Question for both IDI and RDI

[BBB167893]

We don't know if the same person who wrote the note is also the DNA owner.The DA and LE were both wrong here IMO, they assumed it was ONE killer,LE cleared people because in their minds the RN is the killer

A bad assumption.

ML cleared people based on the idea that the DNA owner is the killer.

It goes deeper than that, madeleine. I've often said she would have cleared them before leaving office anyway.

 

[BBB167893]

Under assault by a national and international media feeding frenzy, some of whom were offered incentives to find (even stimulate) headline attention grabbing material, the Ramsey's did their best to handle this predatory onslaught, a Pearl Harbor like attack on their dignity and privacy, on their essence as human beings.

Fang, you know I've got nothing but love for you. But I'm REALLY not comfortable with comparing this to the deaths of American soldiers, okay?

 

[BBB167893]

The Boulder Police Deptartment failed to link the handwriting from Patsy Ramsey's exemplars to the ransom note. Period. End of story. Doesn't matter who else said what. It was over at that moment.

Well, that's funny, because Ubowski sure seemed to think there was a link. No one else would make the link because they didn't want to disagree with one of their own in court, flat-out.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Fang, you know I've got nothing but love for you. But I'm REALLY not comfortable with comparing this to the deaths of American soldiers, okay?

For what do we fight when we go to war?

In this case, they were taken by surprise; The attack on them was by stealth, without any warning. It was ferocious and they were unprepared for the devastation.

If America does not stand for the sanctity of an individuals' rights to privacy, to seek justice and a fair trial, to be free from the threat of an unreasonable search, to freedom of expression, even against the government, if we don't stand for these kinds of values, what else could be worth fighting for? Is anything more precious than these rights and freedoms?

Each day on the battlefield our brave soldiers offer all they are as living sacrifices for these ideals that we share and hold close to our hearts and that touch us on the deepest levels.

 

[DeeDee249]

For what do we fight when we go to war?

In this case, they were taken by surprise; The attack on them was by stealth, without any warning. It was ferocious and they were unprepared for the devastation.

If America does not stand for the sanctity of an individuals' rights to privacy, to seek justice and a fair trial, to be free from the threat of an unreasonable search, to freedom of expression, even against the government, if we don't stand for these kinds of values, what else could be worth fighting for? Is anything more precious than these rights and freedoms?

Each day on the battlefield our brave soldiers offer all they are as living sacrifices for these ideals that we share and hold close to our hearts and that touch us on the deepest levels.

I hope our country will ALWAYS stand for those things we all hold so dear,

But this was a murder case where a child was found dead in her own home by one of her parents. Search and seizure are not unreasonable then. And an individual's right to privacy (as far as LE is concerned) ends when someone is found dead in their home.

 

[WHITEFANG]

unfortunatly with this case i think a simple they don't match the DNA so there cleared wont work, especially if a FFDI as there is nothing to stop said faction from recruting someone who lived next door 3 streets away ect.
anyway thats IMO

Since they had no motive, passed a lie detector test and the DNA excluded them, what is it that ties them (in terms of credible evidence of guilt) to the brutal murder of their daughter? Did they have a large life insurance policy on her?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I hope our country will ALWAYS stand for those things we all hold so dear,

But this was a murder case where a child was found dead in her own home by one of her parents. Search and seizure are not unreasonable then. And an individual's right to privacy (as far as LE is concerned) ends when someone is found dead in their home.

I don't see how finding JBR in her home as opposed to, say, down the street and around the corner, adds to or subtracts from how the parents are treated. If JBR were found next door, should the police assume the parents were framing the neighbor? Or, assume the parents didn't do it?

If the police have no obvious suspects then they have to consider the parents, neighbors, friends, hired help, etc. as minor suspects as opposed to an umbrella exclusively sized to the parents. Handwriting exemplars and DNA samples from anybody and everybody.

This was a mistake on BPD's part as they had no probable cause to enable them to exclude everybody else and focus only on the parents. The fact that JBR was still in the house was meaningless. Houses have doors and windows and everything. This isn't 'murder on the orient express'.

 

[WHITEFANG]

I hope our country will ALWAYS stand for those things we all hold so dear,

But this was a murder case where a child was found dead in her own home by one of her parents. Search and seizure are not unreasonable then. And an individual's right to privacy (as far as LE is concerned) ends when someone is found dead in their home.

Yes, that's right. I will have more to add later, but yes you make a good point. Actually, that is what I was trying to say, too.

I think Supe mentioned how he disliked bullies. Me too! and I take issue with a mammoth, rich industry that can roll over people with impunity.

 

[madeleine]

I don't see how finding JBR in her home as opposed to, say, down the street and around the corner, adds to or subtracts from how the parents are treated. If JBR were found next door, should the police assume the parents were framing the neighbor? Or, assume the parents didn't do it?

