The garrote I agree was staging, arranged to confuse her lower neck abrasions.

Note, JonBenet's head injury is not visible, so is not the the focus of the staging?


No I reckon what he saying is technically correct, since the blunt force trauma can cause oxygen depletion and add to any manual asphyxiation? What Coroner Meyer does not state is that JonBenet was manually strangled. I reckon he and the BPD initially decided to play game with the staging?

The barbie-nightgown is alike the pineapple since it ruins a staged crime-scene, I have another theory where JonBenet is molested and killed in her barbie-nightgown, which is then removed down in the basement, but as you suggest is then forgotten?

I do not go along with the mistake/accident explanation for the barbie-gown, since her killer had multiple opportunites to note the barbie gown was present, the blankets had to be laid out, then JonBenet had to be wrapped in them. She may never have left those blankets which may have been placed around her upstairs, given that she also suffered some form of digital vaginal trauma, then again another opportunity arose to note the barbie-gown, no I reckon the barbie-gown was intended to replace her white gap-top, but some constraint denied this e.g. rigor-mortis, time?

On the latter constraint this is one negative feature of most theories, since it did not take all night to apply the staging described in most theories?


.

Then what do you think John meant, when he said....that the blanket "wasn't supposed to be there"? If an intruder did it, how would John know what was supposed to be there, and what WASN'T supposed to be there. This is why I believe that John or Patsy....pulled out the Barbie nightgown by mistake, when they took the blanket from the dryer...and just never did notice it. It wasn't laid out....it was partially hid by the blanket...which tells me, that they didn't know it was there. They overlooked it....therefore...it "wasn't supposed to be there" If it was meant to be there...then when told about it, John would have said something like..."well, I wonder what the intention was for leaving that there?"...because John and Patsy are trying to make it appear as though an intruder did it. I think that he was in shock, when he heard that....and was probably thinking out loud....that it "wasn't supposed to be there". He was probably petrified that it may have some sort for fiber evidence on it.

 

[JMO8778]

No I reckon what he saying is technically correct, since the blunt force trauma can cause oxygen depletion and add to any manual asphyxiation? What Coroner Meyer does not state is that JonBenet was manually strangled. I reckon he and the BPD initially decided to play game with the staging?

right..I don't know about a game,but it sure was omitted,wasn't it? B/c Dr Spitz said first there was a manual strangulation,with the shirt collar being twisted and the perps knuckles causing the abrasions on her neck.
Patsy at first said that JB wore the red turtleneck to bed.Later she said it was the white gap top.During questioning at one point,she omits the color,saying only that she went to bed in a polo type shirt.
Since I don't think the R's would have left a shirt w. a stretched and twisted collar on her...(that would be too obvious,as they wanted to mask that w. the garrote),it would appear she did have the red shirt on at some point after returning home (maybe to save time the next morning),and the evidence is on *that shirt,not the one she was found in.Remember Patsy even said she and JB got into an argument over that shirt,as she wanted her to wear it to the White's party.(but did they really?).And then Patsy starts crying when she sees a photo of the red shirt (although I think she says "oh God..a crown",as a diversion).

The barbie-nightgown is alike the pineapple since it ruins a staged crime-scene, I have another theory where JonBenet is molested and killed in her barbie-nightgown, which is then removed down in the basement, but as you suggest is then forgotten?

I do not go along with the mistake/accident explanation for the barbie-gown, since her killer had multiple opportunites to note the barbie gown was present, the blankets had to be laid out, then JonBenet had to be wrapped in them. She may never have left those blankets which may have been placed around her upstairs, given that she also suffered some form of digital vaginal trauma, then again another opportunity arose to note the barbie-gown, no I reckon the barbie-gown was intended to replace her white gap-top, but some constraint denied this e.g. rigor-mortis, time?

On the latter constraint this is one negative feature of most theories, since it did not take all night to apply the staging described in most theories?


.

if JR was doing some of the staging w/ the night vision goggles he was q'd about,then isn't it possible he just didn't see it?The R's were leaving lights off that were normally on,and using a flashlight to get around so neighbors would think they were asleep...my guess is the lights in the basement were off as well.

