Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #14

[newone]

Hi, DGFred. I think that Joran was a competent poker player. Of the two, he was probably the more experienced player, although she could apparently hold her own. It's possible that she might have borrowed chips from him in an earlier game and is now returning it.

It is interesting that both JVDS and SF played poker with their fathers. In his interview (in the JVDS media thread) SF dad talks about her poker playing ability. She was fast at math and was quite good. I will edit this post with the links.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106482&page=3 (post 69) has 9 videos of interview with SF's father -- he's eloquent and soft spoken -- he talks about his daughter's ability to win tournaments and says that he taught her poker

 

[FLNY]

You might not want to know THAT detail.

How funny!! I was actually thinking that as I wrote it!!! :blushing:

 

[Bobarino]

Chanier:

Thanks for your interest. As I wrote, I am not sure I want to get into this here and now, because of all the psychologizing I have read--and I am not saying that doesn't have some value. See below. Oh well, you asked.

But I will say those Peruvian military police have a good deal of insight! I think they know well, at least intrinsically, about the allergy/addiction syndrome!

And they used it well against Joran to get his confession.

Recall how he said upon entering his new ample accomodations, that he had a headache (that's my clear take on what he was trying to say) and then he elaborated.

And that elaboration I would like to get into now. I think he was trying to get in good with the new guards at the same time he has giving a hint about what was done to get his confession. He stated or implied that he ate little or nothing for the prior 2 days.

So the question arises, what, if anything did the police withhold from Joran?

All food for a certain period of time?
Some food or drink items? Cigarettes? Caffeine?

Did he knuckle under in part at least because his allergic/addictive foods, drink and cigarettes were withheld? In case you don't know, the withdrawl from even addictive/allergic foods has been documented to be as severe in some people as heroin withdrawal. And his behavorial problems (to put it lightly) may in part be due to his reactions to cigarettes, caffeine, "weed", alcohol, and any of his addictive foods. You can search on allergy/addiction syndrome yourselves.

And before anyone might fly off, I am not giving him a pass for anything. Just the opposite! If any of his "legal" substances whack out his brain, it is not an excuse as such. Rather, I might say lock him up forever, precisely because we cannot stop him from putting these things in his body, and because he, or we, actually get severely addicted to the foods or substances that are most allergenic to us! Again look up the allergy/adcition syndrome yourselves. And the brain for some people is their most reactive organ. And some things are downright toxic, not just allergenic.

One example, is sometimes, the staunchest anti-smoker around is a former smoker. And most smokers can recall how they coughed the very first time they puffed. Even alcoholics often hae their favorite bevarge--such as vodka coming from potatoes to which an allergy/addction might exist. Or the yeast in beer, etc.

Numerous studies have been done--including I believe on violent offenders in jail--With some great results on changes in diet and such.

But again, especailly because of the addictive nature of anything from caffeine/nicotine to sugar, etc. it is not an excuse, but perhaps an indication that such legal addictions can be deadly to innocent bystanders.

But I also believe his parents are at least partly to blame in coddling this monster from the first they observed his behavior.

But you have no idea how common parental inadequacies, and often despair, occur among those with children who react severely to various foods/substances. Again in part

because of the addiction mechanism and the withdrawal phase.

Well please do not blame the messenger if this is new to you, or you do not want to get into it. As cited there are many studies, especialy ones not financed by drug companies, if you catch my drift, that docuement this, and it is not a pass for Joran or anyone else. I do not believe in the "Twinkie defense" as such precisely because of the ubiquitousness of "Twinkies." And if someone knows they get whacked out from twinkies or whatever, lock yourself up to save innocent people, if you wont give up the twinkies or whatever.

But someone like Joran with his cigarettes, cola, weed, alcohol, etc. likely also has numerous food allergy/addcitions, and all these things probably whack out parts of his brain.

And Mommy and Daddy always gave him a pass for his behavior regardless of the cause.

He is where he belongs.

But note how the cab/van drivers noted his chain smoking, and again I think the police withheld everything they thought he was addicted to to get him to talk (when the TV cameras weren't rolling). And maybe even starved him a bit as well. (The old hypoglycemia as evidenced by his headache.)

