Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

[WINDSOR]

No one involved in the first or 2nd "autopsy" said any such thing as "showed a hole in her neck". Her remains were skeletal.
An attorney is hardly qualified to speak on or interpret conditions of skeletal remains.

After all these years, no one with any type of qualifications has stepped forward to contradict John Ray's assertions on this matter. I think therefore John Ray's statement on this matter has to be considered accurate.

In my opinion the hole in the neck, could be the result of a puncture or a stab with a sharp object. A potential cause of death, and more likely than the hypothermia theory.

BTW, Arguing about a witnesses' qualifications, is an old legal trick. When the facts cannot be disputed, dispute the witnesses.

MOO

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

After all these years, no one with any type of qualifications has stepped forward to contradict John Ray's assertions on this matter. I think therefore John Ray's statement on this matter has to be considered accurate.

In my opinion the hole in the neck, could be the result of a puncture or a stab with a sharp object. A potential cause of death, and more likely than the hypothermia theory.

BTW, Arguing about a witnesses' qualifications, is an old legal trick. When the facts cannot be disputed, dispute the witnesses.

MOO

Attorney Ray is not a witness so there is no legal trick here. He would never be called as an expert to testify about forensic pathology. There was no "neck", the remains were skeletal, there was no hole in the neck described by an actual forensic pathologist.

 

[Warwick7]

After all these years, no one with any type of qualifications has stepped forward to contradict John Ray's assertions on this matter. I think therefore John Ray's statement on this matter has to be considered accurate.

In my opinion the hole in the neck, could be the result of a puncture or a stab with a sharp object. A potential cause of death, and more likely than the hypothermia theory.

BTW, Arguing about a witnesses' qualifications, is an old legal trick. When the facts cannot be disputed, dispute the witnesses.

MOO

Kudos on the witness comment!

As for Ray, he is a witness. If this ever goes to trial he will testify to being with Baden, what he saw, what they discussed and their conclusions etc...

Because a witness is a person who saw, heard or may information about a defendant. Both the defense and the prosecutor can call witnesses to testify or tell what they know about the situation. Basic Witness 101.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

As for Ray, he is a witness. If this ever goes to trial he will testify to being with Baden, what he saw, what they discussed and their conclusions etc...

Because a witness is a person who saw, heard or may information about a defendant. Both the defense and the prosecutor can call witnesses to testify or tell what they know about the situation. Basic Witness 101.

As a member of LE for almost 3 decades, I have spent a lot of time in court, have taken thousands of witness statements and been to many trials. Ray is not a witness for anything to do with the causes and/or manner of death and can't testify to anything he discussed with Baden, it's all hearsay and he cannot qualify himself to interpret anything to do with the autopsy report or photos of bones. Rules of evidence and testimony, including hearsay, are not my opinions, they are facts.

 

[INfisherman]

Respectfully to all,

From the autopsy reports which Furgus linked above (p39). Is that a hole in a bone from the neck?

 

[Mr.Dandy]

Perhaps not the style of any he is accused of -- at this time. Sandra Costilla is also different.

"chasing after a terrified prostitute running through the marshland in the dark" That was an extreme situation that perhaps called for extreme measures. Plus, we don't know she ran into the marshland, do we? SG's remains weren't found for a year and a half. I don't see any way of knowing when her body went into the marsh. RH was an avid hunter. I don't claim to know what happened to SG, but I don't rule RH out.

RH seems to have enjoyed scaring women. Remember the woman from his office he sent a note to on a boat in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean telling her he could find her anywhere?

Remember the affidavit from the woman who attended a swinging evening at the Heuermann home with her policeman boyfriend/partner? According to her story, as I recall, she remembers leaving a tiny, naked woman who appeared to be scared? While I'm not convinced the young woman was Karen Vergata, I think that evening and that frightened young face has probably haunted her for years. The boyfriend said the young woman was ok, Rex was playing a game with her, remember?

Yes, as you suggest, RH did like taking his time and the power of holding them captive - at least the ones he is charged with, so far. But he also appears to have enjoyed the power of instilling fear, of making people aware of his ability to find them, to play games that displayed his intelligence.

