Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #14

[Patty G]

I just re-watched my recorded NG

JVS to JL

May 10: "I am going to Peru to live their (sic) until I need to go back to Thailand & take care of my shop. I am done with Aruba. Take care."

May 26: Hey, Just so you know I will be coming back to Aruba on Sunday."

May 29: "Happy birthday man I hope you had a good day & remember how imortant family & friends are. I won't bother you today but send me some money through Western Union tomorrow. The only information of mine you is my name Joran van der Sloot, the country Peru & the city Lima. I need this man for my ticket back so di it for me. Take care & enjoy your b-day."

I wonder if Joran was really going back to Aruba on May 30th as indicated May 26 email exchange.

 

[Patty G]

Scared Monkeys is a website that is blocked at WS.

 

[georger]

NG: caller wanting to know if Joran learned enough from his father being a lawyer that he's designed his confession to be as "accidental" as possible.

For a guy who says he doesnt know why it happened and doesnt know
some things that happened, he sure talks a lot and has a lot of "useless"
details ... the Peruvians LE (as well as all LE people) deal with this kind of thing all the time and know he's lying all the way ....

Joran says what triggered it all was an email "Im going to kill you you
Mongoloid". Mongoloid? Why that word? Does the word Mongoloid relate
to something specific in the Holloway case if this email was about the
Holloway case? Why would someone call Joran a Mongoloid? Or is
Mongoloid Joran's word he chose, planting the idea for the Peruvians
he has some mental deficiency (is therefore not repsonsible)?

Why would the word Mongoloid set Joran off - or why would he chose
the word if the word is his choice?

 

[newone]

Lord....he blew through all that money?????

Ludwig said he was addicted to gambling....wow....I'm sure he eyed Stephany sitting at her 'lucky' 7 spot winning all that money.

What a creep.....the poor girl didn't have a prayer.

but did you notice he was sitting at #8?:waitasec:

 

[Kat]

NG just now showing here. Anyone miss a statement or missed a question they want me to listen for?

 

[rotterdam]

For a guy who says he doesnt know why it happened and doesnt know
some things that happened, he sure talks a lot and has a lot of "useless"
details ... the Peruvians LE (as well as all LE people) deal with this kind of thing all the time and know he's lying all the way ....

Joran says what triggered it all was an email "Im going to kill you you
Mongoloid". Mongoloid? Why that word? Does the word Mongoloid relate
to something specific in the Holloway case if this email was about the
Holloway case? Why would someone call Joran a Mongoloid? Or is
Mongoloid Joran's word he chose, planting the idea for the Peruvians
he has some mental deficiency (is therefore not repsonsible)?

Why would the word Mongoloid set Joran off - or why would he chose
the word if the word is his choice?

I bet that Email never happened anyway so that makes the "mongoloid" moot.

 

[georger]

LOL, I've watched this guy off and on for five years, and I'm still trying to figure out why I've seen so many people talk about him being intelligent.


JMHO
fran

because he has flourishes of what passes for intelligence ... then breaks
down while the rest of the world is living normally making progress on IQ's
of 100 ... with Joran left far behind and now a murderer.

He may have a high IQ (I dont know) but she sure cant apply even a
normal level IQ for any sustained period.

 

[newone]

:woohoo:

Newbie here, just testing as reading

welcome!

 

[Salem]

Okay, I stink at tech issues.. I tried to do a screen shot of the email exchange between Ludwick and JVDS from SM...but failed miserably...sorry! Any tips???

Yes. Please stop. It is against WS policy to carry things over from SM. That's why, when you posted the link, it came up as asteriks. SM is not allowed here. You are free to read and participate there, you just can't carry things over here, nor may you take things from here, to post there.

Hope that helps. Let me or one of the other mods know if you have any further questions.

Salem

 

[georger]

Ludwig? If that's all they got, they're in some deep trouble as far as PR. Even worse than I imagined and that was pretty bad.

Thats funny, I hate say so but you are soooooooooooo right!
Ludvig ist das Baumwollernmachine Joran will enter in Datonna, that race!
Presposterous.

