GUILTY PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #114

[otto]

do we know how he entered? balcony... upstairs window?

Patio door (slider) entering kitchen.
Red is point of entry
Yellow is Maddie bedroom
Green is Xana bedroom

 

[realanastasia]

On the Pennsylvania webpage, Commonwealth v. Kohberger 682 MD 2022, none of the links for the search warrant returns for the murderer’s family home, car, and person are correct (the home link is for the person, the person link is for the car, and the car link is for the home):

View attachment 604783

One of the questions Fixler answered during today’s Idaho Statesman’s livestream event, “Covering the University of Idaho Murders,” (starting at 42:29) asked if we would find out more details about the items found in the LE search of the murderer’s family home in PA.

Fixler specifically addressed the book with underlining on page 118, the Glock, and the ID cards that were found in a glove in a box:

View attachment 604785
View attachment 604786

Fixler said the Glock had nothing to do with the crime scene, but I’d like to know if the gun was registered to the murderer and if he brought it with him to Washington (and Idaho). If the murderer had been captured immediately after his rampage, “suicide by cop” might have been one of his ultimate escape plans (plus he liked to frequent wild places at night, when he might encounter large predators like bears or mountain lions, or other crazy men).

Fixler said he asked Bill Thompson about the book with underlining on page 118, which many people have asked about. Thompson didn’t know which book was underlined, but he said LE found a lot of academic books on forensic psychology, criminal justice, and criminology. Fixler promised to follow up with investigators to find out the identity of the underlined book, which I, for one, am eager to know.

Finally, Fixler said that none of the ID cards that were found in a glove in a box belonged to any of the victims. Instead, one of the cards belonged to a female security guard the murderer worked with at Pleasant Valley School District back in PA, and the other belonged to another woman whose identity was not revealed. Both women were surprised that the murderer had their ID cards.

The Patterson book had a passage (no page number, sorry—I had to return the book to the library because there’s a long line of patrons eager to read it) that described how, in Ramsland’s class, one of the cases studied was Elliott Rodgers (incel loser who went on a rampage of violence against female college students in California). In this part of the book, Patterson pulls some quotes from Rodgers’ “manifesto”—including at least one that Patterson pointedly notes originally appeared on page 118. I may be misremembering so take this as IMO, but I thought it was where Rodgers talked about how he chose the date for his attack—it had to be a “regular” college party night, not a holiday (he considered Halloween but decided against it).

This section of Patterson’s book naturally comes before Kohberger’s apartment/car/parents’ home are raided and evidence seized, and he mentions one of the seized items was a book with a passage on p. 118 underlined. I interpreted this as Patterson’s way of telling the reader what that book was, without having to come right out and say that it was ER’s garbage…er, “manifesto.”

 

[otto]

The Patterson book had a passage (no page number, sorry—I had to return the book to the library because there’s a long line of patrons eager to read it) that described how, in Ramsland’s class, one of the cases studied was Elliott Rodgers (incel loser who went on a rampage of violence against female college students in California). In this part of the book, Patterson pulls some quotes from Rodgers’ “manifesto”—including at least one that Patterson pointedly notes originally appeared on page 118. I may be misremembering so take this as IMO, but I thought it was where Rodgers talked about how he chose the date for his attack—it had to be a “regular” college party night, not a holiday (he considered Halloween but decided against it).

This section of Patterson’s book naturally comes before Kohberger’s apartment/car/parents’ home are raided and evidence seized, and he mentions one of the seized items was a book with a passage on p. 118 underlined. I interpreted this as Patterson’s way of telling the reader what that book was, without having tocome right out and say that it was ER’s garbage…er, “manifesto.”

How a murderer chose a date is related to Kohberger's capstone project. The page could have been marked since his master degree capstone project.

"Bolger said she advised Kohberger with his thesis, which involved questioning people about their thoughts and feelings during the commission of a crime.

“I was one of the professors who helped Bryan with his proposal on his graduate thesis, his capstone project. He did put out a routine questionnaire for his thesis. It looks weird, I understand from the public view. But in criminology it’s normal,” she told the Daily Mail.

“It’s a criminology theory called script theory, it’s a normal theory on how and why criminals commit their crime, etc.,” she said."

