Pineapple Rules Out Intruder

[sissi]

It suggests to me that she may have vomited her dinner, if not, where was this cracked crab, hot dog, and turkey blend? If she vomited, she wasn't murdered in that house! JMO

 

[RedChief]

It suggests to me that she may have vomited her dinner, if not, where was this cracked crab, hot dog, and turkey blend? If she vomited, she wasn't murdered in that house! JMO

sissi,

What is it that suggests to you that she may have vomited her dinner?

Where is the cracked crab, hot dog and turkey blend? Assuming she actually ate those items in particular, they are the soft green fecal material in her large intestine. There was something in the stomach as well as in the proximal portion of the small intestine: "(8-10 cc) of viscous to green to tan colored thick mucous material without particulate matter identified". Anyone know what that was?

 

[sissi]

Okay, but I am giving a child a full six hours (likely longer) for food to get no further along the tract than the small intestine. I suggest longer, because "moms" clean it up, during illnesses, bangs on the head, super looper rides, and we just "know". Why does it bother everyone so much to consider Jonbenet could have vomited, and could have been murdered in the garage of the killer? Does it make the crime worse in some way?
He took his prey to his lair, isn't that a line in so many murder stories. Don't we follow crime enough to realize most murderers ,murder where they feel the most comfortable. Disposing of the body, well that was risky, but not as risky as having the cops check out your outbuildings.

 

[BlueCrab]

sissi,

The dinner JonBenet ate around 7 p.m. at the White's house was in the large intestine, right about where it should have been. The dinner is not "missing". JonBenet did not vomit because there's zero evidence of her vomiting.

Except for the dinner in the large intestine, which would be the final leg of the slow journey through some 15-feet of intestines, the only other food in the digestive system was the pineapple in the small intestine. The stomach was empty except for normal digestive juices.

The evidence suggests JonBenet ate the pineapple about one hour before she died. The evidence also indicates Burke was with her when she ate the pineapple. The pineapple proves there was no intruder. Inventing vomit evidence out of thin air does not change the facts.

BlueCrab

 

[sandraladeda]

Okay, but I am giving a child a full six hours (likely longer) for food to get no further along the tract than the small intestine. I suggest longer, because "moms" clean it up, during illnesses, bangs on the head, super looper rides, and we just "know". Why does it bother everyone so much to consider Jonbenet could have vomited, and could have been murdered in the garage of the killer? Does it make the crime worse in some way?
He took his prey to his lair, isn't that a line in so many murder stories. Don't we follow crime enough to realize most murderers ,murder where they feel the most comfortable. Disposing of the body, well that was risky, but not as risky as having the cops check out your outbuildings.

I am a "mom that cleans it up" too, but I think there is a difference between normal digestion - moves along quickly - and digestion (or lack thereof) when a stomach bug is taking hold - doesn't move along, sits there and waits to be chucked up.

As to the killer "taking her to his lair", I would not, personally, choose to kill at MY lair if I was the killer, I would want to do the deed as far away from my "lair" as possible. Travelling back and forth with a body risks detection, forensic evidence left at the "lair" and at the R's home, would be cumbersome, and is not in evidence, at all.

IMO

 

[RedChief]

He took his prey to his lair, isn't that a line in so many murder stories. Don't we follow crime enough to realize most murderers ,murder where they feel the most comfortable. Disposing of the body, well that was risky, but not as risky as having the cops check out your outbuildings.

sissi,

You keep us on our toes. Do corpses scream? Has anyone investigated the Richardson twins yet--the 30 yr-olds? Were they male or female? Someone mentioned the possibility that Ms. Stanton heard the scream because it came from her own premises. The twins were living there at the time.

Way too risky to be transporting a body and returning it to the Ramsey mansion. A dumpster would have been more convenient. Also, could have fed it to the wolves, or dismembered it and discarded body parts down storm drains as the Lipstick Murderer did. Also, getting out of the house with the girl or her body would have been superior to leaving the body in the house, from the standpoint of collecting a ransom.

 

[Seeker]

Seeker,

The turkey (from the 1998 interviews):

LOU SMIT: "I would like to just know, perhaps, what you ate or whether the children ate, or if it was different, or how things were set up."