I thought Grace handled him extremely well; a high point for her and
I was so very pleased she nail him good. She was wonderful!

 

[Patty G]

I posted the transcript in the Media Forum around 11:00 PM EDT...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1006/14/ng.01.html

 

[georger]

I read earlier that JVDS cousin is saying JVDS isn't a serial killer, or psychopath. Seems like this is what is coming out of Aruba...

Its not enough at this point for these people to keep saying this -
they NEED TO PRESENT PROOF! When will they understand the world
was not born trying to get Joran van der Sloot? Its Joran who has
attracted the world's attention. So present a case in behalf of this
fellow Joran ... a case that has substance and proofs. Example: what
are his accomplishments in life...

 

[LadyL]

FYI, there is rarely ever such thing as having a single personality disorder. More often than not, there are co-morbid personality disorders, although one PD might be considered the "primary" PD, with another PD being secondary (i.e. they meet 5 ASPD criteria and 3-4 NPD criteria). And of course, there's a lot of overlap in the criteria. NPDs & ASPD have no empathy to speak of (although they may "love" their mothers dearly and be completely distraught at their death; think Hitler). BPS's (borderlines) have very immature empathy. It's there, it's not a normal "depth" though, and even when it can be deeply felt, BPDs don't know what to do with it (or it may anger them if they were the source of your hurt, then you'd swear they had none at all). So a seeming lack of empathy, in and of itself, could be the result of several combinations (BPD w/ secondary ASPD or vice versa, or NPD with ASPD characteristics, etc.). Naturally then, even experts who examine the same person will disagree on an exact diagnosis.

Here's a link to someone's (a Peruvian psychiatrist or psychologist, perhaps, observations of JVS's personality traits):

http://www.larepublica.pe/sociedad/...t-ludopata-obseso-ironico-y-asesino-confeso-0

I don't know if it's been posted before or not (no time to check & see . One thing that stood out for me was the emotion dysregulation noted, which is classic BPD. More women are diagnosed w/ BPD because of this element (women are more emotional in general), and hence many professionals believe men are under-diagnosed w/ BPD, also because of this element i.e., they are less emotional in general (...and they believe they are under-diagnosed w/ BPD for other reasons...who ever is writing the book can go into that in the book perhaps . Note that JVS reportedly cried as he confessed, and has been crying in his cell. That seems to indicate, perhaps, that he's not 100% ASPD without any co-morbidities (although the tears in his cell were probably more for himself, they were still not the crocodile tears Bundy put on for the cameras). The emotional dysregulation in BPD, BTW, is "triggered" by events, unlike bi-polar which is usually not.

Gambling addiction is indicative of BPD as well, although most BPD's have multiple addictions (because they will become addicted to just about anything). Another indication that points away from pure ASPD was "news" (rumor?) that he was going to seek out therapy (or anger management). Pure narcissists and pure ASPD rarely, if ever, seek therapy on their own (but BPDs often do).

If JVS can be diagnosed as ASPD, he certainly would weigh in on the sociopathic side as opposed to the psychopathic side (impulsive crimes vs. carefully planned crimes, sometimes years in advance).

And, yes, most criminals are by-and-large made, not born, although genetics can play are role. One of the more interesting studies on this was a study of adopted kids (or families split up in some way...the usual type w/ nature/nurture studies) whose bio-dad were/were not criminals and whose adopted or step-dads were/were not criminals (perhaps someone can locate that study). Don't hold me to the numbers or exact details because it's been a few years since I read it, but it went something like this: If neither of X's dads were criminal, 3% of the boys became criminal (whatever the real percentage was, it was higher than the general population, attributed to the trauma of the change in caregivers). If X's bio-dad was a criminal, but the man who raised X was not was not, 8% of the boys became criminals. If in-home dad was a criminal & bio-dad was not, 19% of the boys became criminals. Where both bio-dad & in-home dad were criminals, 44% became criminals (but do note that still the majority of boys did not become criminals).

