Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

[WINDSOR]

As a member of LE for almost 3 decades, I have spent a lot of time in court, have taken thousands of witness statements and been to many trials. Ray is not a witness for anything to do with the causes and/or manner of death and can't testify to anything he discussed with Baden, it's all hearsay and he cannot qualify himself to interpret anything to do with the autopsy report or photos of bones. Rules of evidence and testimony, including hearsay, are not my opinions, they are facts.

I never said or even implied John Ray was, is, will be or should be a witness in a court of law in this matter.

 

[WINDSOR]

Her mom, I think, was the only one really pushing for the truth, and she’s dead.John Ray, for whatever he’s worth, is just the lawyer. He won’t do anything unless he’s paid to. I don’t know about her other sister.

Shannan's sister, Sarra sister stab Mari the mother to death.

Mari Gilbert - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[WINDSOR]

I agree! I was only able to find a little bit of research in the time I had available and so far it appears that the thyroid cartilage followed by the the hyoid bone are the most commonly structures to be fractured due to manual strangulation, though finding evidence of such fractures on hyoid bones are still rare overall, mainly when it comes to kids and young adults, their absence does not rule out the possibility that manual strangulation occurred.

Additionally when skeletal remains are discovered it is often difficult to find or recover the corresponding hyoid bones, which are considered “free-floating” in the human body, along with them.

Furthermore, the greater horns of the hyoid bones are the most likely sections of the hyoid structure to be fractured. However, in the case of Shannan Gilbert the greater horns of the the hyoid bones were unfortunately not able to recovered with rest of her remains. Likely this may have resulted in part due to the greater cornu not fusing yet with the hyoid body, which on average occurs at age 25, according to the NIH.

Anthropological analysis of trauma in throat bone and cartilage: A review - PMC

In their analysis of recovered human remains, forensic anthropologists encounter structures of the throat (hyoid bone, thyroid cartilage/bone, cricoid cartilage/bone) that may present evidence of trauma. The recent published literature provides ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Hyoid Bone Fracture: Associated With Head and Neck Trauma—A Rare Case Report - PMC

Fractures of hyoid bone resulting from trauma other than strangulation are very rare; hyoid bone fracture associated with panfacial trauma are even rarer. They occur more frequently in young individuals, and in men more than in women [1]. We report ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I agree. I wonder if perhaps that is why the Suffolk County medical examiner considered the finding a possible result of a thyglossal duct cyst, or other medical pathology, since on x-ray and CT they often appear uncomplicated, homogenous, paramedics, smooth and round and are both associated closely to the hyoid bone and are the most common cause of congenital neck masses. It’s possible that a person can live their whole lives not knowing they have one unless these cysts became infected which could lead to symptoms like dysphasia, pain or discomfort, swelling or the noticeable of development of a lump on the midline of their neck.

https://radiopaedia.org/articles/thyroglossal-duct-cyst#nav_radiographic-features

The Radiology Assistant : Anatomy and Pathology

staging.radiologyassistant.nl

JMO/JMT

If I remember correctly, Shannan had her jaw reconstructed, after it was broken when she was hit by her boyfriend/pimp, Alex Dias. Alex went 'searching' for Shannan with Michael Pak, a day or two after she disappeared. They met with Dr. Hackett at that time as well.

During the reconstruction process, what is the likely-hood if Shannan had a pathological mass on the neck area, it would not be discovered. If no mass existed, then the irregularities in the neck are a result of some other action.

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

If I remember correctly, Shannan had her jaw reconstructed, after it was broken when she was hit by her boyfriend/pimp, Alex Dias. Alex went 'searching' for Shannan with Michael Pak, a day or two after she disappeared. They met with Dr. Hackett at that time as well.

During the reconstruction process, what is the likely-hood if Shannan had a pathological mass on the neck area, it would not be discovered. If no mass existed, then the irregularities in the neck are a result of some other action.

So I am not a dental, trauma or maxofaciallary surgeon would have more insightful and valuable input than me since during my surgery rotation during medical school didn’t really cover in-depth maxofaciallary trauma or titanium implant procedures like Shannan Gilbert had undergone after her ex-boyfriend horrific physical assault.