If the police have no obvious suspects then they have to consider the parents, neighbors, friends, hired help, etc. as minor suspects as opposed to an umbrella exclusively sized to the parents. Handwriting exemplars and DNA samples from anybody and everybody.

This was a mistake on BPD's part as they had no probable cause to enable them to exclude everybody else and focus only on the parents. The fact that JBR was still in the house was meaningless. Houses have doors and windows and everything. This isn't 'murder on the orient express'.

:clap:

 

[slug]

Since they had no motive, passed a lie detector test and the DNA excluded them, what is it that ties them (in terms of credible evidence of guilt) to the brutal murder of their daughter? Did they have a large life insurance policy on her?

when i say someone shouldn't just be cleared by the DNA i was referring to anybody not just the family. I've been sat on the fence for ages.
motive can vary so much from one person to another there are probally 101 motives for both RDI and IDI. my reason for saying the DNA is not on it's own good enough to exclude someone is because i have often felt this was comitied by more than 1 person, so there is a possiblitly that one left evidence and another didn't.

 

[DeeDee249]

Since they had no motive, passed a lie detector test and the DNA excluded them, what is it that ties them (in terms of credible evidence of guilt) to the brutal murder of their daughter? Did they have a large life insurance policy on her?

No, I would think not. But motive really only plays a part in a premeditated murder, and that is only one classification of murder. In this case, I don't believe JB's death was intentional; it was the result of a sudden burst of uncontrollable rage OR a sudden, violent reaction to her scream. There was no motive.
There is a reason why polygraph tests are not admissible in court. The test can be manipulated (even by the one giving the test) to bypass the truth.
The Rs finally passed, after several attempts, with a polygraph expert they hired, not one provided by the BPD. According to police, though the Rs claimed otherwise, the Rs never submitted to a polygraph they administered.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't see how finding JBR in her home as opposed to, say, down the street and around the corner, adds to or subtracts from how the parents are treated. If JBR were found next door, should the police assume the parents were framing the neighbor? Or, assume the parents didn't do it?

If the police have no obvious suspects then they have to consider the parents, neighbors, friends, hired help, etc. as minor suspects as opposed to an umbrella exclusively sized to the parents. Handwriting exemplars and DNA samples from anybody and everybody.

This was a mistake on BPD's part as they had no probable cause to enable them to exclude everybody else and focus only on the parents. The fact that JBR was still in the house was meaningless. Houses have doors and windows and everything. This isn't 'murder on the orient express'.

This does not just apply to the Rs- a dead body found in anyone's home places that person under suspicion, especially if they were also in the home at the time of death. So, it follows that if she were found in a neighbor's home (and that neighbor were at home at the time she died) that neighbor would then be a suspect. The fact that she was found in her own home is not meaningless. With very few exceptions, children reported "missing" or "kidnapped" that are later found dead in their own home are usually the victims of a relative, especially when found by a relative. LE takes these statistics very seriously, and that is the reason why the FBI (who have no particular interest in local Boulder politics LE) said "You'll be finding her body". And they did.
I didn't start out suspecting the parents. In fact, when I first heard of this horrible crime in December 1996, the first thought I had was that it was a jealous pageant mom. Then I thought it may have been someone who was a guest at the parents' party a few days before, maybe someone who even hid out in the house for a few days. But that didn't make sense- with the Rs planning a 2-week vacation right after Christmas, and getting home late Christmas Day, and possibly staying up even later, I just couldn't see someone who knew the family choosing that particular night to molest or kill her. By the same token, I can't see a stranger choosing that night, either, for the same reasons. Though a stranger wouldn't have known about the vacation plans, choosing a night when virtually all parents are home with their children doesn't make sense to ME. So as I began to look closer, I found that I couldn't see it happening any other way than by the hand of a family member.
I also looked with a suspicious eye at others- Wolf, Helgoth, etc. But there was nothing to link them to the crime, including the DNA. No fibers or hairs either.

 

[Flow]

What is IDI and RDI?

I'm sorry. I just wanted to read up on the JonBenet stuff, and I am having trouble following any of the discussions on this case [and several other cases on here.] I don't have enough posts to search the forum to find the answer myself, so please pardon me and thank you in advance.

 

[DeeDee249]

What is IDI and RDI?

I'm sorry. I just wanted to read up on the JonBenet stuff, and I am having trouble following any of the discussions on this case [and several other cases on here.] I don't have enough posts to search the forum to find the answer myself, so please pardon me and thank you in advance.