There were many variables not taken into account (violent crimes? crimes of deceit only? Amount of time bio-dad or even step-dad was around? Did they bravado or hide their crimes?), nonetheless, statistically the numbers were so remarkable that the fact that many variables were not controlled for is not terribly important (like if one drug/method had a 30% cure rate and another had a 75% cure rate, the fact that 10% of the 75% are vegetarians while only 2% of the 30% are vegetarians is moot with those kind of statistics, take the cure w/ the 75% cure rate, don't just become a vegetarian ;-).

There have been other studies, of course, and with respect to mental illnesses as well, that clearly indicate the predominate factor is nurture rather than nature, although please know that it can NEVER be said to be just one or the other. The forming of a human mind is an integration of many factors and extremely complex (which the studies also reveal). One trauma that was not purposeful (at a young age), might set one person in motion to mental illness while another can literally be abused to hell and back and not be so severely affected they can't recover (Unibomber on one hand, "A Boy Called It" on the other).

However, all of society knows that you can kick any basset hound pup enough times to make it rabid-mean, and you can love up a pit bull pup enough to make him happy-go lucky cuddle bug. That is, no matter their genetics, a primary caregiver(s) early in life can, and will (like it or not, intentional or not) create dispositions and tendencies by their interactions with a developing human brain (or animal brain).

But don't get me wrong, it's not the physical abuse that creates an angry dog or person (physical trauma heals). It is the underlying unpredictableness and neglect or punitiveness that does the physiological & psychological damage (i.e., a parent can have never hit a child and create a sociopath nonetheless). This is where Samenow ignores even common knowledge (as to criminal etiology, that is), but his work documenting the common thinking errors of criminals (and even addicts) has been reproduced in many studies time and again. Prison cognitive-behavioral therapies (what little there is...Hazelden prints the workbooks) are now based on his work in criminal thinking errors (the therapy of which has nothing to do with the etiology, fortunately).

Okay, definitely have to get off my soap box and get some things done now. How wonderful this group wants to know more, enough to go and buy books, and maybe even write some. For those who are really interested in the biology/physiology, or raising a child, I'd recommend "How Affection Shapes a Baby's Brain." It details the biology (or microbiology, rather, down to cortisol, serotonin, and other hormones/neurotransmitters) in very easy to understand terms. Every parent should be given a copy upon delivery of a child.

Just don't take what you learn about the making of a criminal and get all sappy & feeling sorry for the JVS's of the world, (who, yes, know right from wrong, but do not care enough to make getting help a priority). Before you know it, you'll be pen-paling (and marrying by proxy) some death row inmate ;-)....as a surprising number of European women do, apparently...yikes!

very interesting
thank you!

 

[Kat]

Has Greta already been shown on the mainland? I can't seem to find a listing for her show here.

PattyG will you be taping her show also?

 

[Danie]

just had an earthquake ~ 5.5, I think

 

[sassy_texasbelle2]

Its not enough at this point for these people to keep saying this -
they NEED TO PRESENT PROOF! When will they understand the world
was not born trying to get Joran van der Sloot? Its Joran who has
attracted the world's attention. So present a case in behalf of this
fellow Joran ... a case that has substance and proofs. Example: what
are his accomplishments in life...

con artist, murderer, thief:waitasec: Nope can't find any

 

[omegagal]

There's no link from the previous thread, #7 to this one #8. Could someone that knows how to do that, please make the link? Much thanks...

 

[Kateyes]

Not sure of the spelling, but Joran's friend, Ludwig, sure seemed to be smirking at one point - right around the point where Nancy tells him he should be prepared to be supoened to give a deposition. It was an eerie moment, because he had the same type of smirk often seen on JVDS's face. No wonder they struck up a friendship. Don't think he will smirk when he hears from LE for that depo... JMO,MOO, etc

 

[Danie]

:woohoo:

welcome!

Thanks so much, I am really enjoying the good read & respect here.

 

[Patty G]

Has Greta already been shown on the mainland? I can't seem to find a listing for her show here.

PattyG will you be taping her show also?

No, I am not taping the show. I will go to her website tomorrow and get the video from there as well as the transcript and post it in the Media thread.

Normally I am fast asleep at this hour and just happened to pop in. Greta posts the show and transcript usually before noon.