Question for both IDI and RDI

[MurriFlower]

I've seen that many times. What does that have to do with Patsy's sister being allowed to go into the house unsupervised (the cops waited outside) wearing a police jacket (so as not to "attract attention") and remove large quantities of items from the house (which were not searched)?

That page lists items removed by LE with search warrants. BTW, there was more than one golf bag, and JR asked Aunt P "did you remember to get my golf bag?"

I look at the squad cars Patsy's sister filled with so-called "things for the funeral" which included a golf bag???? that was right outside the wineceller door when the crime took place.

So are you saying here that the BPD in their search warrant, took the WRONG set of golf clubs? That is they left the ones that were near the crime scene and took another set?

 

[MurriFlower]

I've seen that many times. What does that have to do with Patsy's sister being allowed to go into the house unsupervised (the cops waited outside) wearing a police jacket (so as not to "attract attention") and remove large quantities of items from the house (which were not searched)?

That page lists items removed by LE with search warrants. BTW, there was more than one golf bag, and JR asked Aunt P "did you remember to get my golf bag?"

"Ex-detective: Girl's aunt took evidence
By Marilyn Robinson
Denver Post Staff Writer

Feb. 17 - Breaking his long-standing silence, a former Boulder detective Tuesday accused JonBenet Ramsey's aunt of taking potential evidence from the Ramsey home the day after the girl was found dead.

Steve Thomas, appearing on ABC television's "Good Morning America,'' said one of JonBenet's aunts left the crime scene with clothes containers, zippered bags and stuffed animals. "So I think there's some questions there,'' he said.

Not so, said Pam Paugh, Patsy Ramsey's sister, speaking from her Georgia home on Tuesday.

"First of all, he wasn't there. Second of all, I went in with a listing of things,'' Paugh said, referring to a list of items she wanted to retrieve. "Every place I went, there was a detective. He was with me. He never left my side. He inspected everything. He selected the bags. He packed everything. I didn't pack anything.''

Paugh said she took clothing, pictures of JonBenet, and some stuffed animals and dolls. She also took a medal JonBenet had won in a talent contest and some beauty pageant banners.

But she didn't take a teddy bear, dressed like Santa Claus, sitting on a bed in JonBeneÚt's room, Paugh said. The district attorney's office last month launched a search for the manufacturer and the retail outlets that sold similar bears.

"I saw the teddy bear on the bed,'' that day she retrieved the items, Paugh said. "I hadn't seen it before. But I didn't touch it, and I didn't take it.''

The former investigator's remarks brought a response from Ramsey attorney Pat Furman.

"Pam Paugh went to the home under police supervision and took some personal items with the complete knowledge and permission of the police,'' Furman said. "If Mr. Thomas is trying to suggest she sneaked evidence out without them knowing, it's ridiculous.''

Thomas couldn't be reached for comment. He reportedly was en route back to CColorado after his TV appearance in New York..
"

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I guess it matters more to some to just be able to convince people that the R's are guilty, than it does to actually convey truth. Play on ignorance, spin out of context, and maximize public effect. Its like a smear campaign.

 

[MurriFlower]

I guess it matters more to some to just be able to convince people that the R's are guilty, than it does to actually convey truth. Play on ignorance, spin out of context, and maximize public effect. Its like a smear campaign.

Their arguments are becoming "rediculouser and rediculouser".

 

[BBB167893]

I guess it matters more to some to just be able to convince people that the R's are guilty, than it does to actually convey truth. Play on ignorance, spin out of context, and maximize public effect. Its like a smear campaign.

Do not waste our time with that, HOTYH.

There's nothing ridiculous about pointing out that Pam should not have been in there in the first place.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Do not waste our time with that, HOTYH.

Free press

 

[DeeDee249]

So are you saying here that the BPD in their search warrant, took the WRONG set of golf clubs? That is they left the ones that were near the crime scene and took another set?

I don't know whether i'd classify it as right or wrong. But there was a golf bag shown right outside the wineceller door and another golf bag in the area. It can be seen in that photo (available on ACR) leaning back against the wall by the wineceller door frame and the Christmas decoration hung on the wall. One was taken into evidence, one left behind (and presumably retrieved by Aunt P.)