However, from what I am understn from my reading and research so far, whether or not the condition of SG’s hyoid bone was examined or thoroughly assessed in the ED or by her doctors before or after her surgery may have depended on what type of CT scans, ultrasounds and X-rays of the head and neck were ordered following her trauma and admittance to the hospital and/or if there was trauma also to her respiratory system that compromised her airways or led to her respiratory stats or vitals to decompensated at any point during her treatment or recovery, complications developed post-surgery such as sleep apnea, dental abscess or difficulty or changes in swallowing, the site of injury and other such influential factors.

In some cases The distal cyst though present may not be detected or noticeable by a patient or even their providers until late childhood or adulthood if or when a cyst becomes infected or hemorrhages which can lead clincal features such as an increase in size, a lump that is easier to visualize with the naked eye and pain when swallowing which would could then lead providers to order for more diagnostic tests like CT, ultrasounds or MRIs to make a definitive diagnosis.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/nursing-and-health-professions/thyroglossal-duct-cyst

JMU
If anyone has any more experience, experience or opinions please feel free to share. Much appreciated

Management of maxillofacial trauma in emergency: An update of challenges and controversies - PMC

Trauma management has evolved significantly in the past few decades thereby reducing mortality in the golden hour. However, challenges remain, and one such area is maxillofacial injuries in a polytrauma patient. Severe injuries to the maxillofacial ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Assessment of maxillofacial trauma in emergency department - PMC

The incidence and epidemiological causes of maxillofacial (MF) trauma varies widely. The objective of this study is to point out maxillofacial trauma patients’ epidemiological properties and trauma patterns with simultaneous injuries in different ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Face the Music: Emergency Management of Facial Fractures — Taming the SRU

Maxillofacial trauma is common in the emergency department as ~80% of patients with polytrauma sustain injuries to the head, face, and/or neck. The most common etiologies of facial fractures are: assault (36%), motor vehicle accidents (32%), falls (18%), sports injuries (11%), occupational injuries

www.tamingthesru.com

 

[Warwick7]

Totally agreed, there are a lot of unanswered important questions here, which is why I'm wondering how this came to be "drowning," "uh, exposure?" well "something, something-- natural," "yeah, we're just not sure." Why is this not an active murder investigation? Isn't there talk of the police chief at the time smoking crack? This looks like a series of decisions in line with that. Seriously.

BBM
You are not far off the mark! One top dog is in jail or prison as wr speak.
It took me months to read all the depositions. I just shook my head
She was murdered....

 

[Warwick7]

Her mom, I think, was the only one really pushing for the truth, and she’s dead.John Ray, for whatever he’s worth, is just the lawyer. He won’t do anything unless he’s paid to. I don’t know about her other sister.

Well take the time to read all the depositions, it took me months to finish them. When you get done with them you will know that Ray is not in it for just money and he's not just a lawyer. M00

 

[Mr.Dandy]

Shannan's sister, Sarra sister stab Mari the mother to death.

Mari Gilbert - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

She has another sister though. Sherre.

 

[Mr.Dandy]

Well take the time to read all the depositions, it took me months to finish them. When you get done with them you will know that Ray is not in it for just money and he's not just a lawyer. M00

Where can I find them?

 

[Warwick7]

Where can I find them?

I don't think I have mine or the link anymore. However, I think I got the link from @Betty P , I think. I'll go back and look on my mp's.

 

[Warwick7]

Where can I find them?

Here is a box from a thread a long time ago. I'll try to insert it here. It has the different depositions.

The link above is expired. Here are direct links to the documents:
Affidavid of Bruce Anderson
Statement of Evelyn Scalise
Statement of Joe Scalise
3 EBTs of Charles Hackett
2 Transcripts of Thomas Canning
Transcript of Justin Canning
Transcript of Caroline Hackett
Transcript of Charles Serota
Affidavid of Barbara Brennan
Transcript of Barbara Hackett
Transcript of Charles Hackett, Jr
Transcript of Joseph Brewer
Transcript of Michale Pak
Transcript of Mari Gilbert

John Ray Synopsis and Analysis
Opposition to Motion to Dismiss

 

[Mr.Dandy]

Here is a box from a thread a long time ago. I'll try to insert it here. It has the different depositions.

Thanks!

 

[Mr.Dandy]

I have a big question. Did any of the LISK or potential LISK victims know each other?

 

[snooptroop88]

I have a big question. Did any of the LISK or potential LISK victims know each other?

