Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[SMK]

ok I found it - Beth Thomas--child of rage

Child of Rage - The Documentary (Part 1) - YouTube

I recall this story: The little girl had been terribly abused, and was sexually precocious and also murderous. She killed animals and tortured her brother.

But the adoptive parents were able to get her help, thank God. And to their credit. Many parents are not up to the job, and deserve a lot of help.....

 

[Gecko100]

Yes, but I'd also like to hear him say in addition to "it's up to the parents" that it's also up to the child's village--as in, "it takes a village to raise a child." I don't think this sentiment is very popular in America or Canada, but, one has to consider that the nuclear family itself can be a little patch of (very private) garden grown wild with weeds of disorder and illness. Parents have serious responsibilities, no doubt, but if they don't have skills and energy and good health, full blame for a child's problems and behaviour is misplaced. No-one is an island, and neither is a family.

Oh gosh yes, it's every adult's responsibility to protect children, not just the state and parents. Many professions in my country are legally mandated to report child abuse, I'm not too sure what happens in the US or Canada.

 

[SMK]

Oh gosh yes, it's every adult's responsibility to protect children, not just the state and parents. Many professions in my country are legally mandated to report child abuse, I'm not too sure what happens in the US or Canada.

In the US they are also legally mandated. But too much slips through the cracks, and there is often not the right kind of help available to those without resources.

 

[Gecko100]

ok I found it - Beth Thomas--child of rage

Child of Rage - The Documentary (Part 1) - YouTube

Oh help, - the look of utter pain on that child's face...Sorry, can't look at the documentary because of work flashbacks, but I can imagine it. I could never watch it my heart might stop.

 

[SMK]

Oh help, - the look of utter pain on that child's face...Sorry, can't look at the documentary because of work flashbacks, but I can imagine it. I could never watch it my heart might stop.

I understand, yes: It is terribly upsetting to watch.

 

[Emmi]

You took the words right out of my mouth! I was just thinking this: Suppose the parents are not up to this, psychologically, financially, socially? Shouldn't society have an obligation to guide such children???

Yes, because the child is a part of society, and will affect it, for better or for worse. I believe, too, that there is a particularly heavy obligation when the family in question has been subject to oppression and marginalization. Suffering, pain, addiction and anger related to oppression must be addressed.

There's a situation in Canada, for example, where Aboriginal Peoples are over-represented in prisons and in the child welfare and foster-care systems. The legacy of extreme and systemic abuse by the government is felt to this day. Along with racial and cultural genocide there was, in that not-so-distant past, and almost as if by design, spiritual and sexual abuse in residential schools. Not to mention the everyday racist contempt that that is alive and well in Canada. Well, how do parents and children fare with the odds so stacked against them? Too often, very badly. Yes, the community beyond the family DOES have an obligation.

 

[SMK]

Yes, because the child is a part of society, and will affect it, for better or for worse. I believe, too, that there is a particularly heavy obligation when the family in question has been subject to oppression and marginalization. Suffering, pain, addiction and anger related to oppression must be addressed.

There's a situation in Canada, for example, where Aboriginal Peoples are over-represented in prisons and in the child welfare and foster-care systems. The legacy of extreme and systemic abuse by the government is felt to this day. Along with racial and cultural genocide there was, in that not-so-distant past, and almost as if by design, spiritual and sexual abuse in residential schools. Not to mention the everyday racist contempt that that is alive and well in Canada. Well, how do parents and children fare with the odds so stacked against them? Too often, very badly. Yes, the community beyond the family DOES have an obligation.

Yes, agreed, and in the US these things hold as well for African-American and Latino people, among others.

To me, all very relevant to the Arias case but perhaps to some it is way off the mark. Different people view things in different contexts: I cannot help but view crime as belonging within a broad spectrum of etiology: I am not of the mind-set to individualize it. But it seems to be putting some people off, to speak from this purview.

 

[Emmi]

Oh help, - the look of utter pain on that child's face...Sorry, can't look at the documentary because of work flashbacks, but I can imagine it. I could never watch it my heart might stop.

So sorry, Gecko. Take care of your heart. It's a good one!