JOHN RAMSEY : "Well, all I can specifically remember was the cracked crab. I think they had a turkey dinner. But I think she made, she always makes these little hot dogs with barbecue sauce that the kids love."


The pineapple (from the 2000 interviews):

MIKE KANE: "Have you had any forensic people look into the issue of the pineapple that was found in JonBenet's digestive tract?"

LIN WOOD: "Let me ask you this, Michael. Are you stating as a matter of fact that it was pineapple without any question?"

MIKE KANE: "That was stated two years ago in the interview. Yes. There is no doubt about it."

LIN WOOD: "Are you stating it as fact?"

MIKE KANE: "Lou Smit told Mr. Ramsey that too."

LIN WOOD: "I just want to make sure it's clear that you're stating it as a matter of fact and not opinion that it is pineapple."

MIKE KANE: "It is pineapple."

BlueCrab

About the turkey dinner....duuuuuhhhhhh, ummmmmmm, "ah thiiiiink they had a turkey dinner". Hello? Wasn't he there? Didn't he eat any dinner or what? "I think"?

Forget it BC, IMO JR is a pathological liar and most probably the main brain behind the cover up of the murder.

 

[Seeker]

Seeker,


Dictionary definition: INTRUDE: "to thrust oneself in without invitation, permission, or welcome".

If Burke and JonBenet innocently but purposely let the killer into the house late that night, then that person wouldn't be an intruder.

In my BDI theories I call that person "the fifth person in the house that night".

If that person had thrust himself in without invitation, permission, or welcome, I would have called that person "an intruder".

There was no intruder. The pineapple evidence proves it. JonBenet would not have sat at the breakfast room table and snacked on pineapple with an intruder. The tea and the fingerprints show that Burke was the one at the table with JonBenet, not an intruder. But why were Burke and JonBenet secretly downstairs together in the middle of the night after the parents had gone to bed?

The question is -- if they were waiting for someone to show up so they could let him in, WHO was it?

BlueCrab

BC there is absolutely no evidence that JB ate anything while with someone else either. The bowl could have been sitting on the counter all day long and she could have woke up in the middle of the night, went downstairs and then snacked on it without anyone else being down there. Kids do that sometimes. The tea(bag) in the glass proves nothing either and Burke's prints were not found on the glass.

Why do you assume she had to have eaten any in the presence of someone else? There were rope fibers (or some kind of fibers) found in her bed that shouldn't have been there weren't there? She could have been killed in her bedroom then taken to the basement afterwards. She also had some of the green garland from the stair banister in her hair...could be from someone carrying her down.

 

[UKGuy]

Seeker:

BlueCrab's BDI explains more facts in the JonBenet case than anyone elses whodunnit.

Although it dont explain everything e.g.

In my BDI theories I call that person "the fifth person in the house that night".

That 5th guy walked out of the Ramsay House, probably whistling the signature tune to the fugitive, and away into the melting morning snow. He left behind his victim, a victim that only needed to be deposited a block or two away to make the ransom note abduction 100% realistic, but that never occurred. Very out of character for such an astute perpetrator?

But the BDI covers a lot of ground so its a good starting point.



If the bowl of pineapple had been placed on the table earlier in the day/evening why did Patsy and John deny any knowledge of it?

There was pineapple residue found in her digestive system ...

Now just to muddy the waters so to speak, its entirely possible the pineapple bowl and tea-glass have been placed on the table, as what I term as "cleanup staging" e.g. Moved as forensic evidence from one location to another.

So that bowl may have been upstairs or down in the basement, some of the associated artifacts like the tea-glass or the bowl actually dont have their fingerprints on them. Does that ring bells? Think back to the flashlight: cleaned of prints, think back to JonBenet's body: cleaned up, and her body was also relocated and staged in the wine-cellar.

Can you discern a forensic pattern? If so maybe some things are not what they seem?

I think there was at least two major stagings of JonBenet's death scene, and a lot of what we view as evidence is a mixture of her wine-cellar staging, and how it was staged prior to this, with some of that forensic evidence very quickly relocated to destroy any vision we could gain of a crime scene.

 

[RedChief]

Seeker:
BlueCrab's BDI explains more facts in the JonBenet case than anyone elses whodunnit.

