Please Read. The JBR forum is just a wee bit different than the rest.

[RiverRat]

And lest we forget, some of those guests busied themselves by cleaning kitchen counters and tables, thus cleaning away possible valuable evidence. Talk about contaminating (and cleaning up!) a crime scene!

Please read the posts above for clarification. It was one of the Victim Advocates brought in by the authorities - not a guest of the Ramseys.

 

[Old Bird]

WOW -- wish I'd read more on the JBR case before now! Lots of catching up to do. I have always thought the Ramey's at least knew more than they were telling...now I plan to read & form a more intelligent position so I can put my :twocents: worth in.

Thanks, Tricia -- I appreciate the opportunity to read & post here. There's no other place where I could do my catching up as well as here. Coming to WS is a priviledge.

OB

 

[Nuisanceposter]

What I'd like to know is which one of them called the friends over? Does anyone remember?

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif][size=-0]5:51 am[/size][/font] [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif][size=-0]Patsy called 911 to report the kidnapping of JonBenét, although the note said the child would be killed if the police were notified. Patsy failed to hang the phone up properly; Burke's voice can allegedly be heard in the background of an enhanced version of the taped call, which would contradict the statements of all three Ramseys that Burke was not awake at that time.[/size][/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif][size=-0]5:52 am[/size][/font] [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif][size=-0]The first police officers, Richard French and Karl Veitch "responded" to the call, according to the affidavit accompanying the 12/26 search warrant. It is not clear if this is when they were dispatched or when they actually arrived at the home. It seems more likely that they actually arrived some minutes later.* They were shown the ransom note and told by John Ramsey that the doors and windows had been secured the night before. French is the officer who, in Vanity Fair, mentioned John pacing while Patsy watched behind splayed fingers. Police reportedly said Patsy was wearing fresh makeup and the clothes she had worn to dinner the night before.[/size][/font] [size=-1][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]*[/font][/size][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] According to Lawrence Schiller in "Perfect Murder Perfect Town", the first police arrived at 5:59 am[/size][/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif][size=-0]5:55 am - 6:00 am[/size][/font] [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif][size=-0]According to Vanity Fair, Fleet said John Ramsey called friends Fleet and Priscilla White to come over immediately, and likely called John and friends Barbara Fernie at that time as well.
According to Schiller, Patsy called the Whites at 6:00am and spoke with Priscilla. By the time the Whites reached the Ramsey home, the police and John Fernie were already there.[/size][/font]

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer/primer4_time.html

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I believe the flight arragements he made were to have his two older children picked up and brought to Denver.

He was trying to take Patsy and Burke and leave Boulder for Atlanta less than half an hour after JonBenet was found. Sergeant Mason overhead John and told him to cancel that.

Around 1:00 p.m., Linda Arndt asked Fleet White, a friend of the Ramseys, to take John and search the house for "anything unusual." At approximately 1:30 p.m., John Ramsey and his friend Fleet White discover JonBenét's body in the basement.

John Ramsey removes the tape from her mouth and carries her upstairs in outstretched arms, where he lay her on the floor at the top of the stairs and requests a blanket from the couch to cover her. Patsy flings herself onto JonBenét's body and shouts "help me Jesus!". Linda Arndt shortly thereafter, moves JonBenét's body over near the Christmas tree and places a Colorado Avalanche's sweatshirt over her.

Twenty minutes later, John is overheard placing a phone call to his pilot to ready the plane to head for Atlanta. Police instructed them not to leave town, so they began staying at a friend's home in Boulder.


http://zyberzoom.com/JBRTimeline.htmlRamsey was soon told to cancel that flight, but police would consider the action suspicious. Why would a father whose child had just been murdered be readying an airplane to get out of town? It made no sense."

 

[cappuccina]

....or 5 behaviors which LE and forensic folks thought were out of the ordinary for parents in their situation...that is, 5 behaviors that raised "red flags"... (Sorry I didn't answer this sooner....we've been running all weekend.).