 

[human]

Yes, but I'd also like to hear him say in addition to "it's up to the parents" that it's also up to the child's village--as in, "it takes a village to raise a child." I don't think this sentiment is very popular in America or Canada, but, one has to consider that the nuclear family itself can be a little patch of (very private) garden grown wild with weeds of disorder and illness. Parents have serious responsibilities, no doubt, but if they don't have skills and energy and good health, full blame for a child's problems and behaviour is misplaced. No-one is an island, and neither is a family.

So true. Here in the US we claim to love children, but we do not provide after school activities, adequate child care; we vilify poor single mothers if they do not work , but will not provide funds for care. Where I live, they can get funds to go to school for a short while. They can get a job then with terrible hours and no transportation to get to the job. Finding overnight care is almost impossible

Some want to get mental health care for a child, but cannot because there is no way to get the child to the clinic. No transportation and no time off from work.

I know I talk about parental responsibility. I do not mean the material things, but rather the parents own shortcomings as far as loving a child.

A poor parent can love a child but not be able to provide for healthcare and other things that impact well being.

A rich parent may provide material goods, but no love.

I know people do not want to hear personal experiences, but to me this is so important.

I worked with poor families who were concerned about their abilities to provide the overabundance of material goods America provides .

We talked about childhood memories. What everyone remembers is the time parents spent with the child. Not material goods.

This is my passion. I had a good life and my children and grandchildren have a good life so far.

I want everyone to have a good life.

And we can help that to happen for sure!

 

[Gecko100]

Yes, because the child is a part of society, and will affect it, for better or for worse. I believe, too, that there is a particularly heavy obligation when the family in question has been subject to oppression and marginalization. Suffering, pain, addiction and anger related to oppression must be addressed.

There's a situation in Canada, for example, where Aboriginal Peoples are over-represented in prisons and in the child welfare and foster-care systems. The legacy of extreme and systemic abuse by the government is felt to this day. Along with racial and cultural genocide there was, in that not-so-distant past, and almost as if by design, spiritual and sexual abuse in residential schools. Not to mention the everyday racist contempt that that is alive and well in Canada. Well, how do parents and children fare with the odds so stacked against them? Too often, very badly. Yes, the community beyond the family DOES have an obligation.

It's exactly the same as many colonised countries, including mine sigh...

 

[Gecko100]

A lot of people adopted children from Romanian/Russian orphanages, had no idea what they were in for, major re-active attachment disorders, and some adopters gave those children up - again.
Has anyone seen the UK series 7UP with Michael Apted?
I'm pretty sure they did different countries too.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Yes: She killed two children but they refused to view her in barbaric light as a "bad seed":

Instead, they blamed her mother, got her therapy, and she is now a very dedicated mother.

Would NEVER happen in the U.S. !!!

So at what age is a human being responsible for their own choices in life?
Where exactly is the line? What exactly is the treatment protocol that will guarantee a positive outcome? who decides they are safely able to reenter society? When exactly does the line get crossed on heinous, cruel, calculated, premeditated and thoroughly enjoyed by the perpetrator ?

If ya ask me,,,,it happens all too often in the USA.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[human]

Yes, because the child is a part of society, and will affect it, for better or for worse. I believe, too, that there is a particularly heavy obligation when the family in question has been subject to oppression and marginalization. Suffering, pain, addiction and anger related to oppression must be addressed.

There's a situation in Canada, for example, where Aboriginal Peoples are over-represented in prisons and in the child welfare and foster-care systems. The legacy of extreme and systemic abuse by the government is felt to this day. Along with racial and cultural genocide there was, in that not-so-distant past, and almost as if by design, spiritual and sexual abuse in residential schools. Not to mention the everyday racist contempt that that is alive and well in Canada. Well, how do parents and children fare with the odds so stacked against them? Too often, very badly. Yes, the community beyond the family DOES have an obligation.

Idle NO More.

USA, Canada, Australia.

Any other place?

