Possible NEW Suspects In JonBenet Ramsey Case?

[Agatha_C]

Uhmmmm, the palm print on the wine cellar door was sourced to MRL, JRs daughter. The boots (HiTech) both BR and FWJ admitted to the grand jury that they each owned a pair. The hair on the blanket was sourced to Patsy's arm, thats right it was an arm hair and not pubic. The scuff marks under the window could have come from anything or anyone, no one has proven them to be from a shoe, they only speculated. Boys played in that train room, maybe the scuffs came from them and if I was a betting person, thats where I would place my money.

You mention one of the doors being unlocked and reference the scuff marks under the window. Let me ask you this, if the intruder could use the open door, why did he/she use the window? Why did they take JB to the basement at all, when passing all those doors and one unlocked at that? This right here needs to make more sense if your selling the IDI theory.

I have never read an RDI theory, that claims BR did all of those horrible things to that little girl. Nope, maybe the molesting and some bullying but no one has ever said he was that vicious or sick. BDI usually has murder as an accident or event that went out of control and the parents staging the sick stuff. But in case you wonder what 7, 8, and 9 year old children are capable of, I would suggest you google young children who commit murder, you might have nightmares after reading what you find, Lord knows, I have.

The missing key from outside, really? Again, he has a key and an open door, why the basement and the window. Why a dead Jonbenet in the basement, when a living Jonbenet could have gone out the front door? I cant even wrap my head around that...

My bet is the duct tape is with the rope, in the same box the Rs investigater found the size 12 panties stashed. By the way, that box was in Nedra's garage...

If you read my signature you'll see that ML had to back crawl on her clearing of the Rs. She said no one is cleared except by a court of law and that the family has to be looked at as they were the only people in the house...

As for the TDNA, as a person knowledgeable with crime and investigation, you should know its a touchy science. I would like to point out that the same lab BODE, that handled the JB TDNA also handled the Chandra Levy TDNA, around the same time no less, and look at the fiasco that became. They got it all wrong and many people were left with egg on their face. So I take these findings with a grain of salt and anyone interested should really research the pro's and con's of this type of DNA ans it isnt the same as regular DNA, not at all. Also ask yourselves if the mother dressed the child in the PJs, where was her TDNA? Hmmmmmmm....

All the above are proven with the exception of the scuff marks. You might want to do more reading on this case...

 

[freshwater]

AKWILKS, I have always leaned towards an RDI scenario, but I really appreciate your posts on this case, as well as the Tylenol case. (and Zodiac as well? I think.)

You really lay out your points very well. Keep up the good work.

As far as the "southern common sense" goes, I believe that was a term that was an inside joke amongst the Ramsey family members towards John, seeing as he was from Michigan (as you know).

There's no point in sniping at each other here. This case is almost 15 years old now. I think it's safe to say that the professional investigators in Colorado have hit a brick wall. There's room for all of us to continue to work all of the angles and see what we can come up with. The truth is what's important here - not who ends up being right or wrong with their own particular theory.

Thanks.

 

[Whaleshark]

By AKWILKS:
"*In both cases, an audacious entry was made into the dwelling through a small aperture while the family members slept; in each case the perpetrator was familiar with the layout of the house."
____

Brian Mitchell did not, nor did anyone else come through that train room window.
The ridiculous testimony of JR about the train room window, how an intruder would have come in and out of that room/area, how he would have re-blocked it from the other side, since it was shown to have been blocked on the outside, is what convinced me that an intruder did NOT go in that way, and is why I came off the fence....and why would they go back out that way anyway, and not out through the back door, much less that it was almost physically impossible to do so, since outside that window is a drop down well area...

So, if Brian Mitchell did it, he didn't go in (or back out) that way.
___

By AKWILKS:

"If Mitchell (and maybe Barzee) wrote the RN, it would have been for much the same purpose as if Patsy did it - to deflect blame. They would not have held JonBenet for ransom, but kept her as "wife", i.e., child sex slave, as they did Elizabeth. So the ransom note would be designed to deflect blame and perhaps delay authorities. So they would not have used religious langauge in it".
_____

I bolded your last statement. It doesn't seem that Brian and Wanda cared about deflecting blame though. In Wanda's journal writing, she states:
"..And these young women who will be taken from their parents, brothers and sisters, and other family members and friends, through their separation and all that they shall suffer, will be the means and the way that they will Repent and come unto Jesus Christ."