Ahem, I think it more correct to say that BDI explains facts that don't seem to point to the parents. There are alternative theories which don't see everything that moves, or is hiding in the wine cellar, as staging, which also explain the facts.

If the bowl of pineapple had been placed on the table earlier in the day/evening why did Patsy and John deny any knowledge of it?

They denied knowledge of it because they didn't place it there and weren't aware that it had been placed there.

So that bowl may have been upstairs or down in the basement, some of the associated artifacts like the tea-glass or the bowl actually dont have their fingerprints on them. Does that ring bells? Think back to the flashlight: cleaned of prints, think back to JonBenet's body: cleaned up, and her body was also relocated and staged in the wine-cellar.

The flashlight: at what point in time did LE "discover" that it had been wiped clean of prints, and that the batteries (cells) had been wiped clean of prints? The flashlight was unaccounted for (for a time) while it should have been in police custody; i.e., in their evidence room or property room. Maybe it's owner, a policeman, withdrew it and cleaned it up and returned it so as to avoid embarrassment. Also, before you can state with confidence that it had been wiped clean of prints, you must first know that it had at one time contained those prints. It could have been wiped clean, as you say, before it was brought to the crime scene by the perp who wore gloves in the commission of the crime. Always alternative explanations that buzz around like annoying mosquitos to those who wish they'd go away.

The bowl: Beg your pardon; the bowl DID have "their" fingerprints on it; it had Burke's and Patsy's. Avon calling!

"Who can cling to a rambling rose?"--NKK

 

[UKGuy]

RedChief,

Since I'm having visions of staging I'll drop the theme altogether!

Always alternative explanations that buzz around like annoying mosquitos to those who wish they'd go away.

Consider me gone ...

 

[RedChief]

RedChief,

Since I'm having visions of staging I'll drop the theme altogether!


Consider me gone ...

No, UKGUY, don't go! You're one of the best thinkers we've got. I didn't mean to be rude. Just wanted to remind you that there are alternative explanations. This isn't an easy scene to analyze. I still think that the intruder theory has legs; but it limps along on crutches from time to time. I think the correct theory will jump out at us when all the evidence has been carefully analyzed and discussed. The pieces will click into place, eventually but the assembler is still at work.

Now, come back here, you rascal!

PS: The "annoying mosquitos" were the alternative explantions, not those who are trumpeting the staging theory. I can see how you may have misunderstood this.

 

[sissi]

"If the bowl had been in place earlier why did the Ramseys have no knowledge of it?" GOOD QUESTION RC. Now what?
Can we suggest they hadn't used that little area since the 23rd and the bowl was placed there by LHP, but if so, then why would the police say, Patsy's and Burke's prints were on it, why weren't LHP's, or did they not need to say, P's, B's and LHP's? Patsy's... okay, she emptied the dishwasher, Burkes? He helped? The server...who was it? OR was it not related to the crime, was it placed there by that little "hospitality" crew that Arndt called in?

 

[BlueCrab]

"If the bowl had been in place earlier why did the Ramseys have no knowledge of it?" GOOD QUESTION RC. Now what?
Can we suggest they hadn't used that little area since the 23rd and the bowl was placed there by LHP, but if so, then why would the police say, Patsy's and Burke's prints were on it, why weren't LHP's, or did they not need to say, P's, B's and LHP's? Patsy's... okay, she emptied the dishwasher, Burkes? He helped? The server...who was it? OR was it not related to the crime, was it placed there by that little "hospitality" crew that Arndt called in?

sissi,

It has been scientifically verified that the pineapple in JonBenet's digestive system came from the bowl of pineapple on the breakfast room table. So the civilian advocates called in by the cops didn't put the pineapple out on the table that morning. The bowl of pineapple had set out all night.

Also, it is BURKE'S fingerprints on the bowl, not the fingerprints of the advocates. Patsy's fingerprints were on the bowl because it was she who took the bowl from the dishwasher and put it away in the cabinet. Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl because he's the one who got the bowl down from the cabinet and put pineapple in it.

If an intruder had done it HIS fingerprints would be on the bowl, not Burke's.

Try as you may, sissi, you cannot ignore the fact that the pineapple evidence proves there was no intruder. JonBenet was downstairs with Burke, and she would not have sat at the table with an intruder and snacked on pineapple while the intruder had himself a glass of tea.