Accused Idaho killer Bryan Kohberger was a ‘brilliant student,’ DeSales professor claims

“In my 10 years of teaching, I’ve only recommended two students to a Ph.D program and he was one of them. He was one of my best students, ever,” DeSales University Associate Professor M…

nypost.com

 

[gremlin444]

The Patterson book had a passage (no page number, sorry—I had to return the book to the library because there’s a long line of patrons eager to read it) that described how, in Ramsland’s class, one of the cases studied was Elliott Rodgers (incel loser who went on a rampage of violence against female college students in California). In this part of the book, Patterson pulls some quotes from Rodgers’ “manifesto”—including at least one that Patterson pointedly notes originally appeared on page 118. I may be misremembering so take this as IMO, but I thought it was where Rodgers talked about how he chose the date for his attack—it had to be a “regular” college party night, not a holiday (he considered Halloween but decided against it).

This section of Patterson’s book naturally comes before Kohberger’s apartment/car/parents’ home are raided and evidence seized, and he mentions one of the seized items was a book with a passage on p. 118 underlined. I interpreted this as Patterson’s way of telling the reader what that book was, without having tocome right out and say that it was ER’s garbage…er, “manifesto.”

ER's manifesto wasn't originally printed in a book format.

Originally it was created as an electronic document that he either sent as an attachment or sent a url of it in an email.

California authorities knew of but didn't view Elliot Rodger's videos

Disclosure by Santa Barbara County sheriff's department corrected earlier assertion that deputies were unaware of any videos

www.theguardian.com

"One minute later, he emailed a lengthy written manifesto to his mother, father and therapist that also detailed his plans and contempt for everyone he felt was responsible for his sexual frustrations and overall miserable existence."

Even if years later it was printed in its entirety in book format for criminology students to use for study, the pg 118 in the original document likely wouldn't match up with page 118 in a printed book version--which would likely have acknowledgements, a forward, maybe even an introductory chapter and/or index before it even got to the manifesto. Differences in formatting between a typed electronic document and book copy would also cause the page numbers to be the same.

Patterson's book makes several stretches, if not leaps in assuming thing or creating assumptions in the readers, IMHO.

Sure, it's possible that by some coincidence on page 118 of one of BK's book there was something about ER....but I can guarantee the underlined passage could not and did not correspond to whatever was on page 118 of ER's original manifesto document.

 

[otto]

Kohberger's capstone project focused on script theory, which was developed in 1994. It does not currently have value in criminology. Kohberger based his work on posting questions online.

Criminology: Script Theory (Kohberger's capstone project for Master degree)

"In 1994, Derek Cornish introduced the concept of crime scripts to the field of environmental criminology with a paper entitled ‘The procedural analysis of offending and its relevance for situational prevention’ (Cornish, 1994a).

This work had one clear objective: to provide academics and practitioners working in the field of crime prevention with a clear, innovative and applicable theoretical framework to the study of crime-commission processes. Drawing from cognitive psychology, Cornish retraced the origins of scripts and outlined its potential for better understanding crime-commission processes.

By applying scripts to crime, Cornish developed a procedural framework to identify the complete sequence of actions adopted prior to, during and following the commission of a particular crime and thereby to offer a fuller range of intervention points to disrupt crime commission. Because offenders can learn from their mistakes when committing crimes, Cornish also discussed how crime scripts can evolve when disrupted by obstacles that prevent their completion
...

Despite a recent increase of interest in the application of script analysis to various forms of crime, the full value of scripts has not been realized."

New developments in script analysis for situational crime prevention |

In 1994, Derek Cornish introduced the concept of crime scripts to the field of environmental criminology with a paper entitled ‘The procedural analysis of

www.taylorfrancis.com

 

[FoxxTraxx]

The Patterson book had a passage (no page number, sorry—I had to return the book to the library because there’s a long line of patrons eager to read it) that described how, in Ramsland’s class, one of the cases studied was Elliott Rodgers (incel loser who went on a rampage of violence against female college students in California). In this part of the book, Patterson pulls some quotes from Rodgers’ “manifesto”—including at least one that Patterson pointedly notes originally appeared on page 118. I may be misremembering so take this as IMO, but I thought it was where Rodgers talked about how he chose the date for his attack—it had to be a “regular” college party night, not a holiday (he considered Halloween but decided against it).

This section of Patterson’s book naturally comes before Kohberger’s apartment/car/parents’ home are raided and evidence seized, and he mentions one of the seized items was a book with a passage on p. 118 underlined. I interpreted this as Patterson’s way of telling the reader what that book was, without having to come right out and say that it was ER’s garbage…er, “manifesto.”

Page 127 of the Patterson/Ward book may be what you remember:

On page 118 of his manifesto Elliot Rodger wrote that he planned to carry out his day of retribution scheme in November. At first he planned to do it on Halloween, because it was the ultimate party night.

''There would literally be thousands of people crowded together I could kill with ease....
But then I saw there were too many cops walking around. The Day of Retribution would have to be a normal party weekend, so I set it for some time in November 2013.''