In reading up on Brian Mitchell and Wanda Barzee, it seems their whole existence and purpose is to fulfill their "supposed" religious convictions, as noted here:

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110519/news/705199967/print/

"...As evidence the defense is expected to rely on testimony from mental health experts who have evaluated Mitchell and will likely point to a 27-page manifesto drafted by Mitchell - "The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah" - as evidence of his delusions.

The rambling tome drafted a few months before Smart's June 5, 2002, kidnapping lays out Mitchell's own brand of religion that mixes revelations from early Mormon theology with excerpts from the King James version of the Bible and the writings of several New Age philosophers. The manifesto, an addendum to whi ch has been written since Mitchell was arrested in March 2003, proclaims Mitchell a prophet and predicts his wife, Wanda Eileen Barzee, will take "seven times, seven sisters," an apparent endorsement of polygamy."

"He told me he was a prophet," said Smart, who was given a religious name and was forced to wear a long, white robe, head scarf and two veils across her face. "He said he was the voice of God on Earth and that he would reign over God's children until Jesus came."
___

Also, the ransom note has specific references to ransom movie themes, in which they would have to have been familiar with to write in the note, but Wanda Barzee's son says this about them:

"In 1991, I heard my mom and Brian had hit the road, sold their possessions and began preaching. I guess they were trying to live a life of poverty to probably get closer to God," Derrick says. "They hung out at the bus station, at the homeless shelters, and that's where they preached."
____

Dirty Harry, Speed, Ransom, Ruthless People - all referenced in the ransom note.

It doesn't seem that Brian Mitchell and Wanda Barzee were watching these movies planning for ransoms. Per Wanda's testimony:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700083173/Wanda-Barzee-says-she-learned-to-be-submissive-and-obedient.html?pg=7
Barzee: We always prayed, but he was always critical of me for the shows I wanted to watch. He wouldn't allow me to watch shows I wanted to. If I started watching a show, he would punish me if he didn't want to watch it. He would be angry, leave the room, not have anything to do with me until I gave him what he wanted. He was very particular on shows he wanted to watch. He even sold our TV saying we would only watch videos he would pick out.

Steele: What shows weren't you able to watch?

Barzee: There was "9 to 5" that I saw one time that I thought was a delightful show. I laughed throughout it. I thought it was comedic. It wasn't a bad show. I saw that once when I was still with my first husband but he never wanted me to watch it.
___

Rather than testimony about how they got ransom note ideas from the movies they watched, there is not much tv watching being allowed during this time, or most of the time it is controlled throughout the marriage it seems.

Also, this is what they were doing in 1996 as well:

http://www.deseretnews.com/mobile/article/700086557/Brian-David-Mitchell-more-like-Clouseau-than-Bond-therapist-testifies.html
"Frank DiSalvo, a music teacher and ordained minister in Redding, Calif., said he met Mitchell and his wife Wanda Barzee in 1996. The couple had pulled their wooden handcart from Palo Alto, across the Golden Gate Bridge and past Sacramento into northern California near the Oregon border. The pair slept at a nearby campsite, and DiSalvo often provided food and even let them shower in his house".
__

It seems they built that handcart in 1996 and were pulling it around the west coast at that time.
___
In reference to her journal, handwriting, and location during that time -
http://www.sltrib.com/csp/cms/sites/sltrib/pages/printerfriendly.csp?id=50704089
"Barzee: It was then. I was always right-handed but when we traveled through the nation we were up in the Santa Cruz mountains of Palo Alto, California. We stayed there for five months while we pulled a handcart and I felt impressed to practice writing with my left hand. So this was written with my left hand."

Barzee: We were up in the Santa Cruz Mountains for five months.

___

Brian's handwriting - also found a letter from Brian Mitchell:
http://extras.sltrib.com/ATTRG4UA.pdf

Just for comparison...looked at his handwriting. Don't think it's a match either...

 

[Agatha_C]

AKWILKS, I have always leaned towards an RDI scenario, but I really appreciate your posts on this case, as well as the Tylenol case. (and Zodiac as well? I think.)

You really lay out your points very well. Keep up the good work.

As far as the "southern common sense" goes, I believe that was a term that was an inside joke amongst the Ramsey family members towards John, seeing as he was from Michigan (as you know).

There's no point in sniping at each other here. This case is almost 15 years old now. I think it's safe to say that the professional investigators in Colorado have hit a brick wall. There's room for all of us to continue to work all of the angles and see what we can come up with. The truth is what's important here - not who ends up being right or wrong with their own particular theory.