Here we can perhaps say for a good purpose, but one does wonder if they starve people who might be innocent? Or just withhold every addictive susbstance they cleverly figure out their subject has?

And yes, Joran is likely undergoing one hell of a withdrawal now!!!

 

[Bobarino]

Dgfred:

Thanks for bringing up the hyoid bone. I think that is commonly found broken in strangling cases. And maybe that is what is meant in the diagram?

It doesn't take much to break this little fragile bone.

 

[epiphany]

Hi, DGFred. I think that Joran was a competent poker player. Of the two, he was probably the more experienced player, although she could apparently hold her own. It's possible that she might have borrowed chips from him in an earlier game and is now returning it.

I believe Stephany may have been the better player:

VAN SUSTEREN: Did she make money or not? He was not a big winner, was she a big winner?

COLLYNS: Yes. We hear Joran was not a big winner. And it does appear that she may have been a good poker player. A week before, according to the police she won on the 24th of May, a week before, around $10,000 in a poker game. And there are other records that she won lesser amounts of money, but certainly she was winning money.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,594744,00.html

 

[Peliman]

In the long distance shot, when they first shake hands, it strikes me as though she is handing him something. Then, watching the overhead shot, after the handshake, he splays his right hand out over his stack of chips as though he is releasing something from his hand, and continues to fiddle with the chips...so all I can think is that she handed him some chips. After fiddling with the chips, he bends and brings his right hand under his left leg. He remains in this unusual bent posture for some time. But unfortunately, we don't see the entire video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMHWpPRZ1vw

I may be way off the mark on this, since I know nothing about playing casino poker, let alone cheating at it! I know initially there were rumors about him and Stephany running a scam, but they have all been discounted as far as I can tell. Has anyone else been suspicious about this?

MOO

I'm getting more suspicious yes and I'm not a poker player either. Thanks for the video, video is my game. I notice at the .57 second mark the camera switches to an overhead shot briefly. I can see her shake his hand and he clasp something, then moves his hand over his chips and releases. It does appear she gave him a chip, now I'm wondering what the value was of that chip.

I'd love to see alot more gambling video. I can't tell from these snippets but to me se does hand him a chip. Watch the move at .58 seconds on the video. IMO

 

[tiredofthis]

Hi, Bobarino, thanks for your note. Yes, I've seen the video of him throwing the wine in DeVries' face. (There's also footage of him elsewhere smashing a glass of water against a wall.) I don't think that any charges were pressed and it certainly helped DeVries' ratings.

Your mention of the chemical causes of such outbursts is striking: I know two people with diagnosed anger management problems and in both cases, I have seen it strike like lightning.

My oldest son who has ADHD also has problems controlling his anger. His emotions switch in the blink of an eye. One moment he can be playing nicely with his brothers and the next he will be attacking them.

He has a chemical imbalance, but I have never excused his behavior. Unlike Joran, he has been taught there are consequences to his actions.

 

[BloodshotEye]

]Quote from Pelman's Post:
"I'll give an opinion here but with the caveat that the medical examiner/autopsy will prove a more accurate picture as to cause of death.

I am former Marine, trained in hand to hand combat and Viet vet. I hesitate talking about the forms of death a person can experience.

This is all IMO! To the question of was JVDS trained in martial arts? I'll say it's possible, I'll also say probably anyone who had a fascination with killing someone could learn in the privacy of their own home in a basement."

Respectfully snipped this post, to save space.
Very interesting, to have your perspective on this case. Welcome, Peliman. As for discussion about various causes of death, we've pretty much discussed anything and everything. There have been some pretty bizarre cases, that have hit the Websleuths site.

I agree, anyone who is interested, or perhaps would have a greater sense of security, can learn some very "low tech" ways to defend one's self. And inflict a lethal defense. I read a book by Gordon Liddy, when I was a just a kid. It was a book that was hanging around the house. I read everything. I was fascinated with his account of killing someone (being able to?)...with a pencil. Very strange guy indeed.

 

[SleuthyGal]

It seems, even at 14, he was a lying, devious chap who had no respect for females. Where did he learn this?