1. The Ramseys not only refused to cooperate with the police from the outset, but were rude and "offputting" to police and LE...Most parents of missing and/or murdered children if they had nothing to do with the crime, bend over backwards to coopreate with police and LE, to get themselves cleared ASAP so the investigation can immediately go forward...

2. At the time JonBenet's body was brought up from the basement, Patsy was carrying on, and covered her face with her hands. Investigators and LE noticed her very deliberately peeking through her fingers several times while things were unfolding...

3. They used journalists as a very noticeable conduit to the public while shunning LE...No problem for them to go on talk shows, etc., but they wouldn't even get themselves cleared with LE.

4. There were many glaring inconsistencies in their statements. Now I realize that parents under stress related to the death of a child might not remember certain details of things, etc. However, investigators and other LE said the pattern here was not of distraught parents who were forgetting things in their grief, but rather incredible inconsistencies and gaps in their stories. Here are some areas with serious inconsistences. What time did JBR go to be on 12/25? Was she asleep or awake when they came back from the White's? What did she wear to their X-Mas party? Did she sleep on those clothes, or did they change her? Did she awake in the night? Did she eat pinapple from the bowl? Who ate pinapple from the bowl? What time did Patsy go to bed (if at all)? Did Patsy change her clothes after coming home form the White's or did she stay up all noight in her party clothes? Was Burke asleep through the night of 12/25? If not, what awakened him? Did John take melatonin that night...if so how much? The list of inconsistencies/holes goes on and on.

Now, one thing I will tell you...parents I know personally who have lost their child whether ibecause of illness, murder or what have you...desperately cling to the details surrounding their last days with their child...They will be able to tell you through their grief what that child was wearing, eating, doing, etc., down to the smallest detail. But, they tend to forget information about themselves...

With the Ramseys, it was the exact opposite....They couldn't tell you anything about JonBenet with any precise detail, but gave precise detail about stuff that didn't matter...


5. The lack of concern for missing/murdered, or, for that matter anyone's childen that I enumerated above.

6. Their amazing nastiness towards anyone who was getting close to the truth...not only LE, but former close friends of theirs, the White's, for example...I think that Fleet White had a "come to Jesus" talk with JR somewhere in that basement, for example...

Sorry for rambling here, I'm just writing this stuff down while I am thinking of it... (pardon the typos too...)

 

[wenchie]

Too bad they didn't focus on Patsy a little bit and ask her to show them the nightgown or pj's she had worn the night before in the laundry hamper.

Ooops! They couldn't even do that. They had one of their friends greet LE when they went to talk to the Ramsey's, and were informed that they had legal representation and could not be talking to LE any more.

 

[stonewall]

I
I got into the forum business because of the Ramsey case. I too believe it was an inside job.

I have seen first hand what the Ramsy's lies have done to innocent people.

The Ramseys make me sick. And yes, one or both killed JonBenet.

None of us know who killed JonBenet except the murderer. Sounds to me like alot of people have gotten carried away with this case, not just John Karr.

 

[cheko1]

Tricia,

I also signed up at Forums for Justice.......
am waiting to get an email...also!

I think Tricia is the most sincere person & very fair.
She told you'se your entitled to your own opinion. What the heck else ya's want?:waitasec: She don't agree with you'se / so what????

 

[kazzbar]

None of us know who killed JonBenet except the murderer. Sounds to me like alot of people have gotten carried away with this case, not just John Karr.

I cannot argue with you. What you are saying is a very valid point !

 

[dottierainbow]

Exactly.
Amy

 

[close_enough]

Too bad they didn't focus on Patsy a little bit and ask her to show them the nightgown or pj's she had worn the night before in the laundry hamper.

Ooops! They couldn't even do that. They had one of their friends greet LE when they went to talk to the Ramsey's, and were informed that they had legal representation and could not be talking to LE any more.

heck, i read somewhere that it took a little over a year before the R's even turned their own clothing over to LE...

