Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #21

[georger]

Thanks, FLNY! It sure is difficult to get any credible information in this case. Even this article is in error in so far as Joe Tacopina was never one of Michael Jackson's lawyers but rather represented an associate of Michael Jackson.

Personally I dont care if Joe T. represented .... anyone.
I dont think even Solomon could get Joran out of his current fix.
I think that's going to begin to sink in, soon ... I hope. Joran can
raise his fee to $10million per interview, but it wont change any
of the basic facts. I doubt the Peruvians would even buy repentence
at this point ... why would they? I dont see any International
pressure building to change a thing.

 

[georger]

Never mind - where really counts, the final score will be Peru 1 / Netherlands 0

Best post made in days: Hoooooooray! :waitasec::angel::waitasec::innocent::furious::dance::furious::banghead::angel:

 

[georger]

Not wanting this to sound snarky, but WTF, if they can't afford the cost of a high profile attorney, maybe they should reconsider doing the crime then? I mean, boo hoo, they don't have a million to hire the best lawyer to get them off, golly gee, don't I feel sorry for them.......... Too freakin' bad.

He has been offered a Public Defender.

case closed:dance::dance::dance:

 

[georger]

No one is denying him funds for his defense. No one is taking money out of his (or his mother's) pocket and saying they can't use it for his defense that I'm aware of.

By this logic, if a defendant is denied the right to 'earn' his defense funds, his constitutional rights are being denied? The very fact that they're in jail and not free to earn an income however they're able (legally or illegally) would then be unconstitutional?

Because his crime is especially heinous or notorious, he should be afforded an advantage over those that don't have the ability to market their sick, sensational stories in order to raise defense funds for the very crime they're accused of?

It's a bit of a stretch to say that no crime has been commited because he hasn't been convicted - yet, IMO. Even if, for some reason, he's acquited of this crime, it certainly doesn't mean he didn't do it.

The improbables in this case are endless. Nobody asked Joran to be
in this position and no Law of Physics placed him there. Certain facts
may have inclined him toward this current predicament but he is no
Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin; he's just some from Aruba who finally
got caught and probably deserves treatment on that same level
commensurate with his status as a media clown. My mind wont
stretch any further than that. :waitasec:

 

[georger]

Good question! After the two taxi drivers didn't appear on June 24, the third driver (or passenger as quoted in some reports) remained scheduled to appear on Fri., June 25. But I scoured all the online Peruvian, Dutch and American news reports that weekend and last week and never found any mention of his hearing.

The original two were rescheduled to appear on July 5 and 6. We'll just have to wait and see if there is any report on them this week!!

http://translate.googleusercontent....&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhgezKs6E0WtQgTlLo3IdtuCblCGUQ

Maybe they are being represented by ... Geraldo?

I mean to say maybe they have slipped back into the cracks of
some cave whose cases will be dealt with less quickly, like all the
others whose cases in Peru who sit lingering - forever? Joran has
center stage. (and Im betting some fellow inmates aint too happy
about HIS SPECIAL TREATMENT.) The taxi guys probably wish they
had driven him to the nearest police station, or over a cliff.

 

[hollyblue]

Maybe they are being represented by ... Geraldo?

I mean to say maybe they have slipped back into the cracks of
some cave whose cases will be dealt with less quickly, like all the
others whose cases in Peru who sit lingering - forever? Joran has
center stage. (and Im betting some fellow inmates aint too happy
about HIS SPECIAL TREATMENT.) The taxi guys probably wish they
had driven him to the nearest police station, or over a cliff.

I'm sure they wished they had, but what concerns me at this point is.....they posted bond didn't they? I don't think they are waiting behind bars anywhere.? I really don't want to see witnesses in this case take off to Argentina or somewhere.

 

[suzihawk]

Lima (Peru.com) .- The Dutchman Joran van der Sloot is submitted from Tuesday and for two days of psychological testing as part of facing criminal proceedings for the murder of Peruvian student Stephany Flores, his lawyer said.