JVDS displays psychopathic behavior and it's something he was born with. JVDS doesn't have empathy towards others--doesn't feel anyone else's pain and doesn't care about hurting them. Plus, he is also a product of his environment--watching his father from even a very young age and learning from daddy how to treat others. There were no consequences to his improper behavior from the parents...he was raised in a permissive environment where he was saved from being in trouble by his parents. Really bad combo.

But make no mistake: the psychopathic behavior alone is enough to create a monster because his brain is simply not wired like a normal person's and nothing changes that.

 

[Chanler]

Chanier:

Thanks for your interest. As I wrote, I am not sure I want to get into this here and now, because of all the psychologizing I have read--and I am not saying that doesn't have some value. See below. Oh well, you asked.

But I will say those Peruvian military police have a good deal of insight! I think they know well, at least intrinsically, about the allergy/addiction syndrome!

And they used it well against Joran to get his confession.

Recall how he said upon entering his new ample accomodations, that he had a headache (that's my clear take on what he was trying to say) and then he elaborated.

And that elaboration I would like to get into now. I think he was trying to get in good with the new guards at the same time he has giving a hint about what was done to get his confession. He stated or implied that he ate little or nothing for the prior 2 days.

So the question arises, what, if anything did the police withhold from Joran?

All food for a certain period of time?
Some food or drink items? Cigarettes? Caffeine?

Did he knuckle under in part at least because his allergic/addictive foods, drink and cigarettes were withheld? In case you don't know, the withdrawl from even addictive/allergic foods has been documented to be as severe in some people as heroin withdrawal. And his behavorial problems (to put it lightly) may in part be due to his reactions to cigarettes, caffeine, "weed", alcohol, and any of his addictive foods. You can search on allergy/addiction syndrome yourselves.

And before anyone might fly off, I am not giving him a pass for anything. Just the opposite! If any of his "legal" substances whack out his brain, it is not an excuse as such. Rather, I might say lock him up forever, precisely because we cannot stop him from putting these things in his body, and because he, or we, actually get severely addicted to the foods or substances that are most allergenic to us! Again look up the allergy/adcition syndrome yourselves. And the brain for some people is their most reactive organ. And some things are downright toxic, not just allergenic.

One example, is sometimes, the staunchest anti-smoker around is a former smoker. And most smokers can recall how they coughed the very first time they puffed. Even alcoholics often hae their favorite bevarge--such as vodka coming from potatoes to which an allergy/addction might exist. Or the yeast in beer, etc.

Numerous studies have been done--including I believe on violent offenders in jail--With some great results on changes in diet and such.

But again, especailly because of the addictive nature of anything from caffeine/nicotine to sugar, etc. it is not an excuse, but perhaps an indication that such legal addictions can be deadly to innocent bystanders.

But I also believe his parents are at least partly to blame in coddling this monster from the first they observed his behavior.

But you have no idea how common parental inadequacies, and often despair, occur among those with children who react severely to various foods/substances. Again in part

because of the addiction mechanism and the withdrawal phase.

Well please do not blame the messenger if this is new to you, or you do not want to get into it. As cited there are many studies, especialy ones not financed by drug companies, if you catch my drift, that docuement this, and it is not a pass for Joran or anyone else. I do not believe in the "Twinkie defense" as such precisely because of the ubiquitousness of "Twinkies." And if someone knows they get whacked out from twinkies or whatever, lock yourself up to save innocent people, if you wont give up the twinkies or whatever.

But someone like Joran with his cigarettes, cola, weed, alcohol, etc. likely also has numerous food allergy/addcitions, and all these things probably whack out parts of his brain.

And Mommy and Daddy always gave him a pass for his behavior regardless of the cause.

He is where he belongs.

But note how the cab/van drivers noted his chain smoking, and again I think the police withheld everything they thought he was addicted to to get him to talk (when the TV cameras weren't rolling). And maybe even starved him a bit as well. (The old hypoglycemia as evidenced by his headache.)

Here we can perhaps say for a good purpose, but one does wonder if they starve people who might be innocent? Or just withhold every addictive susbstance they cleverly figure out their subject has?

And yes, Joran is likely undergoing one hell of a withdrawal now!!!

