Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

[Warwick7]

I agree with you. Her circumstances are so very bizarre. I definitely don’t think she drowned.

Early on I wasn't sure. But after reading all those depositions, moo, she definitely didn't drown.

 

[Mr.Dandy]

Early on I wasn't sure. But after reading all those depositions, moo, she definitely didn't drown.

I never knew she was so close to the main road. I mean, if it was dark, I could see her not knowing where she was….but it was damn near sunrise. That alone throws up red flags.

 

[snooptroop88]

I never knew she was so close to the main road. I mean, if it was dark, I could see her not knowing where she was….but it was damn near sunrise. That alone throws up red flags.

Totally, totally agreed.

I know Lost Girls isn't LE. But if LE's telling me she uh... drowned. Oh, okay, now LE actually finds the poor woman's body. Wait, no, she... had an accident... Umm... Yeah, we're not sure (and we lost her jacket, whoops!) but it's NOT murder. Yeah, hypothermia!

If that's the explanation I'm getting, I'm all in for Lost Girls.

 

[Mr.Dandy]

Right?

 

[CuriousCricket]

I never knew she was so close to the main road. I mean, if it was dark, I could see her not knowing where she was….but it was damn near sunrise. That alone throws up red flags.

Am I remembering correctly that there was some discussion that she could perhaps see traffic and was attempting to get to the road? However, wasn't it disclosed that there was a fence so that even if SG had managed to navigate the marsh she still could not have reached the Parkway? Is that anyone else's recall?

 

[snooptroop88]

Am I remembering correctly that there was some discussion that she could perhaps see traffic and was attempting to get to the road? However, wasn't it disclosed that there was a fence so that even if SG had managed to navigate the marsh she still could not have reached the Parkway? Is that anyone else's recall?

CBS News says she was only 100 yards off Ocean Parkway. I haven't seen anything about a fence, but looking.

Murder or accident: How did Shannan Gilbert die?

The search for a missing escort leads to the discovery of more bodies -- is there a serial killer on Long Island?

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Warwick7]

During the 911 call about a half a dozen times she asks if "this" was all a set up. She knew what was going on.

This is heard during 911 call:
SG: You're being sarcastic.
Pak: About what?
SG: About this.. you were part of this all
along.

 

[Mr.Dandy]

Am I remembering correctly that there was some discussion that she could perhaps see traffic and was attempting to get to the road? However, wasn't it disclosed that there was a fence so that even if SG had managed to navigate the marsh she still could not have reached the Parkway? Is that anyone else's recall?

Since I read the book then watched the first couple episodes of the killing season, I’m not quite sure where this came from(I think the book), but LE said that if it wasn’t for everything that had occurred, it would have appeared she was dumped like the rest, due to her close proximity to the roadway.

 

[Sillybilly]

Am I remembering correctly that there was some discussion that she could perhaps see traffic and was attempting to get to the road? However, wasn't it disclosed that there was a fence so that even if SG had managed to navigate the marsh she still could not have reached the Parkway? Is that anyone else's recall?

There is no fence along Ocean Parkway in proximity to where her body was located. Not the precise location, but to give an idea of the Parkway in that area, this is Ocean Parkway heading east. Her body would have been in the general area located off to the right in the image below.

Shannan's body was located within that brownish marshy looking area north of Larboard Court and east of Anchor Way in this image. (Sorry that I am not proficient at all the markers our skilled mapping members are, or I would draw a nice circle or something as a better indicator )

Oak Beach · Babylon, NY

Babylon, NY

www.google.ca

My recollection is that she was found in the northern 1/3 section of that marshy area, pretty much directly north of where Hatch Way St intersects with Larboard Court . Doing a Streetview along Ocean Parkway in that area, the shrubbery probably would have blocked her view of the highway as there was a slight elevation from where her body was located up to the Parkway.

 

[CuriousCricket]

There is no fence along Ocean Parkway in proximity to where her body was located. Not the precise location, but to give an idea of the Parkway in that area, this is Ocean Parkway heading east. Her body would have been in the general area located off to the right in the image below.

View attachment 554705

Shannan's body was located within that brownish marshy looking area north of Larboard Court and east of Anchor Way in this image. (Sorry that I am not proficient at all the markers our skilled mapping members are, or I would draw a nice circle or something as a better indicator )

Oak Beach · Babylon, NY

Babylon, NY

www.google.ca

My recollection is that she was found in the northern 1/3 section of that marshy area, pretty much directly north of where Hatch Way St intersects with Larboard Court . Doing a Streetview along Ocean Parkway in that area, the shrubbery probably would have blocked her view of the highway as there was a slight elevation from where her body was located up to the Parkway.