Thanks.

I was in no way attacking anyones theory. I however have an issue with basing any theory on or the passing of misinformation. Thats part of the reason this whole case is so messed up. New members that sit on the fence read this wrong info and base their opinions on them. We need to keep it straight and accurate or we are no better than the ones we judge in the mishandling of evidence.

Lets keep it real and learn where we can. AK is very impressive with the time given and knowledge of other cases, I respect AK, but I have the right to set the record straight when it warps the facts...

 

[vlpate]

Uhmmmm, the palm print on the wine cellar door was sourced to MRL, JRs daughter. The boots (HiTech) both BR and FWJ admitted to the grand jury that they each owned a pair. The hair on the blanket was sourced to Patsy's arm, thats right it was an arm hair and not pubic. The scuff marks under the window could have come from anything or anyone, no one has proven them to be from a shoe, they only speculated. Boys played in that train room, maybe the scuffs came from them and if I was a betting person, thats where I would place my money.

You mention one of the doors being unlocked and reference the scuff marks under the window. Let me ask you this, if the intruder could use the open door, why did he/she use the window? Why did they take JB to the basement at all, when passing all those doors and one unlocked at that? This right here needs to make more sense if your selling the IDI theory.

I have never read an RDI theory, that claims BR did all of those horrible things to that little girl. Nope, maybe the molesting and some bullying but no one has ever said he was that vicious or sick. BDI usually has murder as an accident or event that went out of control and the parents staging the sick stuff. But in case you wonder what 7, 8, and 9 year old children are capable of, I would suggest you google young children who commit murder, you might have nightmares after reading what you find, Lord knows, I have.

The missing key from outside, really? Again, he has a key and an open door, why the basement and the window. Why a dead Jonbenet in the basement, when a living Jonbenet could have gone out the front door? I cant even wrap my head around that...

My bet is the duct tape is with the rope, in the same box the Rs investigater found the size 12 panties stashed. By the way, that box was in Nedra's garage...

If you read my signature you'll see that ML had to back crawl on her clearing of the Rs. She said no one is cleared except by a court of law and that the family has to be looked at as they were the only people in the house...

As for the TDNA, as a person knowledgeable with crime and investigation, you should know its a touchy science. I would like to point out that the same lab BODE, that handled the JB TDNA also handled the Chandra Levy TDNA, around the same time no less, and look at the fiasco that became. They got it all wrong and many people were left with egg on their face. So I take these findings with a grain of salt and anyone interested should really research the pro's and con's of this type of DNA ans it isnt the same as regular DNA, not at all. Also ask yourselves if the mother dressed the child in the PJs, where was her TDNA? Hmmmmmmm....

All the above are proven with the exception of the scuff marks. You might want to do more reading on this case...

Sheesh, thank you. That took care of most of it! The scuff marks on the wall - I always thought they were from when John had to climb through that window when he locked himself out. The sexual molestation has been overstated and I believe staged.

As for all the credentials - wow, impressive, but many before you had a lot of credentials and as of today, still no killer in jail. Just sayin'.

I have to go back to work...I'll give you my BDI theory later. I will tell you that the only part of the crime I do not believe was staged was the bash to her head.

 

[AKWILKS]

Agatha - You state all these are proven. Proven and not in dispute?

Uhmmmm, the palm print on the wine cellar door was sourced to MRL, JRs daughter.

AK - Can you give me a source or cite for this being proven?

The boots (HiTech) both BR and FWJ admitted to the grand jury that they each owned a pair.

AK - Source or cite?

The hair on the blanket was sourced to Patsy's arm, thats right it was an arm hair and not pubic.

AK - Source or cite please?

Also, I can't answer questions like "if the intruder came in through the unlocked door or used Patsy's missing outdoor key, why did he try to exit through the basement window?" Answer - I don't know. I am suggesting that there were multiple possible points of entry and exit for an intruder. Perhaps entry and exit was by the basement window. Perhaps entry was through the unlocked door or front via Patsy's key, and the scream, or things going wrong, or other factors we can't know, led to the basement as an exit point. Perhaps the sexual molestation was not planned.

One thing I discovered about criminals, most of them are not very bright. I did a burglary case once, the man was arrested outside the house. He had broken in but didn't take anything, even though there was money, jewelry and electronics available. I asked him, since you had already done the felony by breaking in, why did you not take anything? He didn't know. He just didn't feel like taking anything. Then why the heck did you break in? He didn't know, he just felt like it! No logic!

