Pontiac: The odor, sealing off & processing the car #2

[JBean]

Also, I'm not sure that LE had reason or a warrant to take the car that first evening ... IIRC they took the car AFTER the cadaver dogs hit on it ... I think when OSCO went to the Anthonys that first night, they spoke with KC inside the home then they took her to show them where she dropped Caylee off ... I'm not sure they even went in the garage ... I remember wondering why the responding officers didn't know about the full content of the 911 call and Cindy's comment about a dead body in the trunk ...

Maybe someone here can shed some light on this for me ... it never made sense to me the way that first night was handled but maybe it was less about LE oversight and more about having legal cause for taking the car and the contents ????

No warrant required, GA offered the car voluntarily to aid in the investigation to find his granddaughter. YM was pretty specific about that at the bond hearing. George handed the car over, as well as, tell the lead investigator ,when he first saw him, that the car smelled like a dead body was back there.

here is everything you need to know and more!

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93000"]Events Post-911 Calls 7/15 to Arrest 7/16 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]



[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92537"]Pontiac:the odor- Sealing off and processing the car #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


ETA: probably any additional discussion on this area of potential obstruction should go to those threads. there are plenty of other instances for discussion here and we are getting too far afield. thanks.

 

[Aedrys]

Well, it's like someone said earlier, they wanted to give a pretty, middle class, white girl the benefit of the doubt before assuming that Caylee was dead. I'm sure had they grabbed the car first, we'd hear complaints about how they didn't give Casey a chance to tell her side of the story and just zeroed in on her from the getgo, and how they assumed Caylee was dead way before a body was ever found or death was ever proven. The LE can't win no matter what they do. Someone is always going to be critical of their methods.

Yes, I do agree they dropped the ball on the car, but I didn't see the A's dragging them over to it and telling them flat out to look in it. They may have told them about the smell and offered the car, but if they really wanted LE to look into it, they would have done more than that. Instead, they latched on to Caylee being missing, and so LE did the same until they caught on to Casey's lies. There was so much information going around that they had to decide what the priority was, and that priority became recovering a kidnapped live child instead of looking for a dead one. Yes, they should have secured it the second they heard about a smell, but they didn't, and there's no going back and changing that.

Honestly, I don't think that will have much effect on the trial anyway except to make Casey look worse because the A's had time to try and clean the car. There's so much evidence, Casey will go down anyway, and then afterwards, The A's will get theirs for obstructing the investigation.

 

[Nore]

Please don't shoot me for what I am about to write.

In my opinion KC is a pig as far as cleaning up after herself and I would bet both of my legs that that car was a sty. I still have a feeling that CA, GA or both of them threw away a lot of stuff we will never know about.
I have to wonder how differently all of this would have played out if it had not been for the interference and total dishonesty of CA, GA and LA.
How so so sad for Caylee.

---------------------------
Exactly. I believe CA also removed any fingerprints from the car,not sure they even found kc's or Caylees.Bittersweet memories of SP.. I will go look it up.

 

[Cat13067]

if you would like to know how it actually went down, it is all linked and documented in the sealing of the pontiac thread.

What's your point? I too have read over the 12,000 pieces of information that has been released to the public. As I said, the car was going to be impounded by LE, but the immediate concern was to go to the source "KC" so Caylee could be found. The results from the inspection of the car would not have changed if LE took it the minute they arrived on the scene or 16 hours later the Anthony's already tampered with the car evidence. Finding Caylee was the priority. JMO

 

[JBean]

What's your point? I too have read over the 12,000 pieces of information that has been released to the public. As I said, the car was going to be impounded by LE, but the immediate concern was to go to the source "KC" so Caylee could be found. The results from the inspection of the car would not have changed if LE took it the minute they arrived on the scene or 16 hours later the Anthony's already tampered with the car evidence. Finding Caylee was the priority. JMO

My point was only that the accurate information as to what happened with regards to the car that night and day are contained in the threads i referenced. I know you have read a lot of information and I admire your hard work. But those threads will answer any questions you may have about the car. Take a look at them if you get a chance. There is a lot of good teamwork and sleuthing done in them.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Well, it's like someone said earlier, they wanted to give a pretty, middle class, white girl the benefit of the doubt before assuming that Caylee was dead. I'm sure had they grabbed the car first, we'd hear complaints about how they didn't give Casey a chance to tell her side of the story and just zeroed in on her from the getgo, and how they assumed Caylee was dead way before a body was ever found or death was ever proven. The LE can't win no matter what they do. Someone is always going to be critical of their methods.