Hi, Bobarino, I think that your points are well-taken. When Joran arrived in that interrogation room, he was anxious, terrified, exhausted, hungry, and suffering from withdrawal from whatever chemical dependencies he has.

I agree that conditions, albeit chemical or behavioral, are not excuses.

People with emotional problems such as anger management frequently resort to chemicals as calming self-medication. So problem spiral both ways....

Most young people, guilty or not guilty, are no match for all-night interrogations by experienced LE. (In this case, it was six hours redoubled by the factors mentioned above.) In addition, other countries (including both Peru and Aruba) have fewer suspect protections than our own country.

 

[Chica]

Dgfred:

Thanks for bringing up the hyoid bone. I think that is commonly found broken in strangling cases. And maybe that is what is meant in the diagram?

It doesn't take much to break this little fragile bone.

OT, but I just learned something about the hyoid bone that surprised me. My friend's daughter (approximately 8 or 9 yrs old) has a non-cancerous cyst on her thyroid, and has to have it surgically removed. During the surgery, the surgeon will remove part of her hyoid bone, but it will grow back. I don't know about the rest of you, but I was very surprised...

 

[fran]

I'm getting more suspicious yes and I'm not a poker player either. Thanks for the video, video is my game. I notice at the .57 second mark the camera switches to an overhead shot briefly. I can see her shake his hand and he clasp something, then moves his hand over his chips and releases. It does appear she gave him a chip, now I'm wondering what the value was of that chip.

I'd love to see alot more gambling video. I can't tell from these snippets but to me se does hand him a chip. Watch the move at .58 seconds on the video. IMO

Just a quick note about the videos in the casino. I saw one clip where Stephany looks up, as if to look at the overhead camera.

Did anyone else see that shot? I don't know which one, but it's there somewhere.

JMHO
fran

 

[doobiedoo52]

In discussing Stephany's injuries, I think most of them are suggestive of being bopped a good one in the nose and then strangulation. I have stated before that the cut of her finger seems consistent with having her key chain or change purse looped on her finger and it being ripped from her hand. I am also still of the opinion that what her brother saw made her look much more "bruised" than just from her injuries because of the fact that she was lying face down. The blood will settle at the bottom of the body so to speak after a few days. It would have given her entire frontal area the look of discoloration and bruising. The strangulation will also put immense pressure on the already injured eye socket. Before I prepare for the attacks LOL I would like to state that I spent 18 years of my life in a funeral home/mortuary setting. I would also like to comment that a body after 3 days without embalming (unless its frozen or cooled in a morgue of course) will not be fit for any relative to see (other than thru a glass window. It will be grossly distorted by the beginnings of decomposition and the settling of blood process. JMO but feel free to check on this. As far as bruises on her feet, I am kind of wondering if they were soccer injuries--her dad and brother said she played a lot.

Proceed with the tomato toss LOL.

 

[Chanler]

My oldest son who has ADHD also has problems controlling his anger. His emotions switch in the blink of an eye. One moment he can be playing nicely with his brothers and the next he will be attacking them.

He has a chemical imbalance, but I have never excused his behavior. Unlike Joran, he has been taught there are consequences to his actions.

Hi, TiredOfThis. My hat is off to you. I know parents whose kids have similar problems and my sister is a special ed teacher, so I honestly could not be more sympathetic.

The good news is that we now know more about these conditions.

 

[Bobarino]

Again I don't give anyone a pass, and read all I wrote above.

But please if intersted just search.


Just the first study I found instantly.

Just one study from 12 years ago:

http://[URL="http://www.feingold.org/Research/PDFstudies/Peter98.pdf"]www.feingold.org/Research/PDFstudies/Peter98.pdf[/URL]


The Shipley Project: Treating Food Allergy to Prevent
Criminal Behaviour in Community Settings
C. PETER W. BENNETT BA MA MBA LEONARD M.
MCEWEN MA BM BC HELEN C. MCEWEN MB BS
EUNICE L. ROSE