I could tell you more horrible stories about an intelligent and respected man in the community, yes sort of like a John Ramsey but not as rich, molested his daughter and ejaculated in a place where the evidence would be used against him. This man knew all about DNA. Did he secretly want to get caught? Did he get lost in the moment? He had no answer.

I could tell you a hundred stories were the actions of the criminal made no sense at all, no logic, no rationality.

If we explore an intruder theory, we can't even be 100% certain of motive. Some who knew BDM say he wanted to start a church or a "cult". You need money for that. Did he read the article about a billion dollars in sales for Access Graphics? Could this have been a real kidnapping for ransom, perhaps derailed by BDM pedophilliac lusts and violent temper? Or was this an attempt, one of the "failed attempts" referenced in the journal, to get a child sex slave "wife"? Friends of Wanda Barzee noted she was anguished about losing custody of her children and that she would walk around with a doll. Did she want a real life "doll"?

Also "Dirty Harry" came out in the early 1970's. For most of his life, Mitchell was an athiest, he drank and did drugs, and watched TV and movies like anyone else. He may have restriced what Wanda watched, but he said he had to "descend" into the filthy world by reading , Satanic material and other things forbidden.

Some experts said he believed he was God, others said it was simply a con, that he conned Wanda to be his servant, tried to con and brainwash Elizabeth Smart into believing she was chosen by God to be his wife, and simply used his elaborate mish mash of Fundementalist Mormonism, Christianity, New Age nonsense and bits of his Satanism fascination to justify his lust for children and give it a religious stamp of approval.

Thanks to freshwater, whaleshark and others for intelligent comments, questions and criticisms.. For those interested you can see my research essay on the Tylenol Murders here: http://unazod.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=63 and on Zodiac here: http://unazod.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=96

 

[DeeDee249]

All are proven. All are out here in cyberspace to be researched by anyone.
The errors remain, however, because the corrections were never trumpeted in the media with the same ferocity as the lies were.
The hair was NOT a pubic hair. It was Patsy's forearm hair.
The palm print was MR's.
The Hi-Tec shoes (sneakers, actually), were owned by the Rs and admitted to LE under questioning. There are hundreds of pages of interviews with the Rs on http://www.acandyrose.com

I will say that, though BR admitted owning these sneakers after his parents denied it, there has been NO proof that the shoe print in the basement actually was made by any shoe belonging to a family member. Only that they owned such shoes.
Hi-Tec is a shoe worn by LE as well as typical footwear for repairmen, etc. There are several styles. There had been activity in that basement wineceller just weeks before the murder. Christmas decorations and decorated artificial trees were stored there and the housekeeper's (LHP) husband (and son?) took them out for Patsy.

 

[Agatha_C]

Agatha - You state all these are proven. Proven and not in dispute?

Uhmmmm, the palm print on the wine cellar door was sourced to MRL, JRs daughter.

AK - Can you give me a source or cite for this being proven?

The boots (HiTech) both BR and FWJ admitted to the grand jury that they each owned a pair.

AK - Source or cite?

The hair on the blanket was sourced to Patsy's arm, thats right it was an arm hair and not pubic.

AK - Source or cite please?

Also, I can't answer questions like "if the intruder came in through the unlocked door or used Patsy's missing outdoor key, why did he try to exit through the basement window?" Answer - I don't know. I am suggesting that there were multiple possible points of entry and exit for an intruder. Perhaps entry and exit was by the basement window. Perhaps entry was through the unlocked door or front via Patsy's key, and the scream, or things going wrong, or other factors we can't know, led to the basement as an exit point. Perhaps the sexual molestation was not planned.

One thing I discovered about criminals, most of them are not very bright. I did a burglary case once, the man was arrested outside the house. He had broken in but didn't take anything, even though there was money, jewelry and electronics available. I asked him, since you had already done the felony by breaking in, why did you not take anything? He didn't know. He just didn't feel like taking anything. Then why the heck did you break in? He didn't know, he just felt like it! No logic!

I could tell you more horrible stories about an intelligent and respected man in the community, yes sort of like a John Ramsey but not as rich, molested his daughter and ejaculated in a place where the evidence would be used against him. This man knew all about DNA. Did he secretly want to get caught? Did he get lost in the moment? He had no answer.

I could tell you a hundred stories were the actions of the criminal made no sense at all, no logic, no rationality.