Yes, I do agree they dropped the ball on the car, but I didn't see the A's dragging them over to it and telling them flat out to look in it. They may have told them about the smell and offered the car, but if they really wanted LE to look into it, they would have done more than that. Instead, they latched on to Caylee being missing, and so LE did the same until they caught on to Casey's lies. There was so much information going around that they had to decide what the priority was, and that priority became recovering a kidnapped live child instead of looking for a dead one. Yes, they should have secured it the second they heard about a smell, but they didn't, and there's no going back and changing that.

Honestly, I don't think that will have much effect on the trial anyway except to make Casey look worse because the A's had time to try and clean the car. There's so much evidence, Casey will go down anyway, and then afterwards, The A's will get theirs for obstructing the investigation.

The good thing is that despite all their best efforts to clean up Casey's car, it still smelled of human decomposition months later.

 

[The World According]

Bringing my post over here from the work bag/purse thread as it has the information from Lee in his interview about the smell in the garage of the Anthony home.




Lee Interview July 29, 2008

pages 47 and 48

LA: Casey had uhm, uh, uh, advised me on the 15th while I was waiting to fill out my statement before I could go to Tony's house to pick up Casey's stuff. Uhm, I was in the garage because they had seperated my folks from my sister. I sat in the garage with my sister.

EE: With the car right there?

LA: With the car right there. And it was atrocious.

EE: Uh-hum

LA: Uhm, and I couldn't be in there any more for a minute or two and I had to keep going back inside because the smell was so bad.

http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/0923/17540065.pdf

I am thinking that he talks more about it and in more detail in another interview too. However, it is late and I can't take anymore of his childish laughter and uhms.

Further in that interview with Lee, the July 29, 2008 one, on page 50 Lee gets into the "stakeouts" that Casey claimed to have done on her own. It is interesting to me that Lee admits he does not believe her but he does seem to forget that Casey had no problem sitting in the garage with the car when Lee himself had to leave because of the smell.


Lee Interview July29, 2008 Page 50

EE: The thing you questioned though where you say you didn't believe her was she said she actually did little stakeout in the car?

LA: Exactly. Casey described it when the, when she went back to get Caylee, when Caylee wasn't there, that nobody was there, that she did, she stayed at, she stayed there in the car, at, and lie as, as a stakeout to see if they were going to come back. And she described it as not just that night or not just one day, but as a few days that she did that. Uhm, and I immediately questioned that to say okay, number one, you're saying that you were driving your daughter, you were driving Caylee around in this car, even to the babysitter's house, with this atrocious smell. You know.....

EE: Right.

LA: .....I don't believe that she would do that. That she would put Caylee through that and she'd put herself through that. And number two, by her saying that she was doing a stakeout in that car for what I would think a stakeout would be at least hours, I couldn't stand it for two minutes and I'm standing on the outside of the car. I couldn't imagine me sitting in the car and smelling it.

http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/0923/17540065.pdf

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap

From her very own brother........wow! That is very, VERY compelling, and I do believe that Lee will tell the truth again on the stand. It wont matter if the police sealed the car at hour two or 122 when the jury hears this.

Of course we wish the car had been taken to the station;
Lee would not have been allowed to go to Tony's to retrieve Casey's stuff, or even talk to the boys for that matter;
Mom would not have been permitted to go through Casey's things once he arrived back home with them;
Certainly that all of the family would be separated , at all times, especially Lee and Casey;
We wish enough officers were there immediately to ensure that Casey was not unattended by an officer, at all.....

