Question

[SisterSocks]

However, Patsy not only remembered her addy in her 911 call, she gave it. Was she as distraught as she and John had tried to purport? Doubt it.

You mean to tell me--- you think Pats would have presence of mind to dial 911 and not remember her addy? This I doubt...

 

[LovelyPigeon]

I'm much more inclined to remember my address (although I can't always recall my cell phone number and have to ask my son for the number) than if a 911 operator were to ask me the last time my child bathed or when I washed her hair or what underwear she was wearing.

I would also consider the address MUCH more important to remember.

 

[Jayelles]

Three years ago, my husband had an accident when a quad bike overturned and landed on top of him. My son came screaming up to the house telling me to call an ambulance quick and I did this automatically. When the operator asked me, I simply could not remember the address and had to be prompted by others. The operator kept telling me to calm down.

I found out afterwards that this was more common than you would imagine - people in shock can forget their addresses and sometimes even their names.

As a result of my own experience in an emergency, I now have a little note beside each phone which has the telephone number and house address on it. Just in case.

 

[Imon128]

If I recall correctly, in the NE Police Files book with the police transcripts, Patsy's interviewer calls her out on the 'address' info as she volunteered it. I'll go look for that in my book. Seems Patsy was so distraught, she was on the floor, totally out of it, so to speak, yet had the wherewithal to volunteer that info in her 911 call. I'll post the words from the book when I locate it. I think what's odd about it is that Patsy was supposedly out of it, so to speak, generally at that time and continued throught the morn, yet was relatively calm at that point. I'll post it when I find it.

 

[Jayelles]

You are right - he did comment on the fact that it was unusual for people to volunteer the address. COuld you find that please?

 

[SisterSocks]

Three years ago, my husband had an accident when a quad bike overturned and landed on top of him. My son came screaming up to the house telling me to call an ambulance quick and I did this automatically. When the operator asked me, I simply could not remember the address and had to be prompted by others. The operator kept telling me to calm down.

I found out afterwards that this was more common than you would imagine - people in shock can forget their addresses and sometimes even their names.

As a result of my own experience in an emergency, I now have a little note beside each phone which has the telephone number and house address on it. Just in case.

Hi Jayelles,

Wow---- hope hubby wasn't hurt to bad.

I guess its just the difference in people.

In my end of the woods I wouldn't automatically Call 911 without the info of what was going on. Unless I had my cell phone ---then I would have ran and seen what was going on ,as I dialed....

I just can't imagine Patsy not remembering her Addy --If indeed she had presence of mind to dial 911. Ya know just difference in People and opinions.

 

[Maxi]

Whenever I've had to call an emergency number, I've given my address first even tho the operator usually asks, "What is your emergency". For some reason -- maybe a hangover from the old days -- I respond with my location. I know perfectly well that, unless I'm on a cell phone, the operator has my address faster than I can give it to her.

 

[Imon128]

From the Police Files NE book, Patsy has made it quite clear she's in a terrible state. I'd have to post several different pages to get that point across, but I think most who've read up on this case in various books, know that Patsy was supposedly a basket case, even on the floor when the cops arrived. Throwing up, etc., and her words in my aforementioned book, verify what is said to be her state. This is from the NE Police Files book, pp. 154-155:

"PR: I was nuts, he--I mean, shaking, but he was tring to--

TH: You say you were nuts?

PR: Yeah.

TH: Are you still screaming, yelling, crying?

PR: Yeah, I mean I was just in shock. You know, you know, just how did they get in, who did this, my God, what are we going to do?

TH: Now. the phone that's there, that's a fixed phone?

PR: (Nodding)

TH: Now, I have to stop you here because at my house if there is an emergency, if there is a problem and my wife is screaming and yelling and panicked, I wouldn't have her call anybody. Because they would never figure out what she is saying. And it sounds like you're in kind of an emotional state and John, he is down there, he is processing this note and he tells you to call 911?

PR: uh huh.

TH: It just seems kind of odd to me. What--

PR: I don't know whether it's odd or not, but that's what happened.

TH: Okay.