The team of experts will visit Van der Sloot, 22, in the Miguel Castro Castro prison, where he has been detained since June 11 after admitting to police he killed Flores, 21, in the hotel room who was staying in Lima.


The Peruvian lawyer of Van der Sloot, Maximum Highness said Tuesday that apart from the psychological testing that was performed by order of the judiciary, the defense will also present their own expert reports.


"We have requested that he give us permission to do that. We vamo to present our own psychological and psychiatric reports ... apart from that we will present the clinical history of Joran since childhood," said HRH.

http://translate.google.com/transla...as-en-penal-Miguel-Castro-Castro-&sl=es&tl=en


Here we go with the foundation for an insanity plea as suggested by his mother.

 

[21merc7]

So, what does an insanity defense garner in Peru? Heck, the criminal mental hospitals there may not be much more than a step above Castro Castro. Sure could be very dangerous with even less explanation of why the patient harmed you.

Anyone know anything about Peru and insanity defense?

 

[nervous_nellie]

Lima (Peru.com) .- The Dutchman Joran van der Sloot is submitted from Tuesday and for two days of psychological testing as part of facing criminal proceedings for the murder of Peruvian student Stephany Flores, his lawyer said.


The team of experts will visit Van der Sloot, 22, in the Miguel Castro Castro prison, where he has been detained since June 11 after admitting to police he killed Flores, 21, in the hotel room who was staying in Lima.


The Peruvian lawyer of Van der Sloot, Maximum Highness said Tuesday that apart from the psychological testing that was performed by order of the judiciary, the defense will also present their own expert reports.


"We have requested that he give us permission to do that. We vamo to present our own psychological and psychiatric reports ... apart from that we will present the clinical history of Joran since childhood," said HRH.

http://translate.google.com/transla...as-en-penal-Miguel-Castro-Castro-&sl=es&tl=en


Here we go with the foundation for an insanity plea as suggested by his mother.

well, it sounds like the prosecution side had him checked out by their shrinks first - so hopefully their side has already decided that he is NOT insane or anything close to it. i think this psych. testing is fairly common in most major (and even in not so major cases). i guess im not so concerned about all the psych wrangling...im more concerned with unforeseen technicality snafu's....

 

[faw720]

Lima (Peru.com) .- The Dutchman Joran van der Sloot is submitted from Tuesday and for two days of psychological testing as part of facing criminal proceedings for the murder of Peruvian student Stephany Flores, his lawyer said.


The team of experts will visit Van der Sloot, 22, in the Miguel Castro Castro prison, where he has been detained since June 11 after admitting to police he killed Flores, 21, in the hotel room who was staying in Lima.


The Peruvian lawyer of Van der Sloot, Maximum Highness said Tuesday that apart from the psychological testing that was performed by order of the judiciary, the defense will also present their own expert reports.


"We have requested that he give us permission to do that. We vamo to present our own psychological and psychiatric reports ... apart from that we will present the clinical history of Joran since childhood," said HRH.

http://translate.google.com/transla...as-en-penal-Miguel-Castro-Castro-&sl=es&tl=en


Here we go with the foundation for an insanity plea as suggested by his mother.

No doubt Joran will try to answer the questions in a way that will be to his advantage. Does anyone know if there are controls in place that allow the test administrators to determine if someone is trying to trick the system?

 

[Nova]

Not wanting this to sound snarky, but WTF, if they can't afford the cost of a high profile attorney, maybe they should reconsider doing the crime then? I mean, boo hoo, they don't have a million to hire the best lawyer to get them off, golly gee, don't I feel sorry for them.......... Too freakin' bad.

But your argument assumes every defendant is guilty of the crime with which he or she is charged. You and I know that isn't true. (Though I suspect we agree that JVDS almost certainly killed Ms. Flores. Again, however, the legal system can't be based on the gut reactions of media viewers.)

If every defendant were guilty, we wouldn't need any of the legal safeguards afforded the accused and we could discard much of the Constitution.

None of my arguments on this subject are based on feeling sorry for JVDS. But we're talking about the legal system. And that can't be reinvented for one defendant, nor discarded every time there is a crime that provokes our sense of outrage!