 

[UKGuy]

right..I don't know about a game,but it sure was omitted,wasn't it? B/c Dr Spitz said first there was a manual strangulation,with the shirt collar being twisted and the perps knuckles causing the abrasions on her neck.
Patsy at first said that JB wore the red turtleneck to bed.Later she said it was the white gap top.During questioning at one point,she omits the color,saying only that she went to bed in a polo type shirt.
Since I don't think the R's would have left a shirt w. a stretched and twisted collar on her...(that would be too obvious,as they wanted to mask that w. the garrote),it would appear she did have the red shirt on at some point after returning home (maybe to save time the next morning),and the evidence is on *that shirt,not the one she was found in.Remember Patsy even said she and JB got into an argument over that shirt,as she wanted her to wear it to the White's party.(but did they really?).And then Patsy starts crying when she sees a photo of the red shirt (although I think she says "oh God..a crown",as a diversion).


if JR was doing some of the staging w/ the night vision goggles he was q'd about,then isn't it possible he just didn't see it?The R's were leaving lights off that were normally on,and using a flashlight to get around so neighbors would think they were asleep...my guess is the lights in the basement were off as well.

JMO8778,

Yes JonBenet may have been wearing that red top, but have the police checked the top for dna and skin shedding etc? This scenario is consistent with the subsequent staging.

if JR was doing some of the staging w/ the night vision goggles he was q'd about,then isn't it possible he just didn't see it?The R's were leaving lights off that were normally on,and using a flashlight to get around so neighbors would think they were asleep...my guess is the lights in the basement were off as well.

Sure it's possible it was not seen, but why that item and nothing else, even the flashlight was given the wiping treatment, nothing was left to chance.

Remember JonBenet was probably wrapped in the blankets prior to being placed into the wine-cellar, so there was plenty opportunity to notice if the barbie-gown was clinging?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Then what do you think John meant, when he said....that the blanket "wasn't supposed to be there"? If an intruder did it, how would John know what was supposed to be there, and what WASN'T supposed to be there. This is why I believe that John or Patsy....pulled out the Barbie nightgown by mistake, when they took the blanket from the dryer...and just never did notice it. It wasn't laid out....it was partially hid by the blanket...which tells me, that they didn't know it was there. They overlooked it....therefore...it "wasn't supposed to be there" If it was meant to be there...then when told about it, John would have said something like..."well, I wonder what the intention was for leaving that there?"...because John and Patsy are trying to make it appear as though an intruder did it. I think that he was in shock, when he heard that....and was probably thinking out loud....that it "wasn't supposed to be there". He was probably petrified that it may have some sort for fiber evidence on it.

Ames,
By saying what he said, one thing is for certain, he was not saying he knew it should not be there, because he was involved in the death of JonBenet?

That is too incriminating, even for the investigators, he was probably just stating the obvious, as in that barbie gown should be upstairs, or certainly not on the wine-cellar floor?

A dead body dressed in oversized size-12 underwear, along with a barbie-gown lying close by, is simply incongruous, even in a staged crime-scene, something else was going on?

.

 

[Ames]

Ames,
By saying what he said, one thing is for certain, he was not saying he knew it should not be there, because he was involved in the death of JonBenet?

That is too incriminating, even for the investigators, he was probably just stating the obvious, as in that barbie gown should be upstairs, or certainly not on the wine-cellar floor?

A dead body dressed in oversized size-12 underwear, along with a barbie-gown lying close by, is simply incongruous, even in a staged crime-scene, something else was going on?

.

His daughter, and the white blanket wasn't "supposed to be there" either. I just don't get why he would say that about the blanket, if he knew that it was there all along. Seems he would have said, something that incriminated the intruder....like..."Well, maybe the intruder was going to change her clothes or something".....you KNOW that they chose every single opportunity that they could, to pin stuff on that invisible intruder. I have also read where some posters have said that it was JB's favorite nightgown....it wasn't. Patsy said in her interview..and I have posted this somewhere on another thread...that it was NOT her favorite...that she had lots of them, but that her favorite was one that looked like a Jeanie costume. She said that she took it with her to pageants, because she could just step into it, and pull it up...to keep from messing up her hair and makeup. But, she said that IT was her favorite...NOT the Barbie nightgown that was left beside of her. Patsy COULD BE lying...she was really good at that. That is yet ANOTHER reason why I think that it wasn't supposed to be there...it was overlooked. Patsy was trying too hard to downplay it.