PR: I mean, you know, I had it together enough to call. And I said, 'This is Patsy Ramsey at 755 15th Street' or whatever...I think she was trying to make sure I got it out, you know.

TH: In fact, YOU GOT IT OUT PRETTY GOOD, YOU GOT OUT THE ADDRESS WHICH A LOT OF CALLERS WHO CALL THE POLICE, WHO CALL 911--

PR: --CAN'T REMEMBER THEIR NAMES.

TH: WELL, THEY DON'T GIVE THE ADDRESS. YOU SEEMED TO GIVE THE ADDRESS PRETTY QUICK. WHEN YOU CALLED, DID YOU PRACTICE THIS, DID YOU REHEARSE, DID YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO SAY? (Caps mine)

 

[popcorn]

Pasty states she opened a package of 12's and dumped them in the drawer. So who is it that came and folded them up and reinserted them into a package? The underwear fairy? Kane states there were no size 12's in that drawer period, it's quite clear the drawer's contents were emptied and seized in their entirety. It's possible there never was a package and whatever the Ramsey investigtors came up with is evidence fabricated to keep the Rameys out of jail, as was their objective, nothing about finding a killer.

 

[Jayelles]

Hi Jayelles,

Wow---- hope hubby wasn't hurt to bad.

I guess its just the difference in people.

In my end of the woods I wouldn't automatically Call 911 without the info of what was going on. Unless I had my cell phone ---then I would have ran and seen what was going on ,as I dialed....

I just can't imagine Patsy not remembering her Addy --If indeed she had presence of mind to dial 911. Ya know just difference in People and opinions.

In the end, we didn't even get an ambulance because we were living in such a rural area that it was going to be quicker to take him to hospital than it would be to wait for an ambulance. We had to take a decision about moving him. His colour was dreadful and his breathing very shallow and he kept slipping in and out of consciousness. I was convinced he had pierced his lungs or something. Airways takes first priority. So, we got the seat down in the station wagon and lifted him in carefully. Then we rushed to hospital (a 40 minute drive on single track roads). I had to talk to him the whole way. Tootise threw up all over the place, it was horrendous! What was worse was that when we got to the hospital, there was nobody there! I ran around the hospital looking for someone to come and help. I ended up in the kitchens where they were having their tea and a nurse came running then and alerted others. It is a tiny cottage hospital with about 4 wards, however, they do have an operating theatre and an emergency surgeon.

He spent a few days in hospital but he was OK. He was just very badly bruised and winded and shocked. He'd been on the beach and the shingle had saved him from serious injury. I won't let him go on a quad bike ever again!

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Popcorn you are inaccurate in what you claim PR said in the interview. Here is what she said about the package:

84
1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.

If there is transcript to support your claim that PR said she opened the package, dumped them out, etc, please post it.

Edit to add that Kane was not there to see what was in the drawer or what was taken from it. Kane was also under no legal obligation to either tell the truth or be accurate in his questioning & statements.

Look at the inventory listing the panties and who collected which pairs on what days and see for yourself.

 

[Shylock]

No, it's not possible that it's an old pair. The package was recovered by Ramsey investigators after the house was turned back over to the Ramseys by BPD. The Ramseys never went back into the house, but private investigators did.

Lin Wood turned the package over to the Boulder DA last year (or was it 2002?).

If the panties were previously worn and washed there would never have been this silly suggestion that some male worker in the Asian manufactoring plant left his DNA via a sneeze over the panty fabric.

Edit to add that the BPD collected used underwear from the house in case there was incriminating evidence on any of it.

LP, I believe you're correct, that the panties were never worn before. But how do you explain the package being missing from where Patsy says she put them (and JB took them from)? If they were in the drawer as Pats claimed it wouldn't have been necessary for the Ramsey investigators to turn them over to the BPD, they would have had them along with the 15 other pairs.

 

[popcorn]

20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.

Patsy admitts here in to deciding, that is partcipating, in the opening of the package. She trips herself up because she never remembers JonBenet wearing the 12's or laundrying them but then how does she know the package had been opened unless she was in on it?

 

[LovelyPigeon]

No, no, no. Patsy says the package had been opened, not that she opened it. She says elsewhere that the package was opened by JonBenét. No where does she say that she or anyone else *dumped the panties into the drawer*.