It is my understanding that when the first officer was sent there, he originally got a call to a home to take a report that a daughter had stolen a vehicle ....it had been returned, but the parents wanted to report it and have daughter arrested anyway. I don't imagine the officers were rushing over there for such a matter. Then when Cindy called to say her grand-daughter was missing , she did not say kidnapped by some bad guy, she said they knew who took her, her babysitter. It is important to remember that little detail. At that point is when the detectives for missing persons were called, this is many hours after Cindy and George got that car, and knew or should have known to report that car smell to police. THEY DID NOT. The responding officers have a different level of training than the detectives...so a lot of what went on under their watch perhaps would not have, had the call been called in to missing person detectives from the get go. SO LET'S BE CLEAR.....MOM AND POP CAUSED A LONG DELAY and CASEY'S REPEATED LIES FOR HOURS TO HER MOM CAUSED THAT DELAY TO BE PROTRACTED.

Of course we all believe that we would have called the police from the TOW YARD!!!!!! What time of day were they there? Thank you.

I vaguely remember that one of the responding officers was a young lady that knew Lee from high school. In a small community this is bound to happen. I do not know how experienced the responding officers were.
I remember at the bond hearing Baez poking Yuri for what took him so long to get there that night. He arrived in the wee hours of the morning and on no sleep at all....took Casey's statement and then drove her around to places the other officer had already driven her, literally door to door in some cases...for hours. SO LET'S BE CLEAR ON THAT TOO. Casey took them on a wild goose chase....all of them...all the way to the end of the hall at Universal. To say she wasted their time would be putting it politely.

Is this a teaching opportunity for the police department? Of course. Were mistakes made? Yes, clearly. Is a lot of the confusion, delay, circus because of CASEY and the parents failure to report the truth? Absolutely, yes. These things are not mutually exclusive. If Baez has one of the officers or detectives on the stand and asks if they had it to do over again, the entire event, would they do things differently...they would all answer a resounding yes, of course.

That is a far cry from cleaning, altering a car that you believe smells like a dead body and purposely giving a federal officer the wrong hair brush and or changing your testimony.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FarxXTSNh6I[/ame]
The parents actions and changing stories are going to be very , VERY strong indications to the jury that they were trying to cover up for their daughter. THAT IS GOING TO BE VERY COMPELLING. If her parents felt they needed to do that...the inference the jury will draw is pretty obvious and it is going to seal her fate. There are no two ways about it. Lee's testimony will nail the coffin shut. The prosecution is going to open with with 31 days, the smell in that car and duct tape, three pieces, blocking Caylee's airways. The prosecution is going to close with 31 days, the smell in that car and duct tape, three pieces, blocking Caylee's airways. There will be parents on the jury and Joy will not be one of them.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuuTH7GxFyk[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiJRztkqnQM[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeLdTCOF2lM[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=659JE9JrkfI[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgfDIjJoIX0[/ame]

If you have never seen the bond hearing, or it has been a long while since you did...you must watch this. It brings it back home in a hurry. The jury is going to throw the book at her.
PS: Note the judge has ONE question:
Judge to Yuri: Regarding the cadaver dogs at the residence...did they alert?
Yuri: Yes.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt2v6RfG9WI[/ame]

 

[MissJames]

GA reported it to Yuri Melich immediately upon his arrival at the Anthony's. he told Yuri that it smelled like something dead was in the back of the car and that KC was not telling the truth. CA reported it to LE on the phone when she was reporting the whole thing.
may be neither here nor there but let's get it straight.

I guess the way I view it is that GA did not report the smell when he came into possession of the car. CA did not not report the smell until she realized her Caylee was missing.At that point she was hysterical and blurted it out. She very quickly backtracked and said the smell was rotting pizza. GA didn't report the smell until the police were there,many hours after he first realized what the smell was. WHY DIDN'T HE REPORT IT IMMEDIATELY? Being ex-LE I'm sure he realized the gig was up once Cindy got the cops involved.Any chance of hiding the fact there was decomp in the car was over.If he didn't give them that info then he might come under a cloud of suspicion. Despite a possible cleanup job ,there was no mistaking the strong smell of human decomp,and George knew it.
I wish LE had impounded the car earlier. It may be as simple as each person believing someone else had already handled it. I suspect it was a mistake,but they certainly obtained a great deal of evidnce ,despite the delay.The defense has many more issues to overcome .It doesn't just all hinge on the pontiac.
I have no doubt that if CA had not gotten frustrated with KC and called LE that night ,no one would have ever heard of Caylee Marie Anthony or her disappearance. There would have been a cover story,like she was with her dad.I think GA and CA would have spent the rest of their lives covering up Caylee's murder for KC.All just my opinion based on what I've seen to date.