Abstract:
Nine children with persistent anti-social, disruptive and/or
criminal behaviours were assessed and treated for food
intolerance and allergy. All were found to have a number of
food allergies or intolerances and mineral imbalances,
particularly in zinc. Three showed marginally raised
cadmium while one had considerably raised cadmium. The
children remained at home in the care of their parents while
undergoing a restrictive dietary regime with the avoidance
of identified problem foods. The health and behaviour of all
nine subjects improved both physically and psychologically.
However, three children abandoned the dietary regime, two
of whom re-offended and were placed in care while the third
moved home and accepted enzyme-potentiated
desensitization (EPD) treatment. He and the other six
continued to improve in health, behaviour and school
performance over 6 months. In the following 18 months, two
more re-offended but with much reduced frequency and
violence than before the project. After 2 years, five of the
nine had not re-offended. The feasibility of applying
nutritional and biochemical assessment and treatment in
the community to divert young offenders and disruptive
schoolchildren from criminal behaviour was demonstrated.
Criminal justice, education and health agencies could
incorporate and develop this approach in furtherance of
their statutory objectives.

 

[Chanler]

In discussing Stephany's injuries, I think most of them are suggestive of being bopped a good one in the nose and then strangulation. I have stated before that the cut of her finger seems consistent with having her key chain or change purse looped on her finger and it being ripped from her hand. I am also still of the opinion that what her brother saw made her look much more "bruised" than just from her injuries because of the fact that she was lying face down. The blood will settle at the bottom of the body so to speak after a few days. It would have given her entire frontal area the look of discoloration and bruising. The strangulation will also put immense pressure on the already injured eye socket. Before I prepare for the attacks LOL I would like to state that I spent 18 years of my life in a funeral home/mortuary setting. I would also like to comment that a body after 3 days without embalming (unless its frozen or cooled in a morgue of course) will not be fit for any relative to see (other than thru a glass window. It will be grossly distorted by the beginnings of decomposition and the settling of blood process. JMO but feel free to check on this. As far as bruises on her feet, I am kind of wondering if they were soccer injuries--her dad and brother said she played a lot.

Proceed with the tomato toss LOL.

Hi, Doobiedo52. No tomato toss here.

I don't have your eerie on-site training, but I do have an acquired hesitancy about drawing advanced conclusions about the sequence of a crime from isolated autopsy details. That said, we all do it.

 

[FLNY]

Just a quick note about the videos in the casino. I saw one clip where Stephany looks up, as if to look at the overhead camera.

Did anyone else see that shot? I don't know which one, but it's there somewhere.

JMHO
fran

You want it....I got it!!!

http://www.fotoglif.com/f/vqrs7ta9jx67/x2n6rrykaxko

 

[Bobarino]

Chica:

That is fascinating about tee hyoid bone regrowing. I tried to find that online and couldn't.

Now the hyoid bone attaches to several muscles including the back of the tongue. And I just found that the tongue can in part regrow if damaged/cut.

 

[TwiceIrish]

JVDS displays psychopathic behavior and it's something he was born with. JVDS doesn't have empathy towards others--doesn't feel anyone else's pain and doesn't care about hurting them. Plus, he is also a product of his environment--watching his father from even a very young age and learning from daddy how to treat others. There were no consequences to his improper behavior from the parents...he was raised in a permissive environment where he was saved from being in trouble by his parents. Really bad combo.

But make no mistake: the psychopathic behavior alone is enough to create a monster because his brain is simply not wired like a normal person's and nothing changes that.

Which makes these cases so fascinating and provocative because we try so hard to compare rational actions and minds to people who think completely differently than we do.

I am not sure if psychopathic behavior is a result nature and nurture, or just nature, or just nurture. I've heard it all ways from many different psychiatrists and psychologists.

As they say if you ask 100 professionals a question, you'll end up with 150 different answers.

 

[newone]

Chanier:

Thanks for your interest. As I wrote, I am not sure I want to get into this here and now, because of all the psychologizing I have read--and I am not saying that doesn't have some value. See below. Oh well, you asked.

But I will say those Peruvian military police have a good deal of insight! I think they know well, at least intrinsically, about the allergy/addiction syndrome!

And they used it well against Joran to get his confession.
(snipped for quotation)

And yes, Joran is likely undergoing one hell of a withdrawal now!!!

After I read your post I would probably squeal on my grandmother for a cup of coffee -- had to dash and get a cup --