If we explore an intruder theory, we can't even be 100% certain of motive. Some who knew BDM say he wanted to start a church or a "cult". You need money for that. Did he read the article about a billion dollars in sales for Access Graphics? Could this have been a real kidnapping for ransom, perhaps derailed by BDM pedophilliac lusts and violent temper? Or was this an attempt, one of the "failed attempts" referenced in the journal, to get a child sex slave "wife"? Friends of Wanda Barzee noted she was anguished about losing custody of her children and that she would walk around with a doll. Did she want a real life "doll"?

Also "Dirty Harry" came out in the early 1970's. For most of his life, Mitchell was an athiest, he drank and did drugs, and watched TV and movies like anyone else. He may have restriced what Wanda watched, but he said he had to "descend" into the filthy world by reading , Satanic material and other things forbidden.

Some experts said he believed he was God, others said it was simply a con, that he conned Wanda to be his servant, tried to con and brainwash Elizabeth Smart into believing she was chosen by God to be his wife, and simply used his elaborate mish mash of Fundementalist Mormonism, Christianity, New Age nonsense and bits of his Satanism fascination to justify his lust for children and give it a religious stamp of approval.

Thanks to freshwater, whaleshark and others for intelligent comments, questions and criticisms.. For those interested you can see my research essay on the Tylenol Murders here: http://unazod.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=63 and on Zodiac here: http://unazod.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=96

AK, sorry, but I lack the time to properly address your post. House full of kids and its raining so you can imagine (LOL.... I promise to give your post more attention this evening. I am however adding a link for you to explore. I recommend reading the whole page or you can simply do as DeeDee advised and look them up for yourself. Either way, I 'll do my part when I return later...

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-prints-hand-foot.htm

 

[Whaleshark]

Yes, would start here:

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetindex.htm

 

[AKWILKS]

Above is a letter from Brian David Mitchell. Most of it is in cursive and can't be compared to the ransom note.

Also, it was written 19 years before the ransom note. People change elements of their writing style over time. And we don't know if the rasom note writer made efforts to disguise his/her natural writing.

Having said all that...

Below is the "M" from BDM's letter, I eliminated the curly, and next to it is the "M" from the ransom note. They appear to be somehwat close in style, slant and the extra flourish at the end which comes down and then up.

Now, thanks to Agatha, DeeDee and Whale shark I do see this:

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4770"]The Truth About Judge Julie Carnes’ Decision Boot/Palm Print - Forums For Justice[/ame]


A reporter from the Rocky Mountain News states Melinda was identified as the source of the palmprint. I would like to see a statement from police to that effect, all of the newspapers in this case have printed lots of stuff that turned out not to be true. And the attorney hints that Burke Ramsey told the grand jury he owned Hi-Tec shoes. I would like to see the actual shoes, and see if they match the pattern and size of the print.

The claims were that it was "proven" and "proven beyond dispute" that the palmprint was from Melinda and the shoe print from Burke.

I would not say either claim is "proven beyond dispute."

I would say a "newspaper reported that the palm print was identified, and an attorney claimed Burke stated he had owned Hi-Tec shoes at some undetermined time."

The scuff marks can be debated. As can the suitcase under the window. As can most of the evidence in the case.

The most reliable evidence in the case, so far, is the appearance of male DNA not from a Ramsey or any known friend or associate, that appears on three spots on two different articles of clothing. Absent a major lab error, this is very likely to be DNA from the attacker, though I agree we cannot rule out 100% that it came from some other source. But to leave a 9 marker DNA spot, indicates it likely came from a rough pull, and it for it to be on both sides of the longjohns, plus in the blood spot on the panties, you have to stretch to come up with a realistic scenario for how it got there other than an intruder.

 

[SunnieRN]

If that DNA was from one person and that person was outside the family, then where is Patsys DNA on the same clothing items? She said she dressed JonBenet in the long johns, as she couldn't find her pink pj bottoms. If the DNA was found from an unknown person, why wasn't Patsys DNA found also? She admitted she touched the long johns. Kind of hard to understand why hers or Johns DNA (he carried her upstairs from the basement), wasn't found.

I would be very interested in seeing test results that state there were nine markers, as the results I have seen, state it could possibly be a mixed sample with JonBenets blood. Remember, at least 2 people in the R family touched those long johns for sure. I can not, believe that it can be ruled out to be a mixed sample, since we know for a fact that JonBenet bled vaginally and was wiped down, thereby possibly spreading her blood onto the long johns when she was re-dressed. All it would take to contaminate that blood sample was the touch dna from the person who redressed her.

