Prior Vaginal Trauma

[LinasK]

Folks might do well to listen to this one. She knows a thing or two about familial sexual abuse and signs being ignored.

:hand:I think we have a few wannabe defense attorneys on this thread who really believe we're gullible enough to believe that JonBenet's vaginal injuries were due to bubble baths, bed-wetting accidents, horseback riding, or dancing/gymnastics. We also have many female posters here whom, (without describing their own anatomy) can personally tell you: the above activities absolutely are not enough to cause the type of injuries JonBenet suffered!!!:doh:

 

[BBB167893]

From the Files of the National Enquiror: Tom Haney was discussing JonBenet's vaginal rashes, the use of Desitin, etc...than he asks Patsy about a series of phone calls...

Tom Haney: You made three calls to Dr. Beuf's office on December 7th...Three in one day. One at 6:28pm, one at 6:50pm, and one at 6:59pm. Do you recall that day?

Patsy Ramsey: To the office or his home?

TH: To his office.

PR: No, I don't remember.

TH: Would that have been something like this, do you remember?

PR: Seems like I would have remembered, you know.

Makes you wonder if JonBenet reported some type of abuse to Patsy which caused her panic enough to want to talk to Dr. Beuf.

Haney talking to her about abuse is a gold mine in general.

 

[UKGuy]

I expect there is a difference between "sexually molested" and "masturbated".

Unless there is evidence of rough or painful molestation, beyond "digital penetration", I do not believe anyone can say whether JBR masturbated herself using her finger(s) or if another person performed the act on her.

ChuckMaureen,

The question is not whether JonBenet masturbated, she may have done, she may not. She may have damaged herself internally riding her new bike on Christmas day. The question to ask: is there evidence of acute and chronic molestation?

Steve Thomas describes a wooden splinter as being found inside JonBenet.
JonBenet Ramsey Autopsy Report, excerpt

Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular
congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. The
smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the
vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with
underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red
blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is
birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate
is not seen.

Detective Harmer demonstrates that there is chronic damage to JonBenet internally.

And JonBenet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation Chapt. 32. states:-

Detective Harmer presented a surprising anatomy lesson on vaginas to a meeting attended primarly for men. She showed a picture of the vagina of a normal healthy six-year-old girl and contrasted it with a photo of the vagina of jonBenet. Even to the uninformed the visual difference was apparent, and Harmer cited the experts who said there was evidence of chronic sexual abuse although the detectives referred to it only as 'prior vaginal trauma.'

and we have Coroner Meyer remarking:
http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

In the context of a sexually motivated homicide the evidence suggests prior sexual molestation.

.

 

[MurriFlower]

ChuckMaureen,

The question is not whether JonBenet masturbated, she may have done, she may not. She may have damaged herself internally riding her new bike on Christmas day. The question to ask: is there evidence of acute and chronic molestation?

Steve Thomas describes a wooden splinter as being found inside JonBenet.
JonBenet Ramsey Autopsy Report, excerpt


Detective Harmer demonstrates that there is chronic damage to JonBenet internally.

And JonBenet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation Chapt. 32. states:-


and we have Coroner Meyer remarking:
http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm


In the context of a sexually motivated homicide the evidence suggests prior sexual molestation.

.

Was there any evidence that the befringent material was a wooden splinter from the stick?

Wouldn't you think that if she was assaulted with the stick, that was later used to wind the strangulation cord around, then it would have had some blood on it?

Or was there another stick?

 

[UKGuy]

Was there any evidence that the befringent material was a wooden splinter from the stick?

Wouldn't you think that if she was assaulted with the stick, that was later used to wind the strangulation cord around, then it would have had some blood on it?

Or was there another stick?

MurriFlower,

Steve Thomas' description is alike Coroner Meyer's remarks regarding sexual contact e.g. explicit. Nobody has rebutted him on this matter.

Yes there may be another stick. The stick used in the garrote may not have been the only one used. If this was the case then it will be sealed. Also there is the missing piece from the broken paintbrush which some have speculated was left inside JonBenet?

.

 

[BBB167893]

Wouldn't you think that if she was assaulted with the stick, that was later used to wind the strangulation cord around, then it would have had some blood on it?

Sorry to butt in.

Not necessarily. Since the acute injury was limited and JB didn't bleed very much, it's possible the stick was jabbed in and withdrawn too quickly to get blood on the middle part.