 

[Linda7NJ]

So true. Here in the US we claim to love children, but we do not provide after school activities, adequate child care; we vilify poor single mothers if they do not work , but will not provide funds for care. Where I live, they can get funds to go to school for a short while. They can get a job then with terrible hours and no transportation to get to the job. Finding overnight care is almost impossible

Some want to get mental health care for a child, but cannot because there is no way to get the child to the clinic. No transportation and no time off from work.

I know I talk about parental responsibility. I do not mean the material things, but rather the parents own shortcomings as far as loving a child.

A poor parent can love a child but not be able to provide for healthcare and other things that impact well being.

A rich parent may provide material goods, but no love.

I know people do not want to hear personal experiences, but to me this is so important.

I worked with poor families who were concerned about their abilities to provide the overabundance of material goods America provides .

We talked about childhood memories. What everyone remembers is the time parents spent with the child. Not material goods.

This is my passion. I had a good life and my children and grandchildren have a good life so far.

I want everyone to have a good life.

And we can help that to happen for sure!

Agreed.
Unless society starts testing and licensing those that are qualified to reproduce and parent the problem will never be solved.
That will never happen. so it truly is an exercise in futility. Saving them all will never be reality. We each can only do what we can, report when we witness, perhaps become foster or adoptive parents, mentor, offer help when we see its needed and do our very best to instill compassion and empathy and a sense of duty in our children.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Emmi]

A lot of people adopted children from Romanian/Russian orphanages, had no idea what they were in for, major re-active attachment disorders, and some adopters gave those children up - again.
Has anyone seen the UK series 7UP with Michael Apted?
I'm pretty sure they did different countries too.

Yes! I've seen it. Aren't we due for another instalment soon?

I watched almost the entire film--that is, many, many hours of the Up Series episodes--over the course of ONE day. What a strange, compelling, almost unreal--but enriching--experience that was!

 

[Linda7NJ]

A lot of people adopted children from Romanian/Russian orphanages, had no idea what they were in for, major re-active attachment disorders, and some adopters gave those children up - again.
Has anyone seen the UK series 7UP with Michael Apted?
I'm pretty sure they did different countries too.

The foster care system as it stands today here also causes RAD and an array of attachment issues. It's not uncommon to run into children who have been bounced around way too many times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SMK]

So at what age is a human being responsible for their own choices in life?
Where exactly is the line? What exactly is the treatment protocol that will guarantee a positive outcome? who decides they are safely able to reenter society? When exactly does the line get crossed on heinous, cruel, calculated, premeditated and thoroughly enjoyed by the perpetrator ?

If ya ask me,,,,it happens all too often in the USA.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I cannot answer those questions with any exactness, but there should be studies.

I would say in the case of Mary Bell and the Alabama child, both were abused under age 3, and the crimes were committed at ages 6 and 10. It is clear the responsibility lied with adults.

The treatment worked in both cases.

 

[SMK]

The foster care system as it stands today here also causes RAD and an array of attachment issues. It's not uncommon to run into children who have been bounced around way too many times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Absolutely true. I often think foster care is not the answer. In most cases, treating the parents along with the child would be. IMO only. I don't know how feasible this would be.

 

[SMK]

Agreed.
Unless society starts testing and licensing those that are qualified to reproduce and parent the problem will never be solved.
That will never happen. so it truly is an exercise in futility. Saving them all will never be reality. We each can only do what we can, report when we witness, perhaps become foster or adoptive parents, mentor, offer help when we see its needed and do our very best to instill compassion and empathy and a sense of duty in our children.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're probably right: It is a basic instinct to reproduce, and one cannot imagine any democracy saying only the most well-adjusted, well off, educated and enlightened may reproduce. I do think if the general culture were kinder and more healthy, this might counter-balance where certain situations were not receiving help. But no, every child a wanted, loved, understood, and nurtured child sadly is not possible in every case.

 

[Gecko100]

Yes! I've seen it. Aren't we due for another instalment soon?

I watched almost the entire film--that is, many, many hours of the Up Series episodes--over the course of ONE day. What a strange, compelling, almost unreal--but enriching--experience that was!

Yes I think we are just about due for another one, they are probably grandparents by now. It feels like we got to know them very personally! What a brilliant series.