DNA is a very tricky thing and touch DNA may be the scariest of all, since we all leave it behind us and it can be picked up and transferred easily.

Agatha, I hope the rain stops and you and your family get a break from being cooped up!! And where is Becky??

 

[Whaleshark]

...Below is the "M" from BDM's letter, I eliminated the curly, and next to it is the "M" from the ransom note. They appear to be somehwat close in style, slant and the extra flourish at the end which comes down and then up.

To 'eliminate the curly' is to alter his handwriting to fit the handwriting comparison. That's not really a fair comparison then....

We could compare whether which handwritings really are closer or not all day, but if we are comparing that part, then I would offer this comparison as noted by Cherokee:

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?p=115065"]http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?p=115065[/ame]

"The following signature was taken from Patsy Ramsey's painting entitled "Belvedere Cabanas" which was completed in May 2006 and is shown at the following web site:

http://www.patsyramseyfoundation.org/02cabanas.htm

I have adjusted the original color and contrast so the signature can been viewed more clearly. "

Edited to add: While we are comparing m's, look at the little 'm' in 'Ramsey' above in Patsy's painting signature, and also the little 'm' in 'Ramsey' in the beginning of the ransom note. In fact, the whole word 'Ramsey' as noted by Cherokee... and I didn't cut off anything to make the words or letters more similar....
__

And well, I'll just offer this whole thread regarding her handwriting as well:

[ame="http://174.122.99.4/forums/showthread.php?t=7013"]http://174.122.99.4/forums/showthread.php?t=7013[/ame]

 

[AKWILKS]

Above is a letter from Brian David Mitchell. Most of it is in cursive and can't be compared to the ransom note. The "M" is not in cursive and you can compare it to the "M" in the ransom note.


Also, it was written 19 years before the ransom note.

But below is the "M" from BDM's letter, I eliminated the curly, and next to it is the "M" from the ransom note. They appear to be close in style, slant and the extra flourish at the end which comes down and then up.

BDM and the ransom note writer also use and spell "POSSESION" with 3 "S" 's, though they leave out a different "S".

BDM and the ransom note writer also use "DIFFICULT", and the word "DEVIATE" to indicate variance from a plan or idea.

 

[tezi]

Uhmmmm, the palm print on the wine cellar door was sourced to MRL, JRs daughter. The boots (HiTech) both BR and FWJ admitted to the grand jury that they each owned a pair. The hair on the blanket was sourced to Patsy's arm, thats right it was an arm hair and not pubic. The scuff marks under the window could have come from anything or anyone, no one has proven them to be from a shoe, they only speculated. Boys played in that train room, maybe the scuffs came from them and if I was a betting person, thats where I would place my money.

You mention one of the doors being unlocked and reference the scuff marks under the window. Let me ask you this, if the intruder could use the open door, why did he/she use the window? Why did they take JB to the basement at all, when passing all those doors and one unlocked at that? This right here needs to make more sense if your selling the IDI theory.

I have never read an RDI theory, that claims BR did all of those horrible things to that little girl. Nope, maybe the molesting and some bullying but no one has ever said he was that vicious or sick. BDI usually has murder as an accident or event that went out of control and the parents staging the sick stuff. But in case you wonder what 7, 8, and 9 year old children are capable of, I would suggest you google young children who commit murder, you might have nightmares after reading what you find, Lord knows, I have.

The missing key from outside, really? Again, he has a key and an open door, why the basement and the window. Why a dead Jonbenet in the basement, when a living Jonbenet could have gone out the front door? I cant even wrap my head around that...

My bet is the duct tape is with the rope, in the same box the Rs investigater found the size 12 panties stashed. By the way, that box was in Nedra's garage...

If you read my signature you'll see that ML had to back crawl on her clearing of the Rs. She said no one is cleared except by a court of law and that the family has to be looked at as they were the only people in the house...

As for the TDNA, as a person knowledgeable with crime and investigation, you should know its a touchy science. I would like to point out that the same lab BODE, that handled the JB TDNA also handled the Chandra Levy TDNA, around the same time no less, and look at the fiasco that became. They got it all wrong and many people were left with egg on their face. So I take these findings with a grain of salt and anyone interested should really research the pro's and con's of this type of DNA ans it isnt the same as regular DNA, not at all. Also ask yourselves if the mother dressed the child in the PJs, where was her TDNA? Hmmmmmmm....

All the above are proven with the exception of the scuff marks. You might want to do more reading on this case...