Unless RH decides to talk sometime in the distant future, I seriously doubt the extent of his crimes will ever be known. I hope his pride and need for the world to know his "accomplishments" will eventually lead to him discussing his crimes -- perhaps after a few convictions and with nothing left to lose. When there are no more games to play, will he want to hold long post-mortem discussions of the "games" and his brilliance?

Sandra Costilla was raped and tortured. Yes, it was different slightly, but if she was his first it would make sense. I was a big thinker that he had killed a ton of women… but after doing some research on the beach bodies and other unsolved plus murders in other parts of the country, I think a lot of them are not his at all. Valerie Mack is for sure, maybe Karen Vergata and maybe Carmen Vargas. There was also one I saw recently that I can’t find info about. Connie Esposito…. She had this look…. (I’d simply like to know more about her).
Something happened to SG…. Just not buying it was RH.

 

[Kudzu]

After reading the autopsy link, I didn’t realize she had surgical plates in her jaw. Wonder if there are any old Xrays of her neck associated with that surgery (or ER visit?) to see what her hyoid bone looked like back then. Would be interesting to see if there was any evidence of a cyst or lesion on her hyoid bone as was mentioned as a possibility in the autopsy.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Respectfully to all,

From the autopsy reports which Furgus linked above (p39). Is that a hole in a bone from the neck?

View attachment 547923

That's probably a blk/wht photocopy of a color photograph, I don't think a forensic pathologist would even comment on what it was without more information.

 

[Warwick7]

Respectfully to all,

From the autopsy reports which Furgus linked above (p39). Is that a hole in a bone from the neck?

View attachment 547923

Thank you! I was having a hard time posting this.

 

[snarast]

Respectfully to all,

From the autopsy reports which Furgus linked above (p39). Is that a hole in a bone from the neck?

View attachment 547923

That is awfully symmetric. IMHO

 

[INfisherman]

That's probably a blk/wht photocopy of a color photograph, I don't think a forensic pathologist would even comment on what it was without more information.

I’m not a forensic pathologist & with that photo of a probable bone, I can plainly see how a physical neck wouldn’t be necessary for a more qualified individual like a forensic pathologist to conclude a hole had somehow been made. I’m not saying in this particular case a hole was definitively found by anyone at all. Simply an example that one doesn’t need tissue (a physical neck) to determine certain wounds may have been made. Nothing more.

 

[Warwick7]

As a member of LE for almost 3 decades, I have spent a lot of time in court, have taken thousands of witness statements and been to many trials. Ray is not a witness for anything to do with the causes and/or manner of death and can't testify to anything he discussed with Baden, it's all hearsay and he cannot qualify himself to interpret anything to do with the autopsy report or photos of bones. Rules of evidence and testimony, including hearsay, are not my opinions, they are facts.

Um...ok...

 

[snarast]

Anyhow, there has got to be statistics for the condition of hyoid bones left outdoors. Seriously - why can’t LE be more data driven? This can be sorted out, and it’s worth it IMHO.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I’m not a forensic pathologist & with that photo of a probable bone, I can plainly see how a physical neck wouldn’t be necessary for a more qualified individual like a forensic pathologist to conclude a hole had somehow been made. I’m not saying in this particular case a hole was definitively found by anyone at all. Simply an example that one doesn’t need tissue (a physical neck) to determine certain wounds may have been made. Nothing more.

I fully realize that marks/damage to bone can yield information, absent tissue, to a forensic pathologist. The issue is, it was an attorney that said SG had "a hole in her neck", when we have no one else making the statement. A hole in a bone is not the same thing, but either way, Ray is certainly not qualified to interpret and/or make conclusions/statements or testify in court, about anything related to this subject, which has also been stated was doable.

 

[INfisherman]

I fully realize that marks/damage to bone can yield information, absent tissue, to a forensic pathologist. The issue is, it was an attorney that said SG had "a hole in her neck", when we have no one else making the statement. A hole in a bone is not the same thing, but either way, Ray is certainly not qualified to interpret and/or make conclusions/statements or testify in court, about anything related to this subject, which has also been stated was doable.

I didn’t state anything related to who said what or who can testify. Again, the sole intent & was simply showing an example where a "neck" isn’t needed to determine if a wound is present using skeletal remains.

I don’t even recall quoting you - it simply was a random post so not sure why you’re repeating yourself to me. I’m not debating anything here at all & following the conversation just fine.