 

[itsreenw]

Just to change speed a little bit, I found this kind of interesting:


BANGKOK, Thailand — The suspect in the murder of American child beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey was treated at a Bangkok clinic specializing in sex-change operations and cosmetic surgery, clinic officials said Sunday.
A doctor at the Pratunam Polyclinic confirmed that he had treated the suspect, 41-year-old former schoolteacher John Mark Karr.

"He was one of my patients," said Dr. Thep Vechwijit, who declined to provide details of the treatment.

A staffer at the clinic, who demanded anonymity since she was not authorized to make statements to the media, said Karr had consulted the doctor about a sex-change operation.

This could not be confirmed by other sources.

 

[Amster]

Very interesting......Patsy immediately calls Fleet and Prisilla to come over. .....and then she puts them on her suspects list! Very clever of Patsy. And such a swell friend...

 

[Amity]

I smoke (yea, yea, I know.... baaaad Amity) and there is no way on this earth I would go into someone's home where I have been graciously invited and light up. It's their home and I am a guest in that home and treat the host/hostess and their home with respect and not assume something is OK just because I haven't been told differently.

Once I'm told or given a guideline or, for lack of a better word, 'rules', then I follow them because I want to be invited back.

Websleuths is someone's Home, albeit a home/site on the www.
I am a guest in this 'Home' and I certainly want to make sure my visit here is respectful to the hostess and her other guests. Hey, I wanna be able to drop in anytime I'm in the neighborhood.

Ok, carry on.

 

[julianne]

heck, i read somewhere that it took a little over a year before the R's even turned their own clothing over to LE...

Clarification:
It took LE a little over a year to REQUEST the clothing from the Ramseys. It's not like LE requested right away and the Ramseys refused.

 

[julianne]

....or 5 behaviors which LE and forensic folks thought were out of the ordinary for parents in their situation...that is, 5 behaviors that raised "red flags"... (Sorry I didn't answer this sooner....we've been running all weekend.).

1. The Ramseys not only refused to cooperate with the police from the outset, but were rude and "offputting" to police and LE...Most parents of missing and/or murdered children if they had nothing to do with the crime, bend over backwards to coopreate with police and LE, to get themselves cleared ASAP so the investigation can immediately go forward...
Nothing in any of the documents I have seen state that the Ramseys were either rude or offputting to LE. I have never seen any interview with any LE directly involved in the case that states this. If I am wrong, please provide me with something concrete (link to a document, or name of LE) that backs that statement up. Without that, it's just someone's conclusion or rumor.

2. At the time JonBenet's body was brought up from the basement, Patsy was carrying on, and covered her face with her hands. Investigators and LE noticed her very deliberately peeking through her fingers several times while things were unfolding...
"Carrying on" and covering her face with her hands is not a behavior that is out of the ordinary, nor does it exude guilt. Deliberately peeking through her fingers several times....hmmm, that may raise a red flag. Again, link me the document that states this. If it truly happened, it would have to be documented, no?

3. They used journalists as a very noticeable conduit to the public while shunning LE...No problem for them to go on talk shows, etc., but they wouldn't even get themselves cleared with LE.
I keep hearing how they shunned LE, and basically refused to cooperate with them. I have seen interviews with both LE AND the Ramseys where BOTH of them have stated that they HAVE cooperated. I know that at some point their lawyer gave LE "guidelines", such as wanting to be present during questioning, but that was their lawyers decision. I know people think that because they sought legal counsel that it proves their guilt---but, presuming they are innocent, obtaining a lawyer is the smart thing to do when you are under suspicion for murder. LE on the whole are law-abiding people who want the truth, but we all know there are horror stories of unscrupulous LE who have purposely planted evidence in cases, etc. IF they did continually shun LE and REFUSE to cooperate, it's not like there is no recourse for LE. They can MAKE you cooperate, lol!