Thank you for the wonderful post Agatha_C! I thought the misinformation about the hair and the palm print was cleared up many, many years ago. Apparently, I was mistaken, seeing how many people still believe these haven't been sourced. Thank you for taking the time to explain once again where the hair and the palm print originated from.

I really have a huge problem with posters who come in and act like we "old timers" have no clue about the evidence. I also have a problem with posters who post speculation as facts. Where is it a fact that Mitchell and Barzee were in Colorado from 1995 to 1997? It seems like they were in CA in 1996, but I can't be sure.

I think it's a great idea for Mitchell's DNA to be tested against DNA samples in unknown perp cases. JBR's included. I don't think he had anything to do with JB's murder, but then again, it can't hurt to be sure.

MOO, IMO, IMHO, and all other disclaimers...

 

[vlpate]

Above is a letter from Brian David Mitchell. Most of it is in cursive and can't be compared to the ransom note. The "M" is not in cursive and you can compare it to the "M" in the ransom note.


Also, it was written 19 years before the ransom note.

But below is the "M" from BDM's letter, I eliminated the curly, and next to it is the "M" from the ransom note. They appear to be close in style, slant and the extra flourish at the end which comes down and then up.

BDM and the ransom note writer also use and spell "POSSESION" with 3 "S" 's, though they leave out a different "S".

BDM and the ransom note writer also use "DIFFICULT", and the word "DEVIATE" to indicate variance from a plan or idea.

The "t's" on the ransom note and the "t's" on DM's letter are completely different, and you as a handwriting expert (right? Sorry, don't recall), should know these are one of the first things you analyze. Not only for similarities, but some personality profiles include how someone crosses their "t's".

DM crosses the majority of his high or not at all, Patsy, I mean, the intruder, crosses their's the same way every time...low, always low.

 

[vlpate]

Let me ask you to this AK - did Mitchell feed Elizabeth Smart before they left the house? Did he offer her a snack?

Patsy and John were adamant that they never fixed her a snack - they said she never woke up after being put to bed after the Christmas party. Of course they were not anticipating the pineapple showing up on the autopsy, or the fingerprints on the pineapple bowl.

How do you explain this....and the heart drawn on her hand?

There are other things that can't be sourced on the Internet, but that doesn't make them not true. You must have great connections so it shouldn't be hard for you to get the same information.

 

[AKWILKS]

Tezi - I agree, there are facts, and there is speculation. Though I like to think that I offer INFORMED speculation, based on known facts.

It is a fact that when asked where they were going to as they left Idaho in 1995, Mrs. McKnight testified under oath that Wanda Barzee said "Colorado." Of course, I can't prove they went to Colorado, just that is what a reliable third party, with no known reason to lie, said they said.

In their journal, the word "Colorado" never appears. Instead, they state that in 1995 they left Idaho to go on a tour of Mormon historical sites, then to the 'wicked" East Coast cities like New York, where they played the organ in churches that were empty, but filled with "spirits".

It seems like somebody is not telling the truth here.

The journal states they went to Adam-ondi-Ahman, Missouri, a spiritual site for Mormons.

Doug Oswell noted this testimony in which Barzee seemed to remember very little about this supposed trip to Missouri.

From article in Deseret News:



Barzee testified that Mitchell received a revelation during a walk in the woods a short time later. "There wasn't any way to pay for our trailer and he came back and said that it was the Lord's will that we sell everything we owned and buy backpacks and tents and sleeping bags and go hitchhiking across the nation."

Barzee said she received another priesthood blessing from Mitchell in which "I was given specific instruction on how we were to travel hitchhiking across the nation to see the sights and hear the history of the church, first to stop at Adam-ondi-Ahman and go on from there."

Asked by defense attorney Robert Steele about Adam-ondi-Ahman, Barzee at first said she didn't remember where or what it was. Then she said, "I think the Saints are supposed to gather there in the last days."

The couple traveled to Mormon historical sites including Carthage Jail, Liberty Jail, Nauvoo, the Sacred Grove, Barzee said. They also visited Boston, Philadelphia and New York City, "each getting progressively larger and more wicked," she said.

Mitchell gave her another blessing to seek out a humble church in each of those cities for an organ recital, she said. Barzee testified that "miraculously" she was able to do the recitals in each city, but few, if any, "physical bodies" attended.

"There wasn't anybody there in New York City. The spirits we felt were here. Brian even felt to stand up and welcome the spirits there."