 

[MurriFlower]

MurriFlower,

Steve Thomas' description is alike Coroner Meyer's remarks regarding sexual contact e.g. explicit. Nobody has rebutted him on this matter.

ST's was just a former investigator who believed RDI then wrote a book to make some money out of it. This is not a reliable source IMO.

Yes there may be another stick. The stick used in the garrote may not have been the only one used. If this was the case then it will be sealed. Also there is the missing piece from the broken paintbrush which some have speculated was left inside JonBenet?

Well, I posted on the Cords, Knots and Strangulation Devices thread the estimation that there was about 2" of stick missing, so it's hardly a "splinter".

 

[my_tee_mouse]

I'm starting to feel that we have already discussed all this in a thread not too long ago. That thread started having way too much info posted and this one will too if we continue to go in this direction. It was said then and should be said again, six year old girls do not masturbate themselves with their fingers inserted. Will other female posters please chime in here and back me up on this?

In general six-year-olds do not masturbate themselves with their fingers inserted. In fact, this activity is considered abnormal sexual behavior for this age and would indicate a level of sexual understanding garnered through unhealthy means such as sexual abuse.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm starting to feel that we have already discussed all this in a thread not too long ago. That thread started having way too much info posted and this one will too if we continue to go in this direction. It was said then and should be said again, six year old girls do not masturbate themselves with their fingers inserted. Will other female posters please chime in here and back me up on this?

Consider yourself backed up! JB did not masturbate to the point of BLEEDING. No one would. To suggest that this murdered, sexually assaulted little girl masturbated herself as she was being killed is one of the most vile "opinions" I have ever read on this forum.

 

[MurriFlower]

Sorry to butt in.

Not necessarily. Since the acute injury was limited and JB didn't bleed very much, it's possible the stick was jabbed in and withdrawn too quickly to get blood on the middle part.

We'll differ here, cause I'd expect a stick penetration for either sexual reasons or even to cover up prior abuse (as RDI asserts) wouldn't be just a quick jab. Even if it was relatively brief, that is an area that is sensitive, thin walled, easily damaged, (as compared with one's outer skin), so I would think forensics would find blood and/or tissue on the jagged stick, if it actually happened that way. Do we have any evidence of this? Or is it another case of the "urine stain in the hallway ergo place of death" falacy?

 

[DeeDee249]

Much ado over nothing. The photos aren't genuine.

And your source for this is?

 

[BBB167893]

We'll differ here, cause I'd expect a stick penetration for either sexual reasons or even to cover up prior abuse (as RDI asserts) wouldn't be just a quick jab.

Why wouldn't you? I'm not saying I would, but I can see why it would be. I just want to know.

Even if it was relatively brief, that is an area that is sensitive, thin walled, easily damaged, (as compared with one's outer skin), so I would think forensics would find blood and/or tissue on the jagged stick, if it actually happened that way.

The jagged stick, yes. But I don't think the stick was broken until after the jabbing.

Do we have any evidence of this? Or is it another case of the "urine stain in the hallway ergo place of death" fallacy?

I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

And your source for this is?

Do I have this straight? RDI pulls photos out of their back pocket, clearly not publicly released material, obviously gained by illegitimate means, and you're asking me for my source?!?

That just tops everything I've read here.

The photos are inadmissable. They're photos of someone else.

 

[MurriFlower]

Why wouldn't you? I'm not saying I would, but I can see why it would be. I just want to know.

Lets not get too 'yucky' here, but it's not going to be like sucking your own finger. No one is going to be able to cleanly insert a stick into a childs vagina, which causes bleeding enough to require wiping away, without getting blood on the stick. This was done (according to RDI) to cover up the prior abuse by a parent/sibling/grandparent? So, it would be required to cause damage in order to achieve this, no?

The jagged stick, yes. But I don't think the stick was broken until after the jabbing.

Ah yes, and the piece of stick with the blood/tissue on it that was inserted was either sent away with BR in his backpack or was taken by PP in the golf bag! Ha! So convenient.....

I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific.

Ok, do we have any evidence at all that any part of the stick was inserted in her vagina?

All the coroner commented on was digital penetration and a sliver of befringent material (that may or may not have been wood), and in any case, could have been on the glove of the IDI who broke the stick and also inserted his finger.

 

[BBB167893]

Do I have this straight? RDI pulls photos out of their back pocket, clearly not publicly released material, obviously gained by illegitimate means, and you're asking me for my source?!?