 

[MurriFlower]

I don't know whether i'd classify it as right or wrong. But there was a golf bag shown right outside the wineceller door and another golf bag in the area. It can be seen in that photo (available on ACR) leaning back against the wall by the wineceller door frame and the Christmas decoration hung on the wall. One was taken into evidence, one left behind (and presumably retrieved by Aunt P.)

Well, I think you did classify it as the 'wrong' set if you were saying these were the ones immediately adjacent to the crime scene.

Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
I look at the squad cars Patsy's sister filled with so-called "things for the funeral" which included a golf bag???? that was right outside the wineceller door when the crime took place.

If there was another set, you would need to first establish this and then that PP actually took them, and then why BPD, who were with PP would have allowed her to take something that was evidence in the killing. Then if you could do all that, you might then tell us if they weren't evidence or involved/adjacent to the murder scene, why would it be a problem for PP to take them?

 

[DeeDee249]

Well, I think you did classify it as the 'wrong' set if you were saying these were the ones immediately adjacent to the crime scene.

If there was another set, you would need to first establish this and then that PP actually took them, and then why BPD, who were with PP would have allowed her to take something that was evidence in the killing. Then if you could do all that, you might then tell us if they weren't evidence or involved/adjacent to the murder scene, why would it be a problem for PP to take them?

I absolutely did not classify the golf bag as the wrong one and I challenge you to show where I said those words. YOU made a comment about Aunt P taking the "wrong" bag and I said I didn't know whether it was the "wrong" bag, but it was another bag. Both bags are in the same room, just outside the door to the wineceller. We don't know which one LE took, but I'd bet it was the one which is easily visible and it was likely taken to see if any of the golf clubs in it could have been the murder weapon. I don't need to establish that there were two bags because the photo establishes this for me. Both bags are seen in the photo. PP was asked by JR to get his gold bag, which she reportedly did. It was a problem for anyone other than LE to take ANYTHING from a crime scene, especially so soon after the crime and especially a crime scene which involved the brutal murder of one of the children living there. THAT's why it was a problem.
From some accounts of LE there, Patsy's sister was not supervised for much of her trip through the house. Not everything she took was examined by LE.

 

[MurriFlower]

I absolutely did not classify the golf bag as the wrong one and I challenge you to show where I said those words. YOU made a comment about Aunt P taking the "wrong" bag and I said I didn't know whether it was the "wrong" bag, but it was another bag. Both bags are in the same room, just outside the door to the wineceller. We don't know which one LE took, but I'd bet it was the one which is easily visible and it was likely taken to see if any of the golf clubs in it could have been the murder weapon. I don't need to establish that there were two bags because the photo establishes this for me. Both bags are seen in the photo. PP was asked by JR to get his gold bag, which she reportedly did. It was a problem for anyone other than LE to take ANYTHING from a crime scene, especially so soon after the crime and especially a crime scene which involved the brutal murder of one of the children living there. THAT's why it was a problem.
From some accounts of LE there, Patsy's sister was not supervised for much of her trip through the house. Not everything she took was examined by LE.

So I can see the one on the right with the golf clubs in it. Are you saying the brown object on the left is also a golf bag? Is that what you're referring to? No clubs in it, and something written on it in like gold writing?

I thought the wine cellar was through the door in the centre of the photograph? Ok well if it was a problem for her to take it then why did the Cops allow it? If the cops were too stupid to make sure she didn't touch anything she shouldn't have that was evidence, then you can hardly blame her for doing it, if she was permitted to. You make it sound like a big conspiracy, she sneaked in disguised as a cop when no one was looking and stole all the evidence!!

 

[DeeDee249]

So I can see the one on the right with the golf clubs in it. Are you saying the brown object on the left is also a golf bag? Is that what you're referring to? No clubs in it, and something written on it in like gold writing?

I thought the wine cellar was through the door in the centre of the photograph? Ok well if it was a problem for her to take it then why did the Cops allow it? If the cops were too stupid to make sure she didn't touch anything she shouldn't have that was evidence, then you can hardly blame her for doing it, if she was permitted to. You make it sound like a big conspiracy, she sneaked in disguised as a cop when no one was looking and stole all the evidence!!