So she doesn't know anything about Adam-ondi-Ahman, even though she wrote about it in her account of the tour. And even though she and Mitchell, itinerant Mormon hitchhikers, were able to arrange organ recitals in non-Mormon churches in three large east coast cities, "few if any, 'physical bodies'" attended these recitals, with no one at all attending in New York City. Right.

And this from the Barzee hearing transcript:



Steele: What’s the first place you hitchhiked to from Kooskia?

Barzee: I’m confused now.

Steele: When you walked off the McKnight property, where did you hitchhike to?

Barzee: Well, Fred and Janice, we went back to Salt Lake after we sold all of our belongings, and we stayed in a field and that’s where I was told to get caught up on my journaling and I was to write a journal every day. Then we went back to Fred and Janice’s. I think it was after the 24th of July, and Fred told us that all of our property had been sold. I think we got a check for about 1,900 dollar. I don’t remember the amount exactly.

Steele: Was it after that you headed off on your trip to the east?

Barzee: No, we need to get backpacks and sleeping bags. Brian thought we should hitchhike to Spokane, Washington, and that’s what we did before we received instructions to go back east.

AK - According to the journal, they go to Missouri, but Barzee remembers almost nothing about the trip when asked. According to Mrs. McKnight, Barzee said in 1995 they were going EAST to "COLORADO", and there is some implication she saw them leave in this direction. But according to her testimony, Barzee says they went WEST to Spokane, Washington before going to the East Coast!

Then we have the "homeless blackman named Phil" who spontaneously gives them $300 so they can go to Alaska for the 1996 Christmas holidays!

Barzee is IMO telling some big lies here. I can't say with certainty WHY she is lieing, but the lies contradict the testimony from the neutral person, Mrs. McKnight, who says they went to Colorado.

I am NOT a handwriting expert. I have been involved in a few cases, criminal and civil, were handwriting was an issue. In these cases an expert with an impressive resume would testify his opinion based on analysis that "X" did not write the document in question, and the other expert would testify he did. To say handwriting is more "art" than science is being nice. I simply note that the only printed letter I have seen of BDM's, the "M", has some similarity to the ransom note "M".

More important I think are the words and styles - with BDM/WB using words like ADEQUATE, POSSESSIONS, PARTICULARLY, INDIVIDUALS, BEING, INSTRUCTIONS, "am", "southern", DEVIATE and HENCE, just to name some.

Barzee does record that it was her job to "comfort and soothe" Elizabeth Smart, make sure she had bedding, was comfortable and talk to her to calm her fears. I can make a somewhat speculative analogy from those jobs for a 14 year old kidnap victim to putting bedding and a Dr. Suess book in a suit case, feeding pineapple, and bringing a doll for a 6 year old kidnap victim. But I admit that is speculative.

Barzee also wrote she "bathed" Elizabeth. I compare that to the wiping of JonBenet, though again the analogy is not exact.

 

[Chrishope]

Why would an intruder wipe down the batteries? The flashlight, yes, to get rid of his prints. But why the batteries - he knows his prints aren't on the batteries. He can guess that Ramsey prints are on the batteries, or maybe the housekeeper's prints. I'm assuming of course that the flashlight belonged to the Rs and was already in the house.

 

[Whaleshark]

....but see once you put Wanda in the house feeding her the pineapple, putting the Dr. Seuss book in the suitcase in the train room, gathering dolls for her to take, then you've got her all over the house getting those things together and spending that time in there while all of the Ramsey family is there as well. Not even remotely plausible at this point....

And I don't think you can say that the words and styles are more important than the handwriting when you consider that in this case the ransom note was proven to be written on their notepad, Patsy's notepad found in the house, and with their marker pen in the house, to the point of being put back in the same pen cup from where it came. The handwriting must be analyzed to find out possible writers, and first comes the family to be considered.

I AM trying to consider your suspect possibilities, I really am...but what details I know about the JBR case, trying to make fit with Brian Mitchell and Wanda Barzee seems a bit of a stretch...

 

[vlpate]

Why would an intruder wipe down the batteries? The flashlight, yes, to get rid of his prints. But why the batteries - he knows his prints aren't on the batteries. He can guess that Ramsey prints are on the batteries, or maybe the housekeeper's prints. I'm assuming of course that the flashlight belonged to the Rs and was already in the house.

Well I am assuming there was no intruder and that the R's wiped the batteries in order not to show their fingerprints, or Burke's fingerprints. I think they wanted the flashlight to be found as the "blunt instrument", but they didn't want to be implicated. It was staged - the flashlight was staged.