Peaches and her baby would be the obvious connection, but I know there's been speculation at some points (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Asian Doe was someone that accompanied one of the female victims.

And I know Melissa Barthelemy was supposedly a very good friend of murder victim Rita Tangredi's daughter. Bittrolff has been convicted for the murder of Rita Tangredi. But RH is charged now with Sandra Costilla, and it seemed to be implied before that the killer of Sandra Costilla was the same person that murdered Rita Tangredi and Colleen McNamee.

 

[CuriousCricket]

Peaches and her baby would be the obvious connection, but I know there's been speculation at some points (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Asian Doe was someone that accompanied one of the female victims.

And I know Melissa Barthelemy was supposedly a very good friend of murder victim Rita Tangredi's daughter. Bittrolff has been convicted for the murder of Rita Tangredi. But RH is charged now with Sandra Costilla, and it seemed to be implied before that the killer of Sandra Costilla was the same person that murdered Rita Tangredi and Colleen McNamee.

It interests me that the killer called and taunted the family/sister of Melissa Barthelemy more than the others. I vaguely recall someone using the word that the killer/caller was "obsessed" with MB, causing me to wonder and speculate it may have been the connection between MB and the daughter of RT. Pure speculation and musing on my part, of course.

 

[Mr.Dandy]

Peaches and her baby would be the obvious connection, but I know there's been speculation at some points (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Asian Doe was someone that accompanied one of the female victims.

And I know Melissa Barthelemy was supposedly a very good friend of murder victim Rita Tangredi's daughter. Bittrolff has been convicted for the murder of Rita Tangredi. But RH is charged now with Sandra Costilla, and it seemed to be implied before that the killer of Sandra Costilla was the same person that murdered Rita Tangredi and Colleen McNamee.

Peaches and her baby would be the obvious connection, but I know there's been speculation at some points (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Asian Doe was someone that accompanied one of the female victims.

And I know Melissa Barthelemy was supposedly a very good friend of murder victim Rita Tangredi's daughter. Bittrolff has been convicted for the murder of Rita Tangredi. But RH is charged now with Sandra Costilla, and it seemed to be implied before that the killer of Sandra Costilla was the same person that murdered Rita Tangredi and Colleen McNamee.

Mary Murphy was the one who said Rita Tangredi’s daughter was friends with Melissa Barthelemy. She claimed one of her fans wrote in about it. I cannot find any news articles about it. I do believe that’s significant and law enforcement definitely would so I don’t understand why it’s only come up in the Mary Murphy articles.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

…I

 

[Mr.Dandy]

…I

?

 

[WINDSOR]

I have a big question. Did any of the LISK or potential LISK victims know each other?

I do not know for sure.
I believe the sex work industry is rather insular and localized. I am sure the Pimps and Procurers are aware of each other in a given community. With advertising and agencies quite common, likely the workers/providers are also aware of each other and the clientele. Workers may often regularly frequent certain venues, where they come into contact with each other.
So on the balance of probability, some knew likely each other.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Peaches and her baby would be the obvious connection, but I know there's been speculation at some points (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Asian Doe was someone that accompanied one of the female victims.

And I know Melissa Barthelemy was supposedly a very good friend of murder victim Rita Tangredi's daughter. Bittrolff has been convicted for the murder of Rita Tangredi. But RH is charged now with Sandra Costilla, and it seemed to be implied before that the killer of Sandra Costilla was the same person that murdered Rita Tangredi and Colleen McNamee.

Yes @snooptroop88 and part of me (my speculation only)….. wonders whether officials investigating this would rather not tug too hard to unravel this all. In other words, if one is already convicted for something …… why go and plow that ground again. I hope that is not the case.

And IMO I am thankful that Mr. Ray has been involved and is pushing this as much as he has been with SG’s family. Sometimes it is hard to contemplate that this case and even Rex H LISK would have gotten to this point without Mr. Ray or Mr. Harrison. MOO

 

[Mr.Dandy]

@snooptroop88 so I’ve looked into Rita Tangredi’s daughter and I don’t believe she exists. That is, she has a son, not a daughter. So no daughter to become friends with. Apparently this originated with Mary Murphy writing an article about a reader that wrote in and said it. I’ve searched all over to make this a fact because that’s a pretty big deal. I can’t do it. Mary Murphy is the originator and this isn’t the first time I’ve run across one of her stories that I can’t back up.