Thank you for the clarification. I know better than to do anything from memory anymore, but very old habits keep rearing their ugly heads.

 

[Mr.Dandy]

Thank you for the clarification. I know better than to do anything from memory anymore, but very old habits keep rearing their ugly heads.

I saved a couple pictures too when I was reading up on her case. One is from the time when she was found and the other was from the most recent google earth. You can also see the proximity to the oak beach community.

 

[bricker]

I'm not sure what happened to Shannan. I don't think anyone can look at the publicly available facts and give an authoritative answer. Anyone who wholeheartedly states that she was murdered or not murdered is basing their opinion on emotion, not evidence....
I agree 100%.

The second paragraph contradicts the first tho, but I think you mean those are your opinions in SG being a victim, so I totally get it. Nothing would surprise me either way, we def don't have any info to be sure either way IMO

My apologies. I should have explained why it was pretty obvious (at least in my eyes) that Shannan wasn't murdered by the same guy.

Firstly, the "coincidences" weren't that strong. Her proximity to the other victims was often overstated. Many tabloids made it seem as though she was found next to the other girls. In reality, she was found about 4-5 miles east. Sex workers are often victims of violence. The fact that she advertised on Craigslist didn't really mean much either. By 2010, almost every escort was advertising on Craigslist and Backpage.

LISK contacted his victims using burner phones. Shannan was contacted by a john who used his personal phone to schedule an outcall at his private residence.

LISK specifically targeted girls who weren't accompanied by pimps, drivers, or other working girls. Shannan, on the other hand, was in the company of a driver.

LISK always picked the girls up in relatively discreet places so that he could personally drive them back to his home. This gave him complete control over the situation. Shannan was driven to the client's residence by her own driver.

LISK preferred quick, roadside drop-offs. He would pull over, dump the body, and then drive away. This lowered the chances of him being spotted. Shannan was found in a section of a large marsh that did not have easy roadside access.

LISK usually removed his victims' clothes and personal belongings to reduce the chances of trace evidence being found on them (that didnt work out too well in the end, but that was the logic). Shannan's belongings were found in the marsh.

LISK was a sadist who liked to spend time with his victims. Killing Shannan in a marsh would not satisfy his urges. It would be a high risk crime for very little reward.

LISK dumped two victims at Ocean Parkway in the months following Shannan's disappearance. If he was aware that a woman had caused a huge ruckus in Oak Beach before calling 911 and going missing, I don't think that he would have continued to use the same dump site. He was a relatively cautious creature, so he would have factored in the worst possible scenario.

If Shannan was murdered, then the odds point to another offender.

 

[bricker]

My apologies. I should have explained why it was pretty obvious (at least in my eyes) that Shannan wasn't murdered by the same guy.

Firstly, the "coincidences" weren't that strong. Her proximity to the other victims was often overstated. Many tabloids made it seem as though she was found next to the other girls. In reality, she was found about 4-5 miles east. Sex workers are often victims of violence. The fact that she advertised on Craigslist didn't really mean much either. By 2010, almost every escort was advertising on Craigslist and Backpage.

LISK contacted his victims using burner phones. Shannan was contacted by a john who used his personal phone to schedule an outcall at his private residence.

LISK specifically targeted girls who weren't accompanied by pimps, drivers, or other working girls. Shannan, on the other hand, was in the company of a driver.

LISK always picked the girls up in relatively discreet places so that he could personally drive them back to his home. This gave him complete control over the situation. Shannan was driven to the client's residence by her own driver.

LISK preferred quick, roadside drop-offs. He would pull over, dump the body, and then drive away. This lowered the chances of him being spotted. Shannan was found in a section of a large marsh that did not have easy roadside access.

LISK usually removed his victims' clothes and personal belongings to reduce the chances of trace evidence being found on them (that didnt work out too well in the end, but that was the logic). Shannan's belongings were found in the marsh.

LISK was a sadist who liked to spend time with his victims. Killing Shannan in a marsh would not satisfy his urges. It would be a high risk crime for very little reward.

LISK dumped two victims at Ocean Parkway in the months following Shannan's disappearance. If he was aware that a woman had caused a huge ruckus in Oak Beach before calling 911 and going missing, I don't think that he would have continued to use the same dump site. He was a relatively cautious creature, so he would have factored in the worst possible scenario.