Yes, it's the one you mention, against the wall to the left, under the Christmas decoration that hangs on the wall- it is brown with gold lettering. That is the second golf bag.
The cops WERE stupid. She didn't exactly have to sneak in- but the police gave her a police jacket to put on so it would look like no one BUT police has access to the house. This shows the police knew they shouldn't have allowed anyone in the house. And the police that were there had no clue as to what should and should not have been allowed to be taken from the house. I am sure they didn't give a second thought to that gold bag. This was only a day or two after the murder. The crime scene findings, including what happened to the tape roll, cord, remaining panties, etc. was not even a consideration at the time she was allowed in the house. Those questions came along as the investigation unfolded. There were a LOT of things the police allowed that they shouldn't have.

 

[MurriFlower]

Yes, it's the one you mention, against the wall to the left, under the Christmas decoration that hangs on the wall- it is brown with gold lettering. That is the second golf bag.
The cops WERE stupid. She didn't exactly have to sneak in- but the police gave her a police jacket to put on so it would look like no one BUT police has access to the house. This shows the police knew they shouldn't have allowed anyone in the house. And the police that were there had no clue as to what should and should not have been allowed to be taken from the house. I am sure they didn't give a second thought to that gold bag. This was only a day or two after the murder. The crime scene findings, including what happened to the tape roll, cord, remaining panties, etc. was not even a consideration at the time she was allowed in the house. Those questions came along as the investigation unfolded. There were a LOT of things the police allowed that they shouldn't have.

Ok, well it was a purple bag apparently with John Ramsey written in gold. What was the purpose of her taking it do you think? As it didn't contain any golf clubs. Was it simply to put incriminating evidence against the R's into it? Or were you suggesting that JR was just interested in having a game of golf and wanted his 'personalised' golf bag? Either way, it looks bad for them doesn't it?

The one thing we haven't established is how you know that PP actually took this?

 

[DeeDee249]

Ok, well it was a purple bag apparently with John Ramsey written in gold. What was the purpose of her taking it do you think? As it didn't contain any golf clubs. Was it simply to put incriminating evidence against the R's into it? Or were you suggesting that JR was just interested in having a game of golf and wanted his 'personalised' golf bag? Either way, it looks bad for them doesn't it?

The one thing we haven't established is how you know that PP actually took this?

Well, JR reportedly asked her "did you get my golf bag"? He had made a point of asking for it. Obviously I wasn't there to see her take it and she wasn't required to tell LE what she took. If she did, I haven't seen any evidence of it.
We also don't know JR's motivation for asking for the golf bag, because we are not privy to his personal conversation with his sister-in-law. But as with much of this case, we can speculate. Had he wanted several incriminating items brought out of the house before LE found them, of course he could have asked PP to stuff whatever he wanted into the bag.
JR was heading to Atlanta for JB's funeral. While the January weather was more favorable for golf in Atlanta than in Boulder, I would think he'd have had other things on his mind (like his daughter's funeral and helping local LE finding her killer).
Asking for the golf bag at such a time does look bad, regardless of his reasons, and frankly, I can't think of a reason for him to have asked for it that isn't suspicious to me.

How do you know it didn't contain any golf clubs? Based on that photo, you can't see the whole top of the bag. Clubs can be seen in the more obvious bag, but that doesn't mean there were not other clubs available.

 

[MurriFlower]

Well, JR reportedly asked her "did you get my golf bag"? He had made a point of asking for it. Obviously I wasn't there to see her take it and she wasn't required to tell LE what she took. If she did, I haven't seen any evidence of it.
We also don't know JR's motivation for asking for the golf bag, because we are not privy to his personal conversation with his sister-in-law. But as with much of this case, we can speculate. Had he wanted several incriminating items brought out of the house before LE found them, of course he could have asked PP to stuff whatever he wanted into the bag.
JR was heading to Atlanta for JB's funeral. While the January weather was more favorable for golf in Atlanta than in Boulder, I would think he'd have had other things on his mind (like his daughter's funeral and helping local LE finding her killer).
Asking for the golf bag at such a time does look bad, regardless of his reasons, and frankly, I can't think of a reason for him to have asked for it that isn't suspicious to me.

How do you know it didn't contain any golf clubs? Based on that photo, you can't see the whole top of the bag. Clubs can be seen in the more obvious bag, but that doesn't mean there were not other clubs available.