 

[ZsaZsa]

GA reported it to Yuri Melich immediately upon his arrival at the Anthony's. he told Yuri that it smelled like something dead was in the back of the car and that KC was not telling the truth. CA reported it to LE on the phone when she was reporting the whole thing.
may be neither here nor there but let's get it straight.

In this video Yuri Melich says that 'someone mentioned there was a bad smell in the car'- it is at 3.51 into the video- it doesn't sound from the way he describes it that George approached him and discussed his concerns, more that it was just part of conversation that he recalled later...... ?
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuuTH7GxFyk&feature=related[/ame]

 

[cecybeans]

Okay, this is my last post on the car (she says to great applause).

In a perfect world, it would have been nice if LE had immediately taken the car, although I suspect GA already had told them he looked in the trunk and no Caylee (which was the immediate focus for all). For all we know he and CA were already emphasizing the "it's just garbage" story. And I'm sure LE wishes they had taken it right away even though they knew it was compromised and CA had already admitted taking evidence out of the car and even washing it.

To me, the real culprits were GA and CA for even picking it up in the first place. GA, as an ex cop, knew right away a crime had been committed in that car the minute he smelled decomp. The fact that both of them did not call LE right away and have them come directly to the towyard says volumes. They had not seen Caylee and had barely heard from KC in a month. She texts that she is in Jax, but her car is sitting in an impound lot smelling like a dead body. With all the lying and stealing she had done, why did she even deserve to explain before LE got involved, regardless of whose decomp it ended up being?

The fact that the Anthonys paid several hundred dollars for that car and drove it home themselves to hide it in the garage until THEY could locate KC first and deal with things on their own is evidence they suspected her of something right away. As my friend Cat pointed out to me, if the Anthonys had been circumspect, they would know that LE could have found KC from all of the evidence in the car themselves (probably more quickly). They made a decision to deal with it on their own and not involve law enforcement until KC refused to cooperate. All they really cared about was finding Caylee - and if KC had been able to produce her, I'm certain LE would have never known about the fact their car had had a dead body in the trunk. How is lying to your parents about your whereabouts and refusing to show up at home with your daughter cooperating and at what point does that warrant complicity when your car is found clearly smelling of decomp? Once again, the Anthonys felt entitled to handle a crime their daughter had committed on their own without involving LE until they felt there was no other choice, and after evidence had been either destroyed or completely compromised.

What is hilarious to me - and neutralizes any complaint one may have with how LE handled the situation, is that after they went to such lengths to impede progress and after it was clear their own daughter obviously had had no intention of reporting Caylee missing on her own, CA had the nerve to criticize how LE handled things, particularly for not issuing an Amber Alert (after a month??) or not vigorously going after KC's friends and acquaintances regardless of the fact they had little or no opportunity or motive. To me it's delusionally hypocritical to delay involving LE until one has cleaned up after someone else who never intended to come forward at all, and then complain about how badly one thinks LE is handling the investigation.

So imo, clearly the onus should always be on the Anthonys first for plainly interfering with an investigation by not reporting it to LE right away even though they obviously knew their daughter was in big trouble. If they had done what they knew was right, instead of tweaking it on their own first - LE would have been able to impound the car at the towyard with all the evidence preserved, locate KC quickly, and we would have never needed to have this discussion at all. I don't believe for a minute that an ex-cop and a nurse didn't know exactly what they were doing. The minute they got a whiff of that trunk, their spinapses were firing and they made the choice to obstruct the investigation by mitigating the damage themselves and to only cooperate with LE about an obvious crime after they had no other choice but to request their help.

 

[JBean]

Probably not my last post LOL.