If Shannan was murdered, then the odds point to another offender.

Just to add:

Heuermann probably didn't learn about Shannan and the Oak Beach incident until after the bodies were found. What's poetic is that Shannan was the one person he couldn't plan for. If she hadn't gone missing that night, his dump site would have likely remained hidden until the walkway/cycle lane was added in 2018.

And that would be eight more years of victims...

So I still consider Shannan to be the unwilling hero who lifted the lid on this guy.

 

[snooptroop88]

My apologies. I should have explained why it was pretty obvious (at least in my eyes) that Shannan wasn't murdered by the same guy.

Firstly, the "coincidences" weren't that strong. Her proximity to the other victims was often overstated. Many tabloids made it seem as though she was found next to the other girls. In reality, she was found about 4-5 miles east. Sex workers are often victims of violence. The fact that she advertised on Craigslist didn't really mean much either. By 2010, almost every escort was advertising on Craigslist and Backpage.

LISK contacted his victims using burner phones. Shannan was contacted by a john who used his personal phone to schedule an outcall at his private residence.

LISK specifically targeted girls who weren't accompanied by pimps, drivers, or other working girls. Shannan, on the other hand, was in the company of a driver.

LISK always picked the girls up in relatively discreet places so that he could personally drive them back to his home. This gave him complete control over the situation. Shannan was driven to the client's residence by her own driver.

LISK preferred quick, roadside drop-offs. He would pull over, dump the body, and then drive away. This lowered the chances of him being spotted. Shannan was found in a section of a large marsh that did not have easy roadside access.

LISK usually removed his victims' clothes and personal belongings to reduce the chances of trace evidence being found on them (that didnt work out too well in the end, but that was the logic). Shannan's belongings were found in the marsh.

LISK was a sadist who liked to spend time with his victims. Killing Shannan in a marsh would not satisfy his urges. It would be a high risk crime for very little reward.

LISK dumped two victims at Ocean Parkway in the months following Shannan's disappearance. If he was aware that a woman had caused a huge ruckus in Oak Beach before calling 911 and going missing, I don't think that he would have continued to use the same dump site. He was a relatively cautious creature, so he would have factored in the worst possible scenario.

If Shannan was murdered, then the odds point to another offender.

I totally understand your point on this, and I think they're good points, but I do think the connections and coincidences are extremely relevant. On the four to five miles of distance issue, the remains of Peaches and Karen Vergata were five to seven miles west (sources vary) of Gilgo Beach. In a New York Times 2011 article, I see them noting these sets of remains were two-three miles apart. The span across Ocean Parkway where known victims are located is (from what I can ascertain from sources) about 10 miles. And RH has been charged for a murder victim found all the way over in North Sea; he has left remains of known victims all the way over in Manorville; and LE also discovered remains of a known Ocean Parkway victim in Fire Island. So far with the cases we know about, he did use burner phones. That does not mean he only used burner phones. And again, so far with the cases we know of, he took victims alone, not accompanied by others (such as drivers). That does not mean, however, he always adhered to this practice and viewed it as a prerequisite to his murders, and indeed, LE themselves recognized this, wondering at various points if Asian Doe hadn't been a companion to one of the other victims. And by the time the murderer would have had Shannan Gilbert, her driver was not present. RH did not always require discreet places and complete privacy. He murdered Amber Costello despite the presence of a witness. He simply doesn't "always" do anything, quite frankly. Sometimes he used burlap, other times plastic. Sometimes, a Rubbermaid container. Sometimes he dismembered victims, sometimes he did not. Sometimes he posed a victim, in most cases we're aware of, he did not. His dropoffs were probably not all that quick, LE noted LISK would have been plagued with outbreaks of poison ivy from trudging through brambles. He didn't always use victim phones to contact friends and relatives. He only "sometimes" did so. He's profoundly sadistic and enjoys his sick games, that does not mean he in every instance required them or had the opportunity to engage in them. Agreed he loves complete control, but he clearly has a variety of means that he employs to acquire it ("I told you I could find you anywhere," as he noted to the coworker he tracked to a cruise ship for her vacation.) He's a slick, cunning, manipulative chameleon, and there's no way I'd rule him out as a suspect in the case of Shannan Gilbert, which in my mind was anything but an accident.

Gilgo Beach murders | Here's a timeline of the investigation

Here is a timeline of the Gilgo Beach killings, how the investigation unfolded and what ultimately led to Rex Heuermann's arrest.