Patsy's attitude seemed to be *oh, well, the package is opened, go ahead and wear them* No big deal.

 

[Shylock]

20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,

Are these southern hillbilly women in the habit of buying underwear for other people's kids? I think that's pretty rude and I would wonder what the motive was if someone gave my child underwear. Sorta like giving someone mouthwash or deodorant for a present.
And you mean to tell me that in the entire store Patsy couldn't find a nicer gift to buy the girl other than panties?

 

[Toltec]

Are these southern hillbilly women in the habit of buying underwear for other people's kids? I think that's pretty rude and I would wonder what the motive was if someone gave my child underwear. Sorta like giving someone mouthwash or deodorant for a present.
And you mean to tell me that in the entire store Patsy couldn't find a nicer gift to buy the girl other than panties?

I'm no hillbilly Shylock but I too buy underwear for my nieces only if they are especially pretty or they have a cartoon character that my nieces like. Women are that way, at least I am. I do not believe that Patsy intended to give her niece underwear as a birthday or christmas present.

 

[popcorn]

"If the panties were previously worn and washed there would never have been this silly suggestion that some male worker in the Asian manufactoring plant left his DNA via a sneeze over the panty fabric."

You are mistaken as biolgical deposits leave a protein stain that remains through repeated washings. That is a viable option for why the foreign DNA is degraded, it was subject to detergent.

you go on to say

"Edit to add that the BPD collected used underwear from the house in case there was incriminating evidence on any of it."

which proves this fact.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Lovely Piegon: If the panties were previously worn and washed there would never have been this silly suggestion that some male worker in the Asian manufactoring plant left his DNA via a sneeze over the panty fabric.

Ned: I wonder why you state the suggestion that some male worker in Asia left his DNA is silly yet it's not silly that some intruder did?

The degraded state of the DNA suggests to any trained Scientist, like myself, that it had been their sometime, you further confirm this belief by confirming that the underpants were NEW and still packaged. Therefore it is QUITE possible that DNA from anyone handling the underpants prior to them being placed on JB could have left traces of their DNA, including an Asian factory worker. More so, since they would have handled the underpants directly.
Less likely for FRESHLY deposited DNA to degrade in a household of controled enviornment in such sort time under circumstances where the body was never removed from the house. Further and intensive study regarding the DNA in this case, and confirmation of controled samples conducted by the investigators further confirm the possibility that in fact a male factor worker could have very well been the source of the DNA. It's much more plausable than the intruder as the source.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

LP: My theory is that the DNA isn't degraded.

The testing of the 2nd spot of blood apparently was able to recover at least 10 markers of DNA sufficient to submit to CODIS.

Ned: Any DNA that doesn't yeild complete set of markers LP is degraded. You don't drip blood and only drip part of your DNA. It doesn't work that way. As Blood, saliva, flakes of skin, semen are deposited, it's time and the elements that start to brake down the strands of DNA. Over time they become degraded, break down and eventually fade away altogether. That's why after years sometimes you can still lift DNA off licked stamps and cigarette butts and sometimes you can't. DNA was certainly deposited there, but it just depends on the elements that it was exposed to which determine the rate it degrades. The DNA in this case was not freshly deposited. Couldn't have been. There is much made about this DNA, and my guess is that an inexperienced police department and DA's office like that of yahoo Boulder, Colorado who are about 10 years behind the rest of civilization, are too stupid to know that an experienced Forensic Scientist could explain this in a court of law, or perhaps they think that Boulder citizens are too behind the times to even comprehend the basic understanding of DNA.

 

[Toth]

bacteria such as from the urinary tract will attack the dna in a blood stain from the intruder's having instinctively touched a scratch that JonBenet inflicted on her attacker. The unfortunate delay in discovery of the corpse caused by the BPD's utter incompetence is the reason for any 'degraded' state. I suspect the second blood spot was higher up in the panties and not saturated with urine and therefore remained relatively free of bacteria.

Note: There has been references to 'wiped down' does anyone know if a product such as HandiWipes contains agents that would attack dna?