 

[Nova]

No doubt Joran will try to answer the questions in a way that will be to his advantage. Does anyone know if there are controls in place that allow the test administrators to determine if someone is trying to trick the system?

I can't explain how they work, but, yes, there are controls in any such test that are supposed to reveal dishonest answers. (To take but one example, my psychotherapist husband says the worst thing you can do when taking the MMPI as part of applying for a job is to try to guess what answers the employer wants to hear. Doing so will almost inevitably trip the controls and leave the testgiver with the impression that you are fundamentally dishonest.)

That being said, I doubt such controls are foolproof. Very little in psychological testing is. Nonetheless, it's unlikely JVDS will be able to game the testing process.

 

[Nova]

May I just add a general comment here?

It is the job of defense attorneys to try any and all avenues--even longshots--that may benefit their clients. It is the job of media producers and hosts to whip us all into a frenzy of panic so that we continue to watch their programs.

But the fact is that it is extremely rare for violent offenders to be freed on legal technicalities. Judges and prosecutors are people, too, and don't want to be responsible for a new spree of violent crime. When a particular piece of evidence is disallowed, there is almost always other evidence or some other way to get the lost evidence back in on some other ground. (In my experience based on a lifetime of watching and reading true crime cases, when defendants have been improperly freed, it is almost always a problem of bureaucratic snafus or the incompetence of individual civil servants, not an actual ruling by a judge.)

Likewise, in the U.S. at least (I admit I don't know Peruvian law on the subject), legal insanity is very, very narrowly defined, and the restrictions on the defense grow with every new court ruling. Actions such as attempting to conceal the crime and/or flee the jurisdiction quite commonly convince juries that the defendant knew what he did was wrong and against the law.

JVDS ain't goin' nowhere.

 

[FLNY]

So, what does an insanity defense garner in Peru? Heck, the criminal mental hospitals there may not be much more than a step above Castro Castro. Sure could be very dangerous with even less explanation of why the patient harmed you.

Anyone know anything about Peru and insanity defense?

Yes, there is an insanity defense in Peru. I had posted this awhile back:

Article on "Peru: The Rights to Remain Silent and To Counsel and the Insanity Defense"

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2010/6/22/25511/7429

Lots of legalese here, but IMO it boils down to whether or not he knows right from wrong....which there definitely is no doubt of that in my mind!!

But I wonder why the judge ordered more psychological testing when he had already been give the results of such a test by the PLE on June 21 when they turned over the case to the judge. Perhaps that's standard procedure...or, in this instance, they just want to be doubly sure.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/21/peru.murder.case/index.html?hpt=C1

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I agree with Nova. JVDS isn't going anywhere. The insanity defense is rarely used in the US, because of "technicalities" that make it difficult for defendents to use it.

In addition, it will be hard for Joran and his attorneys to explain away cleaning up the room, staging the "coffee run" scene, stealing the car, trying to change his appearance, and in general, his attempt to leave the country and avoid arrest--all of which point to his ability to think and plan, as well as his consciousness of guilt. Joran may be psychologically damaged goods and morally bankrupt, but he won't be "legally insane."

 

[Cottages]

The insanity defense is rarely used in the US, because of "technicalities" that make it difficult for defendents to use it.

In addition, it will be hard for Joran and his attorneys to explain away cleaning up the room, staging the "coffee run" scene, stealing the car, trying to change his appearance, and in general, his attempt to leave the country and avoid arrest--all of which point to his ability to think and plan, as well as his consciousness of guilt. Joran may be psychologically damaged goods and morally bankrupt, but he won't be "legally insane."

Agree. JVS is not legally insane. The insanity defense is commonly used when a murderer goes to trial and there is an abundance of evidence (as is self-defense). That is, they are limited to Affirmative Defenses (which is a defense that says, yes, I did it, but I had an "excuse"). It is rarely used because most don't go to trial in the first place.