To me this thread is just about discussing the events of sealing of the car, should it have been done, what happened and why didn't they.Should they have checked the trunk or sniffed the car? was there a delay or was it SOP?

But we are getting far afield and we are going off topic. There are 100’s of threads about CA and GA’s behavior.

the real question is will this have any impact at all? I don’t think so. It doesn’t change facts, it doesn’t change circumstances. The only thing it would affect is if any evidence is kept out of trial or if any evidence was lost. I personally don't think it will matter.

let's get back to the topic of the sealing of the car and whether it is important at all.

 

[JBean]

In this video Yuri Melich says that 'someone mentioned there was a bad smell in the car'- it is at 3.51 into the video- it doesn't sound from the way he describes it that George approached him and discussed his concerns, more that it was just part of conversation that he recalled later...... ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuuTH7GxFyk&feature=related

Exactly one of my points ZsaZsa and thank you. That is what is so disturbing to me. YM makes the smelly car sound like an afterthought and just nothing of consequence at all.
But once we reviewed YM's report it is documented by YM himself that the "someone" that "mentioned there was a bad smell in the car'" was GA himself. Not only did he tell him it was a bad smell, he told him that he thought it smelled like something was dead back there and that KC was not being forthright and she was holding information back. he also expressed concern that something really bad had happened to Caylee.

So to say oh then I remember that someone said something about a smell really downplays the car odor entirely and i just find that odd. Probably nothing at all, but it is odd,imo.

 

[RR0004]

I wish someone from OCSO would post whether or not someone was keeping any eye on the car. Actually, having them give us all the info about the car would be great!

PS- Hey, a girl can dream, right?

 

[Cat13067]

GA was a former homicide dectective why wouldn't he tell his family not to touch the car until LE examined it? GA knew that the smell was decomposition, so why didn't he seal the car off until LE retrieved it? It is so odd that GA uses his homicide detective card when it benefits him, and plays down his experience when it implicates his daughter in a crime. Am I blaming GA for not protecting the car until LE examined it...I guess I am due to the fact he knew there was something decomposing in that trunk.

 

[Harmony 2]

At the 7:20 timestamp Yuri agrees that there was an abandoned "car with evidence of human decomposition" and yet he states Casey is a POI and not a suspect in those circumstances. It appears he was trying to be very cautious not to come across as rushing to judgement.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=659JE9JrkfI[/ame]

I agree RR0004, I would like to know if someone was keeping an eye on the car.

 

[RR0004]

JBean...according to LA...when he arrived the trunk was open.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/17564421/detail.html

Now whether or not someone closed it...that's another story...

 

[RR0004]

At the 7:20 timestamp Yuri agrees that there was an abandoned "car with evidence of human decomposition" and yet he states Casey is a POI and not a suspect in those circumstances. It appears he was trying to be very cautious not to come across as rushing to judgement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=659JE9JrkfI

I agree RR0004, I would like to know if someone was keeping an eye on the car.

I thought according to Cindy in her deposition with Morgan she stated that the police were by the garage (WRONG)...oh now I'll have to go back and look.

****ETA: nope...she stated Casey was never alone...she was always with a deputy!!

 

[JBean]

GA was a former homicide dectective why wouldn't he tell his family not to touch the car until LE examined it? GA knew that the smell was decomposition, so why didn't he seal the car off until LE retrieved it? It is so odd that GA uses his homicide detective card when it benefits him, and plays down his experience when it implicates his daughter in a crime. Am I blaming GA for not protecting the car until LE examined it...I guess I am due to the fact he knew there was something decomposing in that trunk.

HI Cat. Why wouldn't we expect LE to do the very same that you expected GA to do?

IMO, he is a biased parent first and jumping to the conclusion that his daughter murdered his granddaughter would be a huge and unusual leap. I think he wrestled with it and thought of it; but it would be a very rare person that would seal off their own car (before they even knew for a fact that their granddaughter was truly missing) because they suspected their daughter murdered her. At that point who would even imagine it? Not me I can tell you that.