 

[jepop]

Did the cell records show him going back near that tower after the murders? If he did not go back that's pretty telling. Or maybe they didn't continue to trace it? Sorry im trying to keep up.

RBBB. Yeah, I've always thought this was pretty telling. Investigators did have access to all that historical data via AT&T warrant, so they were able to trace his post crime cell phone pings retrospectively. Imo

According to the Probable Cause Affidavit and other court docs on the Cases of Interest page, after Nov 14th his phone never once utilised cellular resources consistent with 1122 King Road or any other area in Moscow again (and Nov 14th was an anomaly -see PCA - so Nov 13th at around 9am is the last actual date). He left for PA with his dad on about Dec 13th /14th from memory.

So what that says to me is he either never returned to Moscow again or if he did ever go within range again he deliberately turned his phone off prior. We don't know details (yet) about recovered on/off logs stored in his phone after the murders, though moo investigators do. But either way I find it suspect that his phone suddenly ceases to ever connect with Moscow cellular towers again. I feel like the state would have brought this fact into evidence had a trial been necessary. Jmo

PCA linked below from page 1 of the thread. It's in there, though I don't know which page.

122922 Affidavit - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett Payne.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - 122922 Affidavit - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett Payne.pdf -

pdfhost.io

Eta, unsure if the link to PCA still works or is active since the case resolved. Annoying if it doesn't.

 

[iamshadow21]

All split level homes are really weird, but I kinda love them. My childhood best friend lived in a split level that was so jealous of. The kitchen was like three steps up from the living room and almost overlooked it in a way, and then her parents bedroom was up a flight of stairs behind the only real wall in the living room. The dining room was behind the kitchen and then you had to walk up three more stairs to get to the foyer and the hallway that led to bedrooms. Then the hallway wrapped around to another flight of stairs that led to a few more bedrooms (she had like six siblings, ha!) It was truly like a maze in there.

They're hell to heat and air condition. My friend from high school lives in one that was built in the sixties or seventies. All the levels open to each other and it has a cathedral ceiling to top it off. And you have to go up or down steps to get to everything, which is an accessibility nightmare. It was built into a slope, too, like the Moscow house was.

MOO

 

[snooptroop88]

Patio door (slider) entering kitchen.
Red is point of entry
Yellow is Maddie bedroom
Green is Xana bedroom

View attachment 604854
View attachment 604852
View attachment 604853

Great to see a house scaled to the size of Monsterberger's conscience.

But in all seriousness, I am creeped out by this little house. I mean, they tore the original down, so now they're making this Spinal Tap Stonehenge version of the house?? It looks like a little dollhouse, and under the circumstances, it gives me the creeps.

I still wish they'd left the real house intact., but this thing?? I hope someone develops a little miniature mobile crane and wrecking ball and takes this house out.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

Brian Entin asks, Where is the knife?

The witness thinks she saw the murderer on the bank of the Snake River the afternoon of the murders.


Source: Supp 275 of the Moscow Police investigation documents

ETA: The maps Entin shows are not particularly helpful. Here are some that might be more helpful, courtesy of Google maps.

Based on the police report, I think the witness saw the murderer in the grassy area between Wawawai Rd (how fitting) and the Snake River, east (right) of the Red Wolf Crossing Bridge.



For context, the map below shows the Costco in Clarkston, and labels the Red Wolf Crossing Bridge and Wawawai Rd as Hwy 128:

 

[girlhasnoname]

He was in person during undergrad studies, 2018-2020.
I'm guessing here but with some level of experience behind the guesses: Undergrad classes tend to be lecture, lecture mixed with discussion, or lecture, discussion and "hands on" because they are content oriented. Grad classes at major universities tend to research-based or seminars.

I'm attaching a list of the WSU doctoral program requirements so you can see that in whatever format WSU courses took, the preliminary exams after PhD coursework involve developing questions in a "substantive areas" of specialization and QUESTIONS on the "methodology/statistics" aspects and then writing a synthesis paper in response to faculty questions. This is in format much like the program that I did, although I'm in a field that is more qualitative, theoretical, and historical than quantitative, analytics and statistical. This work requires understanding of the FIELD and its issues and methods of inquiry rather than the recollection of facts and procedures. It doesn't allow much leeway for new students to show off prior knowledge or opinions but rather developing the ability to analyze and synthesize within the field and subfield.

Agreed, that is why I stated the murderer did better in his Undergrad classes and struggled at WSU. His Bachelors was in Psychology and his Masters in Criminal Justice from DeSales.