 

[DeeDee249]

I am thinking that the Barbie nightgown would not be noticed wearing the night-vision goggles. Light colors all tend to look the same in the dark, and those goggles give things a greenish cast. I really belive they never noticed the nightgown. Try to imagine what the activity in the basement was like that night...hearts racing, adrenaline pumping, horror and fear welling up in the mind...as calculating as the Rs seem, this was their daughter that they loved (I really believe this) and regardless of how inappropriate they presented her in her pageant life, JBR was very important to her mother. An abusive relationship existed with BOTH parents, IMO, sexual abuse and emotional abuse. But this horrible crime and staging began with an irreversible act of anger. Either as a knee-jerk reaction to her scream (as I believe) or as an unintentional slamming. Once they were on that train, it just carried them along, snowballing into the terrible and implausible scene we are all too familiar with. That being said, the Rs were absoultely panic-stricken as they scurried about in the dark, and that alone could account for not noticing the Barbie nightgown. We sometimes forget that when WE see the crime scene photos they are in normal room light. But the Rs moved around that night in the dark, not turning on the inside lights even in the basement. It was too risky, and the basement windows did not have curtains or any other covering on them- anyone awake around that time (it wasn't unlikely, I myself never go to bed before 1am) might have noticed the basement lights on. As it turns out, neighbors DID notice "strange lights" (later described an moving lights, as in carrying a flashlight around) and neighbors also noticed the sunroom light was OFF as was the outside lamp.

 

[JMO8778]

I am thinking that the Barbie nightgown would not be noticed wearing the night-vision goggles. Light colors all tend to look the same in the dark, and those goggles give things a greenish cast. I really belive they never noticed the nightgown. Try to imagine what the activity in the basement was like that night...hearts racing, adrenaline pumping, horror and fear welling up in the mind...as calculating as the Rs seem, this was their daughter that they loved (I really believe this) and regardless of how inappropriate they presented her in her pageant life, JBR was very important to her mother. An abusive relationship existed with BOTH parents, IMO, sexual abuse and emotional abuse. But this horrible crime and staging began with an irreversible act of anger. Either as a knee-jerk reaction to her scream (as I believe) or as an unintentional slamming. Once they were on that train, it just carried them along, snowballing into the terrible and implausible scene we are all too familiar with. That being said, the Rs were absoultely panic-stricken as they scurried about in the dark, and that alone could account for not noticing the Barbie nightgown. We sometimes forget that when WE see the crime scene photos they are in normal room light. But the Rs moved around that night in the dark, not turning on the inside lights even in the basement. It was too risky, and the basement windows did not have curtains or any other covering on them- anyone awake around that time (it wasn't unlikely, I myself never go to bed before 1am) might have noticed the basement lights on. As it turns out, neighbors DID notice "strange lights" (later described an moving lights, as in carrying a flashlight around) and neighbors also noticed the sunroom light was OFF as was the outside lamp.

I think so,too.
In DOI,JR mentions looking out the window w. binoculars..do those function,or can you get them that way,as reg. binoculars too? I just wonder if he was trying to account for his fresh prints being on them.

 

[Ames]

I am thinking that the Barbie nightgown would not be noticed wearing the night-vision goggles. Light colors all tend to look the same in the dark, and those goggles give things a greenish cast. I really belive they never noticed the nightgown.

You are right about the night vision goggles giving everything a greenish cast. I believe that he used these too, and the police suspected it too...or else Patsy would not have been questioned about them. There was SOME significance....IMO I don't believe that they noticed the nightgown either, another thing is...it was not laid out beside of her, it was partially covered by the blanket...so that coupled with the fact that John was probably using his night vision goggles...is the reason that they didn't notice it. It came out with the blanket, from the dryer.

Try to imagine what the activity in the basement was like that night...hearts racing, adrenaline pumping, horror and fear welling up in the mind...as calculating as the Rs seem, this was their daughter that they loved (I really believe this) and regardless of how inappropriate they presented her in her pageant life, JBR was very important to her mother.