There was no intruder.

BlueCrab

 

[RedChief]

"If the bowl had been in place earlier why did the Ramseys have no knowledge of it?" GOOD QUESTION RC. Now what?
Can we suggest they hadn't used that little area since the 23rd and the bowl was placed there by LHP, but if so, then why would the police say, Patsy's and Burke's prints were on it, why weren't LHP's, or did they not need to say, P's, B's and LHP's? Patsy's... okay, she emptied the dishwasher, Burkes? He helped? The server...who was it? OR was it not related to the crime, was it placed there by that little "hospitality" crew that Arndt called in?

sissi,

OK, when was the bowl found? When was it photographed? Supposing it had been in the location in which it was found and photographed since 9:30 the previous night. So what?

I don't see this bowl of pineapple as being proof of anything other than at some time Burke had touched it and Patsy had touched it, if you can believe LE. If we can't trust LE, we're in a definite bind. How can we have an intelligent discussion/debate if none of us agrees as to the facts? Also, it wouldn't be necessary that they both touched it during the same fruit frenzy. Why aren't JB's prints on it? Why would the parents lie about the pineapple? Patsy has said the kids were free to help themselves to the pineapple. Since we have estimated that JB ate the pineapple somewhere between 10:00 PM and 3:00 AM, there is opportunity for JB to get up and go down and help herself to pineapple. Granted if you seize upon the 10:00 PM figure as being the truth of the matter, then you might suspect that she could have been fed prior to going to bed, since the parents have said they put her to bed at about that time. However, if you keep an open mind, you don't blind yourself to the possibility that the kids ate the pineapple AFTER the parents went to bed. I'm sure we will all select the times that are the most appropriate for our various theories.

ESTIMATES: If you take the pineapple in JonBenet's small intestine, near where it exits the stomach, into account, along with the fecal material in the large intestine (we don't know how far along that had traveled within the colon), knowing the statistics on digestion that BC has graciously provided, you can ESTIMATE when she ate the pineapple relative to when she ate whatever had traveled as far as the large bowel. If we are convinced that what is in the large bowel is what she ate at the Whites', and if we know approximately when this eating was terminated (we don't know what the extent of the fecal material was nor how far it was strung out along the gut), and if we assume the location of the fecal material with respect to the entrance to the colon, we can ESTIMATE when she ate the pineapple. If we assume that the fecal material was near the proximal end of the colon (we know it was in the colon) where it attaches to the small intestine, then we can simply add the transit time (4-8 hours) through the small intestine (SI) to the transit time from stomach to the entrance to the SI (1-3 hours). If we assume that transit time of the pineapple and the turkey dinner (TD) through the stomach was 3 hours each (for the sake of discussion), and the transit time of the TD through the SI was 8 hours, then JB was alive for as long as 11 hours after she ingested the TD, and for as long as 3 hours after she ingested the pineapple. During those 3 hours while the pineapple was churning in the stomach and heading toward the SI, the TD was heading toward the large intestine (LI). If they finished eating dinner at the Whites' at 7:00 PM, then JonBenet was alive until 6:00 AM. This would mean that she finished eating the pineapple at about 3:00 AM. So, she could not have just finished eating the pineapple while she was at the Whites', which would be a worst case scenario for nonbelievers. If we use the shorter transit times, we get that JB was alive for no more than 5 hours after she finished consuming dinner at the Whites' at 7:00 PM. That is to say, she was dead by midnight, and would have finished eating the pineapple at around 11:00 PM. Again (to remind) this assumes the fecal material was in close proximity to the entrance to the LI. If it was, in fact, farther along in the LI, then we'd have to adjust our figures outward in time. If we assume that the TD was terminated at 6:00 PM, then either JB was alive until 5:00 AM and finished eating the pineapple at 2:00 AM, or she was alive until 11:00 PM, and finished eating the pineapple at around 10:00 PM.

Criminy!

 

[jaeger]

Try as you may, sissi, you cannot ignore the fact that the pineapple evidence proves there was no intruder. JonBenet was downstairs with Burke, and she would not have sat at the table with an intruder and snacked on pineapple while the intruder had himself a glass of tea.