Ah, so the entire premise for PP taking the golf bag and of course stuffing it with incriminating evidence was a report of an unknown person of an overheard conversation by some other unknown person (who may have been partially deaf for all we know) asking 'did you get my golf bag'. Perhaps he said 'don't look so sad' or 'Nedra is a silly old bag', of course, we'll never know, but will assume from now until eternity that he asked if she got his golf bag, because we can discuss the weather in Atlanta and how heartless of him to be thinking about playing golf instead of burying his daughter or catching her killer. Yes, and that leads to the conclusion that there is no reason to ask for the golf bag that isn't suspicious. Good!

 

[WHITEFANG]

Well, JR reportedly asked her "did you get my golf bag"? He had made a point of asking for it. Obviously I wasn't there to see her take it and she wasn't required to tell LE what she took. If she did, I haven't seen any evidence of it.
We also don't know JR's motivation for asking for the golf bag, because we are not privy to his personal conversation with his sister-in-law. But as with much of this case, we can speculate. Had he wanted several incriminating items brought out of the house before LE found them, of course he could have asked PP to stuff whatever he wanted into the bag.
JR was heading to Atlanta for JB's funeral. While the January weather was more favorable for golf in Atlanta than in Boulder, I would think he'd have had other things on his mind (like his daughter's funeral and helping local LE finding her killer).
Asking for the golf bag at such a time does look bad, regardless of his reasons, and frankly, I can't think of a reason for him to have asked for it that isn't suspicious to me.

How do you know it didn't contain any golf clubs? Based on that photo, you can't see the whole top of the bag. Clubs can be seen in the more obvious bag, but that doesn't mean there were not other clubs available.

They strangled Joni. They took her lifeless and battered body, looped a cord around her neck, tugged hard on it, to avoid prison, and he wouldn't get rid of the incriminating evidence? Or, P did all that to make her a superstar, but they wouldn't think about and make sure to discard the evidence that they were guilty?

LT overcame his crack addiction golfing, or so he said. Who knows? But, for some, walking around golfing could be the best way to handle incomprehensible grief. Everyone is different. Even if he killed his own daughter, as a loving father J might still need a way to handle his emotions and golf might help.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I believe LHP said that her son-in-law??? helped. So she must have older children or stepkids.

As far as what it is that makes me feel certain the parents knew what happened that night....that is difficult to pin down to absolutes. Each of us here has a "gut feeling" about this case, and even if we have more than one theory (as I do) we still have at least some things we feel sure about. I guess, for me, it is more certain that the parents know who did this and how it happened than it is that they did it themselves. It isn't any one thing that makes me feel this way, more like lots of things that I can't explain away any other way.
For one, you have to realize that I believe Patsy wrote the note. That part is not a variable, to me. I base it on MY opinions of the handwriting samples as well as similarities in Patsy's writing style (based on what I've seen). While many IDI feel the length and rambling tones of the note indicate someone other than Patsy (or JR), I feel just the opposite. I feel the length of the note, as well as trying to cover as many "options" as they can indicate it was the parents for sure. They tried to implicate not only the stated SFF, (by outright mentioning an SFF and by threatening what would be expected behavior by a terrorist group). The note also mentions JR's bonus, and I can't see an SFF knowing about that. But by the same token, and in other statements in the note, it seems to implicate a business associate, maybe an employee with a grudge. The note has the sentence "We respect your bussiness (sic) but not the country that it serves". Yet, if you look at the note itself (and this was also pointed out by people analyzed the note) the sentence originally began with "We DON'T respect your bussiness). The word "DON'T" is scratched out. This suggests to me that they were trying not to point too closely to an employee or business associate because then they may have to point too strongly and someone who would then be cleared and sue them. But this was allegedly someone who assaulted, strangled and bludgeoned and innocent little girl. Yet the tone of the note is NOT virulent but almost sarcastically patronizing "Don't try to grow a brain, John". "It's up to you now, John".
A SFF would not write a note this way, nor would an enemy of JR or his company. Besides, the note indicated there was no hatred of his company, but respect- it is the US that they hate- so why not target someone on a more national level?
If this was a real SFF or enemy the note would read more on the line of
"We got you kid, Mother****er. -Call the cops and she dies". End of note.