Unless KC exhibited murderous qualities or was deranged or violent or abusive to caylee, I just think assuming murder would be an odd conclusion to jump to. Moreover, think of the towyard guy. he wasn't overly excited about it and perhaps that was enough to assuage GA's immediate fears about anything so radical as murder. Maybe he was putting off the inevitable, but they did seek out the truth and told LE everything they knew.

If you think about it, GA and CA smelled the smell and set out to find caylee and KC and figure out what is going on. They located KC and in that 3rd 911 call I think that is when CA gets it.
I think once GA realizes that murder is a real possibility he does do the right thing and tells the lead investigator everything he knows including the possibilty that there is decomp in the car and somethin' ain't right with his daughter.

I have no problem giving LE a pass for not doing anything about the car or not being concerned about it right away. They did their research prioritized the best they could and decided the car was valuable later. But if we do that, we must give GA and CA that very same pass because they basically did the same thing.

It's funny because over and over in this thread it is said that LE was responding to a missing girl not a dead one. So, why do we not give CA and GA the exact same break? They too were looking for a missing girl not a dead one. They had more invested in holding out hope for a live baby not a dead one.

But in the big picture it is not about LE or CA or GA, it is about KC and what she may have done to that child.

 

[Cat13067]

HI Cat. Why wouldn't we expect LE to do the very same that you expected GA to do?

IMO, he is a biased parent first and jumping to the conclusion that his daughter murdered his granddaughter would be a huge and unusual leap. I think he wrestled with it and thought of it; but it would be a very rare person that would seal off their own car (before they even knew for a fact that their granddaughter was truly missing) because they suspected their daughter murdered her. At that point who would even imagine it? Not me I can tell you that.

Unless KC exhibited murderous qualities or was deranged or violent or abusive to caylee, I just think assuming murder would be an odd conclusion to jump to. Moreover, think of the towyard guy. he wasn't overly excited about it and perhaps that was enough to assuage GA's immediate fears about anything so radical as murder. Maybe he was putting off the inevitable, but they did seek out the truth and told LE everything they knew.

If you think about it, GA and CA smelled the smell and set out to find caylee and KC and figure out what is going on. They located KC and in that 3rd 911 call I think that is when CA gets it.
I think once GA realizes that murder is a real possibility he does do the right thing and tells the lead investigator everything he knows including the possibilty that there is decomp in the car and somethin' ain't right with his daughter.

I have no problem giving LE a pass for not doing anything about the car or not being concerned about it right away. They did their research prioritized the best they could and decided the car was valuable later. But if we do that, we must give GA and CA that very same pass because they basically did the same thing.

It's funny because over and over in this thread it is said that LE was responding to a missing girl not a dead one. So, why do we not give CA and GA the exact same break? They too were looking for a missing girl not a dead one. They had more invested in holding out hope for a live baby not a dead one.

But in the big picture it is not about LE or CA or GA, it is about KC and what she may have done to that child.

Had GA notified LE when he smelled the decomposition in the car at the towing company they too would have had the opportunity to secure the car immediately. GA even prayed under his breathe "please don't let this be my Caylee". I can tell you I would not have touched that car. I would have contacted LE as soon as I got a whiff of that odor. After all he was a homicide detective, and their are some smells you don't ever forget. Those words are GA's so he knew there was reason to expect foul play, and he should have called LE right from the towing company instead of driving the car home and hiding it in his garage. I'm sorry GA behavior just doesn't make sense to me regarding this car.

 

[joypath]

Just taking this quote: "that LE was responding to a missing girl not a dead one." and adding that in reality good ole LE was responding to THREE calls: the "stolen car", the missing daughter & granddaughter and finally the kidnapped granddaughter. The priority was the kidnapping, again quoting "I have no problem giving LE a pass for not doing anything about the car or not being concerned about it right away. They did their research prioritized the best they could and decided the car was valuable later." and they followed protocol...living rescues first, recovery later.

On a more practical note: How many felons have such marvelous family members that even when they ...ahem...try to "sanitize" the scene, they are complete failures! Actually, C & G have made it worse via their spontaneous utterance regarding the decomposition smell and that smell,my friends, lingers no matter what time passed before sealing the vehicle.