6abc.com

More Remains Are Found on Long Island, This Time in Nassau (Published 2011)

Hours after the search was expanded to Nassau County, partial human remains were discovered at two sites a few miles from where eight bodies had been found.

www.nytimes.com

 

[james.coff]

My apologies. I should have explained why it was pretty obvious (at least in my eyes) that Shannan wasn't murdered by the same guy.

Firstly, the "coincidences" weren't that strong. Her proximity to the other victims was often overstated. Many tabloids made it seem as though she was found next to the other girls. In reality, she was found about 4-5 miles east. Sex workers are often victims of violence. The fact that she advertised on Craigslist didn't really mean much either. By 2010, almost every escort was advertising on Craigslist and Backpage.

LISK contacted his victims using burner phones. Shannan was contacted by a john who used his personal phone to schedule an outcall at his private residence.

LISK specifically targeted girls who weren't accompanied by pimps, drivers, or other working girls. Shannan, on the other hand, was in the company of a driver.

LISK always picked the girls up in relatively discreet places so that he could personally drive them back to his home. This gave him complete control over the situation. Shannan was driven to the client's residence by her own driver.

LISK preferred quick, roadside drop-offs. He would pull over, dump the body, and then drive away. This lowered the chances of him being spotted. Shannan was found in a section of a large marsh that did not have easy roadside access.

LISK usually removed his victims' clothes and personal belongings to reduce the chances of trace evidence being found on them (that didnt work out too well in the end, but that was the logic). Shannan's belongings were found in the marsh.

LISK was a sadist who liked to spend time with his victims. Killing Shannan in a marsh would not satisfy his urges. It would be a high risk crime for very little reward.

LISK dumped two victims at Ocean Parkway in the months following Shannan's disappearance. If he was aware that a woman had caused a huge ruckus in Oak Beach before calling 911 and going missing, I don't think that he would have continued to use the same dump site. He was a relatively cautious creature, so he would have factored in the worst possible scenario.

If Shannan was murdered, then the odds point to another offender.

For six of murders we know Rex committed so far, most of those points you made fit. For Sandra Costilla, none of that fits. LISK is a term that can be used for multiple men, so I am not sure if you were talking about all of the long island serial killers or referring to Rex Heuermann solely, but IMHO, I don't think your reasoning is valid since we have no clue how many more victims he has, but if you think he only killed those who he has been charged with thus far, I see why you have that opinion.

I truly believe it when I say, nothing would surprise me. There is simply too much we are not aware of unless we killed them or know who did and have been given info

 

[james.coff]

There is no fence along Ocean Parkway in proximity to where her body was located. Not the precise location, but to give an idea of the Parkway in that area, this is Ocean Parkway heading east. Her body would have been in the general area located off to the right in the image below.

View attachment 554705

Shannan's body was located within that brownish marshy looking area north of Larboard Court and east of Anchor Way in this image. (Sorry that I am not proficient at all the markers our skilled mapping members are, or I would draw a nice circle or something as a better indicator )

Oak Beach · Babylon, NY

Babylon, NY

www.google.ca

My recollection is that she was found in the northern 1/3 section of that marshy area, pretty much directly north of where Hatch Way St intersects with Larboard Court . Doing a Streetview along Ocean Parkway in that area, the shrubbery probably would have blocked her view of the highway as there was a slight elevation from where her body was located up to the Parkway.

You are correct and thank you for addressing this with such precise information. I had been working on something very similar and I didn't want to miss anything, so you made my day!!!!

 

[james.coff]

I totally understand your point on this, and I think they're good points, but I do think the connections and coincidences are extremely relevant. On the four to five miles of distance issue, the remains of Peaches and Karen Vergata were five to seven miles west (sources vary) of Gilgo Beach. In a New York Times 2011 article, I see them noting these sets of remains were two-three miles apart. The span across Ocean Parkway where known victims are located is (from what I can ascertain from sources) about 10 miles. And RH has been charged for a murder victim found all the way over in North Sea; he has left remains of known victims all the way over in Manorville; and LE also discovered remains of a known Ocean Parkway victim in Fire Island. So far with the cases we know about, he did use burner phones. That does not mean he only used burner phones. And again, so far with the cases we know of, he took victims alone, not accompanied by others (such as drivers). That does not mean, however, he always adhered to this practice and viewed it as a prerequisite to his murders, and indeed, LE themselves recognized this, wondering at various points if Asian Doe hadn't been a companion to one of the other victims. And by the time the murderer would have had Shannan Gilbert, her driver was not present. RH did not always require discreet places and complete privacy. He murdered Amber Costello despite the presence of a witness. He simply doesn't "always" do anything, quite frankly. Sometimes he used burlap, other times plastic. Sometimes, a Rubbermaid container. Sometimes he dismembered victims, sometimes he did not. Sometimes he posed a victim, in most cases we're aware of, he did not. His dropoffs were probably not all that quick, LE noted LISK would have been plagued with outbreaks of poison ivy from trudging through brambles. He didn't always use victim phones to contact friends and relatives. He only "sometimes" did so. He's profoundly sadistic and enjoys his sick games, that does not mean he in every instance required them or had the opportunity to engage in them. Agreed he loves complete control, but he clearly has a variety of means that he employs to acquire it ("I told you I could find you anywhere," as he noted to the coworker he tracked to a cruise ship for her vacation.) He's a slick, cunning, manipulative chameleon, and there's no way I'd rule him out as a suspect in the case of Shannan Gilbert, which in my mind was anything but an accident.