There are other things, too. The pineapple has long been a sticking point with me. So was lying about JB being asleep and carried in. Why lie about either of those things? They are simple, uncomplicated activities that should have no relation to this chid being kidnapped/killed. So why the lie? Well, it puts her awake and alive VERY close to the TOD, which itself is close to the arrival of the family home. For an intruder to do this, he takes a BIG risk because there is a very good chance that the parents might not actually be asleep. The scream...the pineapple snack and the quite extensive staging, all that would have had a very small window in which to be accomplished all the while under the threat of the parents hearing and walking in on it (or BR, whose room was on the same floor as JB and closer to the kitchen, too as far as hearing anything that went on). This might have necessitated killing the whole family, and if it was an SFF or a madman intruder, why not so this anyway? If it was someone targeting JR, why not kill his son, too? If it was a pedophile, why kill her at all? Take her out of the house quickly and you can assault her over and over again. If you kill her, you dump the body and think you'll never get caught.
Then there is the behavior of the parents. I can see defense attorneys telling their clients to keep quiet. That's what they are paid to do. But these clients went on national television, yet refused police interviews for months (and years). It took Patsy FOUR tries (with her own polygrapher, not the BPD)
I look at the questions LW would NOT allow Patsy to answer. That told me more than the answers she gave. I look at what the DA would NOT provide to the investigation- the phone records, the exhumation (to check to see exactly what those parallel "abrasions" were).
I look at the squad cars Patsy's sister filled with so-called "things for the funeral" which included a golf bag???? that was right outside the wineceller door when the crime took place.
It isn't just one thing. It's all of them. They know more than we have been told.
One thing- I'd LOVE for ALL the evidence in the case to be released- autopsy photos, ALL photos of the house and the party, all the interviews, everything LE knows, I want to know. Then we'll see.

This post was sooo worth repeating, I just had to copy it! :clap:

 

[joeskidbeck]

This post was sooo worth repeating, I just had to copy it! :clap:

ITA, Linda. RDI's are accused on a daily basis of being close-minded but how can IDI's read this and have logical answers for any of it? It is the epitome of "closed mindedness" to read this and claim that an intruder did it.

 

[BBB167893]

ITA, Linda. RDI's are accused on a daily basis of being close-minded but how can IDI's read this and have logical answers for any of it? It is the epitome of "closed mindedness" to read this and claim that an intruder did it.

Sort of goes back to that whole "stone in a glass house" deal, doesn't it?

 

[UKGuy]

Well, JR reportedly asked her "did you get my golf bag"? He had made a point of asking for it. Obviously I wasn't there to see her take it and she wasn't required to tell LE what she took. If she did, I haven't seen any evidence of it.
We also don't know JR's motivation for asking for the golf bag, because we are not privy to his personal conversation with his sister-in-law. But as with much of this case, we can speculate. Had he wanted several incriminating items brought out of the house before LE found them, of course he could have asked PP to stuff whatever he wanted into the bag.
JR was heading to Atlanta for JB's funeral. While the January weather was more favorable for golf in Atlanta than in Boulder, I would think he'd have had other things on his mind (like his daughter's funeral and helping local LE finding her killer).
Asking for the golf bag at such a time does look bad, regardless of his reasons, and frankly, I can't think of a reason for him to have asked for it that isn't suspicious to me.

How do you know it didn't contain any golf clubs? Based on that photo, you can't see the whole top of the bag. Clubs can be seen in the more obvious bag, but that doesn't mean there were not other clubs available.

DeeDee249,

If John asked "did you get my golf bag" the he must have some reasonable expectation that PP would have retrieved it.

Is this because the extended Ramsey family members knew that come death or disaster then we must rescue John's golf bag?

As a millionare golf-bags must rate as easily replaceable to John, so why bother with it, why not some memento of JonBenet?

Seems to me we can add PP to the conspiracy, she would be aware of what was to be removed from the house and may even have seen the evidence being trashed?

.

 

[joeskidbeck]

DeeDee249,

If John asked "did you get my golf bag" the he must have some reasonable expectation that PP would have retrieved it.

Is this because the extended Ramsey family members knew that come death or disaster then we must rescue John's golf bag?

As a millionare golf-bags must rate as easily replaceable to John, so why bother with it, why not some memento of JonBenet?

Seems to me we can add PP to the conspiracy, she would be aware of what was to be removed from the house and may even have seen the evidence being trashed?

.

PP being privy to this information helps me believe that PR (or BR) was VERY involved as I don't believe that she would be of a mind to cover for JR alone.