Reading his thesis work for his Masters in CJ (Red dit Survery?) seemed well below standards IMO, it didn't impress me much. Certainly not enough to obtain paid for studies and a TA position for his Doctoral Program at WSU.

I believe the overwhelming glowing and supportive remarks from his Prof. Advisee K. Ramsland, who has a very influential reputation in her field of expertise, and his Prof. Mentor MB, who had only endorsed one other student during her 10 year tenure, is what allowed the murderer acceptance to WSU and a TA position.

Totally different academic structure and measures put him behind the 8 ball and in over his head. He could talk the talk, but couldn't walk the walk. That, combined with the critique of his Professor and behavioral complaints by students, put the murderer on notice.

JMO

 

[cottonweaver]

The Role of Sexual, Sadistic, and Misogynistic Fantasy in Mass and Serial Killing 38 Deviant Behavior 2017

DEVIANT BEHAVIOR2017, VOL. 38, NO. 7, 735-743 Routledgehttp://dx.doi.org/10.1080/01639625.2016.1197669 Taylor&FrancisGroupThe Role of Sexual, Sadistic, and Misogynistic Fantasy in Mass andSerial...

heinonline.org

'The Role of Sexual, Sadistic, and Misogynistic Fantasy in Mass and Serial Killing'

There's thousands of research papers on this topic but here's an example

One page from the paper





Imagining how Loser reacted when some of the academics at WSU covered this topic.....


PS Both Angenette Levy & Dr Brucato have the book which they believe to be the one which Loser underlined on pg 118.
Neither of them want to identify it just yet, they're waiting for it to be revealed in a document dump but....from their hints it sounds like TB. (Ward and Patterson book also had me thinking that it was Rogers but Ward - in subsequent interviews - has said there's no proof he was directly inspired by ER but that she believed there were commonalities between ER & BK and that his peers told her that they'd studied ER in class. That's not really controversial, lots of other bona fide criminologists have been saying there are some common features)

 

[PunishThenForgive]

PS Both Angenette Levy & Dr Brucato have the book which they believe to be the one which Loser underlined on pg 118.
Neither of them want to identify it just yet, they're waiting for it to be revealed in a document dump but....from their heavy hints it sounds like TB.

(snipped by me)

Doesn’t TB mean Ted Bundy? If so, which Ted Bundy book?

 

[cottonweaver]

What is the book? Doesn’t TB mean Ted Bundy?

They don't want to give book title. It's a book which they both already owned.
Levy said that she didn't want to.... potentially.... be a cause of misinformation online in case she was later proved wrong so neither will state unequivocally right now. Fair enough.


ETA

Just to add a TBC. I am inferring it's TB from comments they have made. Youtubers pls don't make vidz saying ' Levy stated' or 'Brucato bombshell!' etc cause they didn't

 

[PunishThenForgive]

They don't want to give book title. It's a book which they both already owned.
Levy said that she didn't want to potentially be a cause of misinformation online in case she was later proved wrong.

OK, but we can guess. Here are some Ted Bundy books that are supposedly popular in criminology programs:

• The Stranger Beside Me by Ann Rule
• Ted Bundy: Conversations with a Killer: The Death Row Interviews by Stephen G. Michaud and Hugh Aynesworth
• The Enigma of Ted Bundy: The Questions and Controversies Surrounding America's Most Infamous Serial Killer by Kevin M. Sullivan
• The Last Murder: The Investigation, Prosecution, and Execution of Ted Bundy by George R. Dekle Sr.
• Ted Bundy and The Unsolved Murder Epidemic: The Dark Figure of Crime by Matt DeLisi
• The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History, 2d Ed. by Kevin M. Sullivan

Unfortunately, I don’t have a single one of these books, so I can’t check page 118. I guess I’ll just wait for Kevin Fixler to let us know, as he promised during yesterday’s Idaho Statesman livestream.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I hope those conversations would be private, other than for the appropriate prison and LE officials. The parents deserve their privacy, IMO.

There is no expectation of privacy when receiving calls on a recorded prison/jail line as plainly stated by a recording before the call is accepted. We've heard some from Alex Murdaugh, Richard Allen, and Lori and Chad Vallow recently. Wasn't some of the Casey Anthony calls published way back when?

I feel for the murderer's parents, I truly do. I think they tried very hard to do the best they could. Sometimes evil cannot be explained.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

The media sure is getting a lot of mileage out of the murder victims! Panel of experts talking about prison, and what that is for convicted murderers in the USA. Are they hoping that people will gloat about Kohberger's future? Strange idea about entertainment today!