Gilgo Beach murders | Here's a timeline of the investigation

Here is a timeline of the Gilgo Beach killings, how the investigation unfolded and what ultimately led to Rex Heuermann's arrest.

6abc.com

More Remains Are Found on Long Island, This Time in Nassau (Published 2011)

Hours after the search was expanded to Nassau County, partial human remains were discovered at two sites a few miles from where eight bodies had been found.

www.nytimes.com

EXCELLENT thoughts!!!

 

[Warwick7]

My apologies. I should have explained why it was pretty obvious (at least in my eyes) that Shannan wasn't murdered by the same guy.

Firstly, the "coincidences" weren't that strong. Her proximity to the other victims was often overstated. Many tabloids made it seem as though she was found next to the other girls. In reality, she was found about 4-5 miles east. Sex workers are often victims of violence. The fact that she advertised on Craigslist didn't really mean much either. By 2010, almost every escort was advertising on Craigslist and Backpage.

LISK contacted his victims using burner phones. Shannan was contacted by a john who used his personal phone to schedule an outcall at his private residence.

LISK specifically targeted girls who weren't accompanied by pimps, drivers, or other working girls. Shannan, on the other hand, was in the company of a driver.

LISK always picked the girls up in relatively discreet places so that he could personally drive them back to his home. This gave him complete control over the situation. Shannan was driven to the client's residence by her own driver.

LISK preferred quick, roadside drop-offs. He would pull over, dump the body, and then drive away. This lowered the chances of him being spotted. Shannan was found in a section of a large marsh that did not have easy roadside access.

LISK usually removed his victims' clothes and personal belongings to reduce the chances of trace evidence being found on them (that didnt work out too well in the end, but that was the logic). Shannan's belongings were found in the marsh.

LISK was a sadist who liked to spend time with his victims. Killing Shannan in a marsh would not satisfy his urges. It would be a high risk crime for very little reward.

LISK dumped two victims at Ocean Parkway in the months following Shannan's disappearance. If he was aware that a woman had caused a huge ruckus in Oak Beach before calling 911 and going missing, I don't think that he would have continued to use the same dump site. He was a relatively cautious creature, so he would have factored in the worst possible scenario.

If Shannan was murdered, then the odds point to another offender.

Excellent!!!

 

[snooptroop88]

Also, jewelry was left with Peaches and Baby Peaches (which I've always found incredibly strange considering I don't think-- ?-- anything was left with any of the other known victims), so the murderer at least sometimes left personal items with remains. Asian Doe's clothing was recovered, too. And in terms of distance, some of Peaches' remains were found all the way over at Hempstead Lake State Park, and multiple items were located in that Rubbermaid container.

Also, what about the belt with Maureen? This killer seems random and in many respects, completely unpredictable and at times pretty much counterintuitive. I just personally wouldn't rule out RH for SG, but MOO.

 

[Mr.Dandy]

Also, jewelry was left with Peaches and Baby Peaches (which I've always found incredibly strange considering I don't think-- ?-- anything was left with any of the other known victims), so the murderer at least sometimes left personal items with remains. Asian Doe's clothing was recovered, too. And in terms of distance, some of Peaches' remains were found all the way over at Hempstead Lake State Park, and multiple items were located in that Rubbermaid container.

Also, what about the belt with Maureen? This killer seems random and in many respects, completely unpredictable and at times pretty much counterintuitive. I just personally wouldn't rule out RH for SG, but MOO.

Exact reasons I don’t think he killed peaches… but I’ll admit, I’m more open to it than I used to be.