I can't even imagine what they were going through....it had to have been horrible for them. And I agree with you..I believe that they loved JB, too. That's why I don't think that she was intentionally hurt....the head blow was a result of an accident. I believe that they panicked, and thought that they would for sure go to jail, if she was rushed to the ER...so they devised a coverup scheme.

An abusive relationship existed with BOTH parents, IMO, sexual abuse and emotional abuse. But this horrible crime and staging began with an irreversible act of anger. Either as a knee-jerk reaction to her scream (as I believe) or as an unintentional slamming.

I am still on the fence about the sexual abuse. I believe that she was unintentionally slammed into something.

Once they were on that train, it just carried them along, snowballing into the terrible and implausible scene we are all too familiar with. That being said, the Rs were absoultely panic-stricken as they scurried about in the dark, and that alone could account for not noticing the Barbie nightgown. We sometimes forget that when WE see the crime scene photos they are in normal room light. But the Rs moved around that night in the dark, not turning on the inside lights even in the basement. It was too risky, and the basement windows did not have curtains or any other covering on them- anyone awake around that time (it wasn't unlikely, I myself never go to bed before 1am) might have noticed the basement lights on. As it turns out, neighbors DID notice "strange lights" (later described an moving lights, as in carrying a flashlight around) and neighbors also noticed the sunroom light was OFF as was the outside lamp.

Yes, I believe that you are right...people DO forget that the Ramsey's were moving around in the dark....which also points to NO intruder...that basement was in such a mess, that the intruder would have killed himself down there, without any lights on.

I believe that Patsy probably used the flashlight to see to write the RN...and John probably used his night vision goggles. They probably even walked around with the flashlight, just in CASE the neighbors were to see. And then they wiped it down, including the batteries....(why would an intruder wipe the batteries down, if HE is not the one that put them in the flashlight? And if the flashlight needed batteries for the flashlight to work, then how in the world would he know where to find them? The only reason that the batteries were wiped clean, were because the same finger prints that were on the flashlight...were also on the batteries....THE RAMSEY'S), to make it look like an intruder used it, wiped it down..including the batteries.. , and just left it there on the counter. When, wouldn't it have been so much easier to have just taken it with him? It would have taken up WAY less time...just grab it and go....to use to see how to get out of the house, and to see once he got outside, in the dark. The flashlight, the fibers, and the RN...are the smoking gun...IMO

As far as the sun room light being off...it was usually left on. So, that tells me that something wasn't right. They made that house pitch dark, FOR A REASON.

 

[Ames]

I think so,too.
In DOI,JR mentions looking out the window w. binoculars..do those function,or can you get them that way,as reg. binoculars too? I just wonder if he was trying to account for his fresh prints being on them.

Probably...

And if someone had kidnapped my child..and left a RN....I wouldn't be creeping around in my own home, peeking out the window with binoculars....I would be running out the door...and scouring the streets...for any clues. Maybe there was a get away car parked down the street somewhere, and she was carried or dragged to that car. Maybe there is some sort of clue, outside on the street....a piece of her clothing maybe. Why would he be peeking out Burkes Bedroom window with binoculars...IMO...he didn't. He just said that account for his fingerprints. I bet that they forgot to wipe it down too.

 

[JMO8778]

You are right about the night vision goggles giving everything a greenish cast. I believe that he used these too, and the police suspected it too...or else Patsy would not have been questioned about them. There was SOME significance....IMO I don't believe that they noticed the nightgown either, another thing is...it was not laid out beside of her, it was partially covered by the blanket...so that coupled with the fact that John was probably using his night vision goggles...is the reason that they didn't notice it. It came out with the blanket, from the dryer.



I can't even imagine what they were going through....it had to have been horrible for them. And I agree with you..I believe that they loved JB, too. That's why I don't think that she was intentionally hurt....the head blow was a result of an accident. I believe that they panicked, and thought that they would for sure go to jail, if she was rushed to the ER...so they devised a coverup scheme.



I am still on the fence about the sexual abuse. I believe that she was unintentionally slammed into something.





Yes, I believe that you are right...people DO forget that the Ramsey's were moving around in the dark....which also points to NO intruder...that basement was in such a mess, that the intruder would have killed himself down there, without any lights on.