When it is used, it is rarely successful, not because of a technicality or that it is narrowly defined or restrictive. It is rarely successful because legal insanity is strictly *construed* (at least the McNaughten test for legal insanity is...not every jurisdiction uses that test for legal insanity, but Peru, in essence, does). Under McNaughten, if the defendant knew his conduct was illegal, he can't, of course!, defend with "I am not blameworthy because I didn't know it was illegal." And, so, juries properly infer that the defendant knew what he did was wrong if he fled or tried to conceal his crime. The defendant can't have it both ways: I knew it was illegal/wrong; I didn't know it was illegal/wrong. It's one or the other.

The claim that "legal insanity is very, very narrowly defined, and the restrictions on the defense grow with every new court ruling," is not true. In fact, the insanity defense was expanded by the jury in Andrea Yates' second trial. She was not acquitted in the first trial because she called police to tell them what she did (clearly then, she knew it was illegal, after all, she didn't call a funeral home). In her second trial, the jury broadened McNaughten to include a defense that she did not know it was "morally wrong" (vs. legally wrong). Yates whole-heartedly believed it was morally correct to kill her children before they reached the age of accountability for their sins, which, in her mind, superseded the law. Superseding the law is most definitely a broadening of McNaughten. And while the jury's determination was not stare decisis, Yates acquittal was not overturned on grounds of an impermissible interpretation of the law.

 

[suzihawk]

Cottages... thank you so much for sharing your vast knowledge and for explaining it in terms that I can easily understand. Much appreciated!

 

[faw720]

Just thinking out loud here. I definitly think that a rational part of Joran knew that killing Stephanie was a crime. However, he has such an over-inflated opinion of himself & feels entitled to do whatever he wants. Could he claim that it was ok for him to kill Stephanie because he felt entitled to do so? Could his abnormal sense of entitlement be considered insanity?

IMO, it would be a real hoot if a declaration of insanity brought a sentence of life in lock-up in an asylum whereas murder would only get him 35 years.

 

[LookingUp]

Yes, there is an insanity defense in Peru. I had posted this awhile back:

Article on "Peru: The Rights to Remain Silent and To Counsel and the Insanity Defense"

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2010/6/22/25511/7429

Lots of legalese here, but IMO it boils down to whether or not he knows right from wrong....which there definitely is no doubt of that in my mind!!

But I wonder why the judge ordered more psychological testing when he had already been give the results of such a test by the PLE on June 21 when they turned over the case to the judge. Perhaps that's standard procedure...or, in this instance, they just want to be doubly sure.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/21/peru.murder.case/index.html?hpt=C1

FLNY ... I don't think the judge has ordered more psychological testing. The add'l testing is for/by his defense lawyers' using their own experts. I could be reading it wrong but, here's a snippet of Suzihawk's post #528 at the top of this page:

The Peruvian lawyer of Van der Sloot, Maximum Highness said Tuesday that apart from the psychological testing that was performed by order of the judiciary, the defense will also present their own expert reports.


"We have requested that he give us permission to do that. We vamo to present our own psychological and psychiatric reports ... apart from that we will present the clinical history of Joran since childhood," said HRH.


The "he" BBM ... I assume refers to Joran ... not the judge. MOO

 

[FLNY]

FLNY ... I don't think the judge has ordered more psychological testing. The add'l testing is for/by his defense lawyers' using their own experts. I could be reading it wrong but, here's a snippet of Suzihawk's post #528 at the top of this page:

The Peruvian lawyer of Van der Sloot, Maximum Highness said Tuesday that apart from the psychological testing that was performed by order of the judiciary, the defense will also present their own expert reports.


"We have requested that he give us permission to do that. We vamo to present our own psychological and psychiatric reports ... apart from that we will present the clinical history of Joran since childhood," said HRH.


The "he" BBM ... I assume refers to Joran ... not the judge. MOO

Thanks, LookingUp! But it was reported on Monday that the Court ordered additional psychological testing: :innocent:

http://translate.googleusercontent....&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhgnN7bQ65Q2qdOFswlhSXCfPaTtng

I believe the link by Suzihawk was referring to that court ordered testing, then following up by saying that the defense team would be performing their own testing as well.....I agree that the text in that link was somewhat misleading.