Damn right, we are. Any proof that they were illegitimate or phony will do.

The photos are inadmissable. They're photos of someone else.

Proof, HOTYH.

 

[DeeDee249]

Do I have this straight? RDI pulls photos out of their back pocket, clearly not publicly released material, obviously gained by illegitimate means, and you're asking me for my source?!?

That just tops everything I've read here.

The photos are inadmissable. They're photos of someone else.

There were photos of JB as well. They were compared to other photos.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Damn right, we are. Any proof that they were illegitimate or phony will do.



Proof, HOTYH.

No, you're making the assertions, therfore you need to prove they are photos of JBR. Where did they come from, how do you know, and why did they have them? How did they arrive at them by legal means?

Who's word did you take? BPD?

 

[BBB167893]

Lets not get too 'yucky' here,

I think we may have missed that window, Murri.

No one is going to be able to cleanly insert a stick into a child's vagina, which causes bleeding enough to require wiping away, without getting blood on the stick.

Who said it was cleanly inserted? besides, if they wiped it off JB, doesn't it follow that they would wipe it off the stick as well?

This was done (according to RDI) to cover up the prior abuse by a parent/sibling/grandparent?

That's how I see it, yes.

So, it would be required to cause damage in order to achieve this, no?

Yes, but that leads into another question: how successful was it?

It also helps to remember that if had been a real intruder, the damage to JB's vagina would have been far more severe. That's not just my opinion, either.

Ah yes, and the piece of stick with the blood/tissue on it that was inserted was either sent away with BR in his backpack or was taken by PP in the golf bag!

There are any number of ways.

Ha! So convenient.....

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it, Murri. There was a time when I did. I learned my lesson.

Ok, do we have any evidence at all that any part of the stick was inserted in her vagina?

Perhaps. Dr. McCann said that the acute injury had clear edges, indicating something harder than a fingertip.

All the coroner commented on was digital penetration and a sliver of befringent material (that may or may not have been wood), and in any case, could have been on the glove of the IDI who broke the stick and also inserted his finger.

That's often been postulated, but it goes back to what McCann said, among other things.

 

[MurriFlower]

I think we may have missed that window, Murri.



Who said it was cleanly inserted? besides, if they wiped it off JB, doesn't it follow that they would wipe it off the stick as well?



That's how I see it, yes.



Yes, but that leads into another question: how successful was it?

It also helps to remember that if had been a real intruder, the damage to JB's vagina would have been far more severe. That's not just my opinion, either.



There are any number of ways.



I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it, Murri. There was a time when I did. I learned my lesson.



Perhaps. Dr. McCann said that the acute injury had clear edges, indicating something harder than a fingertip.



That's often been postulated, but it goes back to what McCann said, among other things.

So, no, there is no evidence any stick was ever inserted in her vagina. Thought so.

 

[DeeDee249]

Lets not get too 'yucky' here, but it's not going to be like sucking your own finger. No one is going to be able to cleanly insert a stick into a childs vagina, which causes bleeding enough to require wiping away, without getting blood on the stick. This was done (according to RDI) to cover up the prior abuse by a parent/sibling/grandparent? So, it would be required to cause damage in order to achieve this, no?



Ah yes, and the piece of stick with the blood/tissue on it that was inserted was either sent away with BR in his backpack or was taken by PP in the golf bag! Ha! So convenient.....



Ok, do we have any evidence at all that any part of the stick was inserted in her vagina?

All the coroner commented on was digital penetration and a sliver of befringent material (that may or may not have been wood), and in any case, could have been on the glove of the IDI who broke the stick and also inserted his finger.

I have to say that I also feel that if the broken paintbrush handle was jabbed into her, there would have been more severe injuries. We all know she bled, the coroner noted her own blood, identified when the swabs of her thighs and pubic area were analyzed, as having been wiped away. So something made her bleed, but I would have expected to see more severe internal injuries.
The wood/cellulose found inside JB could have been splinters carried in on the finger (which was on the hand that broke the brush) that was used for the digital penetration. I feel the brush was broken before being inserted, if that happened. If the brush was inserted to hide sexual abuse, then it was inserted after she was bashed. The lack of more severe injuries may be because she was dying/unconscious and lying motionless and since she wasn't moving around as she would have been if she were being penetrated with the handle as a sexual act in and of itself, the injuries were not so severe. Just one of the many puzzles in this case, one of the things I can't say for sure if or how it happened.