 

[Mr.Dandy]

After reading the autopsy link, I didn’t realize she had surgical plates in her jaw. Wonder if there are any old Xrays of her neck associated with that surgery (or ER visit?) to see what her hyoid bone looked like back then. Would be interesting to see if there was any evidence of a cyst or lesion on her hyoid bone as was mentioned as a possibility in the autopsy.

That would be very interesting.

 

[snooptroop88]

That would be very interesting.

Totally agreed, there are a lot of unanswered important questions here, which is why I'm wondering how this came to be "drowning," "uh, exposure?" well "something, something-- natural," "yeah, we're just not sure." Why is this not an active murder investigation? Isn't there talk of the police chief at the time smoking crack? This looks like a series of decisions in line with that. Seriously.

 

[Mr.Dandy]

Totally agreed, there are a lot of unanswered important questions here, which is why I'm wondering how this came to be "drowning," "uh, exposure?" well "something, something-- natural," "yeah, we're just not sure." Why is this not an active murder investigation? Isn't there talk of the police chief at the time smoking crack? This looks like a series of decisions in line with that. Seriously.

Her mom, I think, was the only one really pushing for the truth, and she’s dead.John Ray, for whatever he’s worth, is just the lawyer. He won’t do anything unless he’s paid to. I don’t know about her other sister.

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

Anyhow, there has got to be statistics for the condition of hyoid bones left outdoors. Seriously - why can’t LE be more data driven? This can be sorted out, and it’s worth it IMHO.

I agree! I was only able to find a little bit of research in the time I had available and so far it appears that the thyroid cartilage followed by the the hyoid bone are the most commonly structures to be fractured due to manual strangulation, though finding evidence of such fractures on hyoid bones are still rare overall, mainly when it comes to kids and young adults, their absence does not rule out the possibility that manual strangulation occurred.

Additionally when skeletal remains are discovered it is often difficult to find or recover the corresponding hyoid bones, which are considered “free-floating” in the human body, along with them.

Furthermore, the greater horns of the hyoid bones are the most likely sections of the hyoid structure to be fractured. However, in the case of Shannan Gilbert the greater horns of the the hyoid bones were unfortunately not able to recovered with rest of her remains. Likely this may have resulted in part due to the greater cornu not fusing yet with the hyoid body, which on average occurs at age 25, according to the NIH.

Anthropological analysis of trauma in throat bone and cartilage: A review - PMC

In their analysis of recovered human remains, forensic anthropologists encounter structures of the throat (hyoid bone, thyroid cartilage/bone, cricoid cartilage/bone) that may present evidence of trauma. The recent published literature provides ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Hyoid Bone Fracture: Associated With Head and Neck Trauma—A Rare Case Report - PMC

Fractures of hyoid bone resulting from trauma other than strangulation are very rare; hyoid bone fracture associated with panfacial trauma are even rarer. They occur more frequently in young individuals, and in men more than in women [1]. We report ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That is awfully symmetric. IMHO

I agree. I wonder if perhaps that is why the Suffolk County medical examiner considered the finding a possible result of a thyglossal duct cyst, or other medical pathology, since on x-ray and CT they often appear uncomplicated, homogenous, paramedics, smooth and round and are both associated closely to the hyoid bone and are the most common cause of congenital neck masses. It’s possible that a person can live their whole lives not knowing they have one unless these cysts became infected which could lead to symptoms like dysphasia, pain or discomfort, swelling or the noticeable of development of a lump on the midline of their neck.

https://radiopaedia.org/articles/thyroglossal-duct-cyst#nav_radiographic-features

The Radiology Assistant : Anatomy and Pathology

staging.radiologyassistant.nl

JMO/JMT

 

[snarast]

Totally agreed, there are a lot of unanswered important questions here, which is why I'm wondering how this came to be "drowning," "uh, exposure?" well "something, something-- natural," "yeah, we're just not sure." Why is this not an active murder investigation? Isn't there talk of the police chief at the time smoking crack? This looks like a series of decisions in line with that. Seriously.

Yep, those puffs aren’t exactly known for enhancing the capacity for logical thinking.

That could be why they went to the closest place last in their search for SG - he/they simply couldn’t reason and nobody dared contradicting him (Burke).

I hear SC cops have good salaries….personally I can’t say it would be worth it during the Burke era…..ugh

IMHO