I believe that Patsy probably used the flashlight to see to write the RN...and John probably used his night vision goggles. They probably even walked around with the flashlight, just in CASE the neighbors were to see. And then they wiped it down, including the batteries....(why would an intruder wipe the batteries down, if HE is not the one that put them in the flashlight? And if the flashlight needed batteries for the flashlight to work, then how in the world would he know where to find them? The only reason that the batteries were wiped clean, were because the same finger prints that were on the flashlight...were also on the batteries....THE RAMSEY'S), to make it look like an intruder used it, wiped it down..including the batteries.. , and just left it there on the counter. When, wouldn't it have been so much easier to have just taken it with him? It would have taken up WAY less time...just grab it and go....to use to see how to get out of the house, and to see once he got outside, in the dark. The flashlight, the fibers, and the RN...are the smoking gun...IMO

As far as the sun room light being off...it was usually left on. So, that tells me that something wasn't right. They made that house pitch dark, FOR A REASON.

probably in case BR got up,too.

 

[JMO8778]

Probably...

And if someone had kidnapped my child..and left a RN....I wouldn't be creeping around in my own home, peeking out the window with binoculars....I would be running out the door...and scouring the streets...for any clues. Maybe there was a get away car parked down the street somewhere, and she was carried or dragged to that car. Maybe there is some sort of clue, outside on the street....a piece of her clothing maybe. Why would he be peeking out Burkes Bedroom window with binoculars...IMO...he didn't. He just said that account for his fingerprints. I bet that they forgot to wipe it down too.

yes and then he didn't even report the 'strange vehicle' (notice he didn't say car,truck,SUV or whatever...) he said he saw w/ them.he was just trying to account for his prints,just as he did w/ the window and the freezer door he said he checked that morning,that he said he checked just to make sure JB wasn't in there.
what is most suspect to me though,and one of the reasons I think he did molest JB,and fairly recently,(if not that night),was the fact he was trying to account for his underwear fibers near her bed.I suspect this is one of the things being held back.why else would he bother to put that in there?

 

[armywife210]

yes and then he didn't even report the 'strange vehicle' (notice he didn't say car,truck,SUV or whatever...) he said he saw w/ them.he was just trying to account for his prints,just as he did w/ the window and the freezer door he said he checked that morning,that he said he checked just to make sure JB wasn't in there.
what is most suspect to me though,and one of the reasons I think he did molest JB,and fairly recently,(if not that night),was the fact he was trying to account for his underwear fibers near her bed.I suspect this is one of the things being held back.why else would he bother to put that in there?

uhm, what? Apparently I have missed something about John's underwear fibers near her bed. How did I miss that? What was said about it? I was almost ready to say that perhaps John hadn't been sexually abusing her. I still think that she was quite probably being douched after deficating in her pants... but I am going to see what I can find in his statements to the police about his underwear fibers.

 

[JMO8778]

uhm, what? Apparently I have missed something about John's underwear fibers near her bed. How did I miss that? What was said about it? I was almost ready to say that perhaps John hadn't been sexually abusing her. I still think that she was quite probably being douched after deficating in her pants... but I am going to see what I can find in his statements to the police about his underwear fibers.

he didn't come out and directly say it.he drops a lot of hints throughout the book.that's open to speculation,but just like the broken window and him trying to account for his fresh prints there,I think he's trying to account for his underwear fibers in her room,in case anything was found.I don't know as he was q'd about it,but he also dropped hints about his prints being on the walk-in fridge,and apparently he and Patsy were worried that their room at the Stine's had been bugged,b/c Patsy dropped a hint about that,too.
I can only guess there's more we aren't seeing,since they bothered to put things like that in there.

 

[Ames]

uhm, what? Apparently I have missed something about John's underwear fibers near her bed. How did I miss that? What was said about it? I was almost ready to say that perhaps John hadn't been sexually abusing her. I still think that she was quite probably being douched after deficating in her pants... but I am going to see what I can find in his statements to the police about his underwear fibers.

To be honest, I have read all of his interviews, and have never before read that underwear fibers were found near JB's bed, but maybe I missed it. Let me know if you find it, I would like to read that for myself.