IDI means people who feel an intruder did it.
RDI means people who feel one of the R family did it.
PDI means people who feel JB's mother Patsy did it.
JDI means people who feel JB's father did it.
BDI means people who feel JB's brother did it.
JAR means people who feel JB's college-age half-brother did it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

This does not just apply to the Rs- a dead body found in anyone's home places that person under suspicion, especially if they were also in the home at the time of death. So, it follows that if she were found in a neighbor's home (and that neighbor were at home at the time she died) that neighbor would then be a suspect. The fact that she was found in her own home is not meaningless. With very few exceptions, children reported "missing" or "kidnapped" that are later found dead in their own home are usually the victims of a relative, especially when found by a relative. LE takes these statistics very seriously, and that is the reason why the FBI (who have no particular interest in local Boulder politics LE) said "You'll be finding her body". And they did.
I didn't start out suspecting the parents. In fact, when I first heard of this horrible crime in December 1996, the first thought I had was that it was a jealous pageant mom. Then I thought it may have been someone who was a guest at the parents' party a few days before, maybe someone who even hid out in the house for a few days. But that didn't make sense- with the Rs planning a 2-week vacation right after Christmas, and getting home late Christmas Day, and possibly staying up even later, I just couldn't see someone who knew the family choosing that particular night to molest or kill her. By the same token, I can't see a stranger choosing that night, either, for the same reasons. Though a stranger wouldn't have known about the vacation plans, choosing a night when virtually all parents are home with their children doesn't make sense to ME. So as I began to look closer, I found that I couldn't see it happening any other way than by the hand of a family member.
I also looked with a suspicious eye at others- Wolf, Helgoth, etc. But there was nothing to link them to the crime, including the DNA. No fibers or hairs either.

The physical location of JBR, found in her own house, adds suspicion not to the parents exclusively but to everybody who had access during that time. Do you believe only the parents had access? If that were the case, then your argument would be valid. Instead, everybody had access. From hired help to relatives to neighbors to burglars to small foreign factions.

Because there was nothing to prevent unauthorized access.

If someone besides parents had access, they would tend to leave afterwards, right? Is there any evidence of unauthorized access and somebody leaving? Yes. Like missing items? Yes. Doors or windows left open? Yes. Items out of place? Yes. Items left behind that don't belong? Yes. Visual and microscopic? Yes.

 

[DeeDee249]

The physical location of JBR, found in her own house, adds suspicion not to the parents exclusively but to everybody who had access during that time. Do you believe only the parents had access? If that were the case, then your argument would be valid. Instead, everybody had access. From hired help to relatives to neighbors to burglars to small foreign factions.

Because there was nothing to prevent unauthorized access.

If someone besides parents had access, they would tend to leave afterwards, right? Is there any evidence of unauthorized access and somebody leaving? Yes. Like missing items? Yes. Doors or windows left open? Yes. Items out of place? Yes. Items left behind that don't belong? Yes. Visual and microscopic? Yes.

I understand what you are saying, but I feel that even someone with e key, someone known to the Rs, would not have taken a chance going into the house that night. Especially since those people would be more likely to know about the planned trip and any reasons why the parents might be up late preparing for it. The window to do all that was done is pretty slim.
As far as it being a stranger- well, though the Rs were known to not use their alarm, not always lock doors and they had boarded their dog with a neighbor, a stranger would not know these things. Still a pretty risky night to kidnap, feed, make garrote, strangle, bash , write the note, etc. all the while doing these things walking around inside the house.

 

[BBB167893]

For what do we fight when we go to war?

In this case, they were taken by surprise; The attack on them was by stealth, without any warning. It was ferocious and they were unprepared for the devastation.

If America does not stand for the sanctity of an individuals' rights to privacy, to seek justice and a fair trial, to be free from the threat of an unreasonable search, to freedom of expression, even against the government, if we don't stand for these kinds of values, what else could be worth fighting for? Is anything more precious than these rights and freedoms?

Each day on the battlefield our brave soldiers offer all they are as living sacrifices for these ideals that we share and hold close to our hearts and that touch us on the deepest levels.

You're GOOD!

 

[BBB167893]

Since they had no motive,

That we know of.

passed a lie detector test

PLEASE, do not waste my time with that.

and the DNA excluded them,

Wrong. The DA excluded them using that as an excuse, even when she should have known better.

what is it that ties them (in terms of credible evidence of guilt) to the brutal murder of their daughter?

How much time have you got?

 

[BBB167893]

If the police have no obvious suspects then they have to consider the parents, neighbors, friends, hired help, etc. as minor suspects as opposed to an umbrella exclusively sized to the parents. Handwriting exemplars and DNA samples from anybody and everybody.

Works for me.

This was a mistake on BPD's part as they had no probable cause to enable them to exclude everybody else and focus only on the parents.

They had more than sufficient cause.

The fact that JBR was still in the house was meaningless.

Like he**! There's these little things called statistics and perp comfort, you know.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Works for me.



They had more than sufficient cause.



Like he**! There's these little things called statistics and perp comfort, you know.

OK statistics: What is the statistic, parent vs. non-parent globally, for <10 yr old femal victim of sexual assault and strangulation murder? Let me know what you find out there.

They had more than sufficient cause.

There was no probable cause to suspect the parents any more or less than a neighbor, relative, or burglar. Statistics and perp comfort aren't probable causes.