It depends on your definition of "intruder." If the intruder had been someone JonBenet knew and trusted, she certainly could have had a snack in his prescence. Seems like there were quite a few people who didn't necessarily belong in the house at that time, but still wouldn't have caused any alarm in her mind.

BTW, I'm not arguing for or against an intruder; I'm still undecided on that point. I simply disagree that the pineapple proves there was no intruder.

 

[BlueCrab]

It depends on your definition of "intruder." If the intruder had been someone JonBenet knew and trusted, she certainly could have had a snack in his prescence. Seems like there were quite a few people who didn't necessarily belong in the house at that time, but still wouldn't have caused any alarm in her mind.

BTW, I'm not arguing for or against an intruder; I'm still undecided on that point. I simply disagree that the pineapple proves there was no intruder.

Jaeger,

My definition of an intruder is the dictionary definition:

"to thrust oneself in without invitation, permission, or welcome"

A person INVITED into the house should not be considered an intruder; he would be considered a guest, or a visitor, or company, or he could be called some other innocent term. IOW, if JonBenet and/or Burke let the person into the house that night, then it was someone they knew and therefore the person they let in wasn't an intruder.

The pineapple proves there was no intruder because JonBenet wouldn't have gone downstairs in the middle of the night and snacked on pineapple with a person who had just broken into the house. Also, the empty glass of tea and Burke's fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple indicate Burke was downstairs with JonBenet about one hour before she died (estimated from the digestion rate of the pineapple). Burke wouldn't have stood by quietly while the intruder violated and killed JonBenet, and wrote a 3-page ransom note.

There was no intruder, and the pineapple evidence proves it.

BlueCrab

 

[BlueCrab]

BC there is absolutely no evidence that JB ate anything while with someone else either. The bowl could have been sitting on the counter all day long and she could have woke up in the middle of the night, went downstairs and then snacked on it without anyone else being down there. Kids do that sometimes. The tea(bag) in the glass proves nothing either and Burke's prints were not found on the glass.

Seeker,

Sorry my friend, but there IS evidence of Burke and JonBenet being downstairs together.

Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple. JonBenet wasn't tall enough to reach the bowls stored in the overhead kitchen cabinrt, but Burke was. So Burke was the only person who handled the bowl, other than when Patsy, at an earlier date, had put away the clean bowl in the kitchen cabinet. Burke was the resident tea drinker, so the glass with the tea bag in it points to him. And it appears JonBenet and Burke sat at their regular places at the breakfast room table as JonBenet ate the pineapple and Burke sipped the tea.

The fingerprint evidence, the glass of tea evidence, the height of the cabinets evidence, and the sitting places at the table evidence, puts Burke downstairs with JonBenet about one hour before she died. There's no video tape of it, but you gotta read whatever evidence is available and come up with the most likely scenario.

BlueCrab

 

[sissi]

Does the glass with the tea bag really point toward Burke? I don't have ONE that would get himself a tea bag ,boil water, and fix his own tea at age nine. Our nine year old loves tea, has it fixed for him every morning before school, and I "still" say, "watch it it's hot". In a household where there were four "household helpers" do ya' think the kids weren't use to being waited on?

OH,BTW..who were these four??? LHP said in an interview ," the house was too much for one, soon "we" had four".

 

[BlueCrab]

I don't see this bowl of pineapple as being proof of anything other than at some time Burke had touched it and Patsy had touched it, if you can believe LE.


Why would the parents lie about the pineapple?

The bowl of pineapple is more than being merely two sets of fingerprints on a bowl. The bowl of pineapple proves there was no intruder and could be the most important piece of evidence in this case. That's the bowl that JonBenet snacked from about one hour before she died. Burke's fingerprints on the bowl and his empty glass of tea can place Burke downstairs with JonBenet at about that same time. If there had been an intruder, then the INTRUDER'S fingerprints would be on the bowl, not Burke's fingerprints.

And JonBenet would not have sat down at the table with an intruder and snacked on pineapple while the intruder sipped tea. It proves beyond reasonable doubt there was no intruder.

In regard to why the Ramseys lied about not feeding pineapple to JonBenet, THEY DIDN'T LIE. They were asleep. Burke and JonBenet likely came downstairs in the middle of the night and helped themselves. The giant silver serving spoon in the little white bowl of pineapple pretty much reveals it as the work of children.

BlueCrab