It was the same with Murdaugh, Vallow and Allen/Delphi trial in the aftermath. Now you hear an occasional peep in MSM. On to the next new horror story.

I think the same will be true of this murderer.

JMO

 

[cottonweaver]

Kohberger's capstone project focused on script theory, which was developed in 1994. It does not currently have value in criminology. Kohberger based his work on posting questions online.

Criminology: Script Theory (Kohberger's capstone project for Master degree)

"In 1994, Derek Cornish introduced the concept of crime scripts to the field of environmental criminology with a paper entitled ‘The procedural analysis of offending and its relevance for situational prevention’ (Cornish, 1994a).

This work had one clear objective: to provide academics and practitioners working in the field of crime prevention with a clear, innovative and applicable theoretical framework to the study of crime-commission processes. Drawing from cognitive psychology, Cornish retraced the origins of scripts and outlined its potential for better understanding crime-commission processes.

By applying scripts to crime, Cornish developed a procedural framework to identify the complete sequence of actions adopted prior to, during and following the commission of a particular crime and thereby to offer a fuller range of intervention points to disrupt crime commission. Because offenders can learn from their mistakes when committing crimes, Cornish also discussed how crime scripts can evolve when disrupted by obstacles that prevent their completion
...

Despite a recent increase of interest in the application of script analysis to various forms of crime, the full value of scripts has not been realized."

New developments in script analysis for situational crime prevention |

In 1994, Derek Cornish introduced the concept of crime scripts to the field of environmental criminology with a paper entitled ‘The procedural analysis of

www.taylorfrancis.com

Interesting, thanks

So ' It does not currently have value in criminology' but he chose it anyway ( or was recommended it)


speculation - At De Sales, he's already fixated on committing a future crime, doing this research would both give him useful, practical pointers, and avoiding mistakes as you have emphasized.

IMO he was getting thrills from it too. His research as p/orn or fantasy.

It just reminds me of the stuff hardened paedos often do when their online conversations are revealed by LE. They wallow in sharing detail of every stage, prelude through to abuse. They've wallowed in hearing how their peers identified victims, the grooming steps and tips & techniques.
( Although admittedly I don't recall ' how you felt ' being a big feature)

 

[girlhasnoname]

(Snipped by me)

Masking in social situations is a common human behavior, including among autistic individuals.

Contrary to stereotype, autistic individuals can lie (masking, after all, involves some deception):

Deceptive behaviour in autism: A scoping review

Also contrary to stereotype, most autistic individuals have plenty of affective/emotional empathy, though some may struggle with cognitive empathy. It is psychopaths who have no affective empathy.

Though rare, an individual can be both autistic and psychopathic:

The relationship between psychopathy and autism: a systematic review and narrative synthesis

IMO, incels who murder are likely to be both autistic and psychopathic. Such an individual might join an online forum with other individuals who hate women and are envious of romantically successful men, then their lack of affective empathy leads them to use violence to get even.

I imagine if an autistic individual had co-occurring psychopathy, they may be able to lie masterfully—with enough practice.

For what it’s worth, I think the murderer may simply be psychopathic and not be autistic, as Dr. Brocato implies.

I personally know many individuals with autistic traits, but none of these people have psychopathic traits—that I have witnessed, at least.

I also personally know only two individuals who I think are psychopathic. The first (a relative) shows no signs of autism and instead was often manic in his youth. The second (a former roommate) was socially awkward, but this awkwardness was due to his intensity, his need to control others, and his simmering anger that would suddenly erupt, appalling both co-workers and roommates. Like the murderer we discuss here, he was an excellent student, but unlike the murderer, he always had a girlfriend, in spite of his creepy vibe. (If a man is handsome enough, he usually has no problem finding a woman to put up with him.) Anyway, I periodically look up his name to see if he has moved away, or if he is in prison.

IMO

Yikes.

I thought this was interesting. Top Professionals with Psychopathic tendencies. Seems to be positions with control over people and attention seeking.

<snipped>

1. CEO
2. Lawyer
3. Media (Television/Radio)
4. Salesperson
5. Surgeon
6. Journalist
7. Police officer
8. Clergy person
9. Chef
10. Civil Servant

The Top 10 Jobs That Attract Psychopaths

Everyone I have ever worked with has, at some point, called another colleague or coworker "crazy." But does your job actually attract true psychopaths? In the book "The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success," Kevin Dutton explains that there are...

www.forbes.com

JMO

 

[Mountain_Kat]

In a case where the acoustics of the crime scene would have been vital at trial, how was this model supposed to provide a jury with valuable insight ?

It's just infuriating.