4. There were many glaring inconsistencies in their statements. Now I realize that parents under stress related to the death of a child might not remember certain details of things, etc. However, investigators and other LE said the pattern here was not of distraught parents who were forgetting things in their grief, but rather incredible inconsistencies and gaps in their stories. Here are some areas with serious inconsistences. What time did JBR go to be on 12/25? Was she asleep or awake when they came back from the White's? What did she wear to their X-Mas party? Did she sleep on those clothes, or did they change her? Did she awake in the night? Did she eat pinapple from the bowl? Who ate pinapple from the bowl? What time did Patsy go to bed (if at all)? Did Patsy change her clothes after coming home form the White's or did she stay up all noight in her party clothes? Was Burke asleep through the night of 12/25? If not, what awakened him? Did John take melatonin that night...if so how much? The list of inconsistencies/holes goes on and on.
RE: pineapple--I thought the Ramseys both consistently stated that they had no idea where the pineapple came into the picture that night. Where is the inconsistency in that? Furthermore, you state there are many glaring inconsistencies, but all I see are questions, I don't see what you term as glaring inconsistencies, so that's undebateable.

Now, one thing I will tell you...parents I know personally who have lost their child whether ibecause of illness, murder or what have you...desperately cling to the details surrounding their last days with their child...They will be able to tell you through their grief what that child was wearing, eating, doing, etc., down to the smallest detail. But, they tend to forget information about themselves...

With the Ramseys, it was the exact opposite....They couldn't tell you anything about JonBenet with any precise detail, but gave precise detail about stuff that didn't matter...
Like what? And if it didn't matter, why would LE question them about it? I'm sure if LE was asking, it DID matter.


5. The lack of concern for missing/murdered, or, for that matter anyone's childen that I enumerated above.
Who says they have lack of concern for anyones children???

6. Their amazing nastiness towards anyone who was getting close to the truth...not only LE, but former close friends of theirs, the White's, for example...I think that Fleet White had a "come to Jesus" talk with JR somewhere in that basement, for example...
Don't know about the "come to Jesus" talk....not even sure what that means?? What "amazing nastiness"?? Simply typing it doesn't make it so....

Sorry for rambling here, I'm just writing this stuff down while I am thinking of it... (pardon the typos too...)

No, I appreciate your rambling, lol I am a fellow rambler. And please don't think I am being argumentative, I am soooo not. I just think that so many of the reasons that people think they are guilty are COMPLETELY DEBATEABLE, and that is one reason why they were never charged. Tried as they might, over a span of 10 years, hundreds of LE and 2 DA's could never conclusively prove their guilt. I keep hearing how all these LE, forensic folks, detectives know their guilty....but I also see many interviews on TV with LE, forensic folks & detectives who adamantly state that is not so.

One thing is sure...I don't have the answers, you don't have the answers, and nobody on this forum has the answers. But we all sure do a damn good job debating it!! Let's hear it for us armchair detectives!!!! :blowkiss:

 

[Love_Mama]

Tricia, I want to thank you sooooooooooooooooooo much for all the information you've made available here. I really got ton's of information that I'd missed by not reading or posting on the JBR Thread.
You are a sweetheart, a doll, and extremely bright! I'm so happy you're here. Love your website too........Some great posters there!

xxxxxxxxxoooooooo
Mama Louise

 

[Peter Hamilton]

Amster--lol--well said--with friends like Patsy,who needs enemies?

 

[Straitfan]

Excellent post, MistyM!!!!:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Guess cause, if one of my chidlren were possibly missing/murdered whatever, I would not care what the the results were, bottom line!!!! Lock me up, whatever they wanted/needed to do would be OK with me! (If you are scared, hey there has to be a reason!) Call me guilty if you need too.. if that is what it took to find the the answer then so be it!!. If you have a child, it really doesnt matter what is done to you, cause it cannot be worse than what you are dealing with anyway..

 

[Straitfan]

BTW, Juliane, some people have COMMON Sense, which gives them the ability to view things/situations thru a sensable means, ie, Mr Klauss....No fear! Hey, if you have something to hide, you fear things in life.. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, lie dector, whatever it may be.. Why do you think these other parents are not presumed guility??? Think there may be a reason, myself.