Question

[Nedthan Johns]

LP: I don't think a jury would believe that some innocent transfer caused a man's DNA to be mixed with JonBenét's blood in her panties

Ned: This is another misconception, that because the blood is mixed with JonBenets this somehow indicates to people that it had to be fresh. Not so, let me explain a little how this works. When DNA testing is conducted on a sample, the sample is cut from the underpants. The sample is then lifted off the cloth using a solution which then lossens the blood that is then extracted from the cloth. To the naked eye, all one could be able to determine is that there is what appears to be blood. There would be no way to know if it was from one or more sources. But once removed through the wash used to extract the blood, any other source of DNA, say even a pin prick of dried old blood, perhaps even not noticable to the naked eye, now becomes loosened, which mixes with the fresh deposited blood of JonBenet Ramsey. Need not have anything to do with the crime, and much more likely got there long before it. Coincidence that it was deposited in the same place JB bleed? Depends on the sample of how much of the cloth they tested. Fact is, once the sample is taken it's almost impossible to determine WHEN the foreign DNA got there. I think a better determination of how the blood could have gotten there is to do more investigation on how the actual panites are produced and just how much they are handled before they are packaged.
http://www.epicentre.com/pdftechlit/105pl102.pdf

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Jay: What does logic say about the DNA. Why should her killer's DNA degrade within 12 hours when her own does not?

NEd: Good girl and well said.

Here is what we know about the panties folks. And here is where the intruder theory goes right out the window.

First of all my daughter is too old now, but has anyone here tried on a pair of size 12 panties on a 6 year old? JB appears to be an awfully tiny 6 year old. My bet is that they would fall around her ankles and I think someone should find that out. Secondly by Patsy's own admission, she did NOT dress JB in those oversized panties that day, also admits JB never wet the bed that night, rulling out that they were somehow changed into after wetting the bed, and considering JB's age and having to go to a Christmas party, Patsy most likely helped her get dressed. Patsy also admits, she BOUGHT the panties, therefore eliminating any chance that some intruder brought them in. Patsy also admits she never opened the package. The panties were ON JB at the time of her death, NOT placed on her after. Note the autopsy report: The underpants were stained with urine and drops of blood. Possible that blood could have leaked out after death, but the bladder automatically empties at the time of death, which indicates someone did not re-dress her after death, but re-dressed her after she arrived home from the Whites, which makes the Ramsey's liars. It's too bad no tests were run or conducted (still probably could be) on the amount of urine it took to stain the long johns and underwear JB was found in. The way it's described in the autopsy leads me to believe in the time frame noted, arriving home at 9:30 and dead before midnight, the fact that Burke claimes she was awake and walked into the home carring presents, indicate to me that JB did not wet the bed that night, and the urine stained underpants and long johns was a result from the bladder releasing at the time of death, indicitive of being strangled from the back in a semi upright position, since the stains are to the front and theigh area. So this indicates that 1.) the pants were to big to be worn by JB, 2) Patsy stated she didn't dress her in them that day, 3) That the Ramsey's claim JB was asleep when they arrived home one can ONLY come to the conclusion in order to make the intruder theory fly that the intruder BEFORE murdering JonBenet HAD to have re-dressed her in the oversized panties. For what reason and how did he know where to find her panties, or why would he go to the trouble of opening up a fresh pack? What joy did the intruder get in redressing JB in oversized panties? How does this possibly make sense?

The oversized panties like the pineapple, was a terrible oversight by Patsy, by admitting she had nothing to do with either one, implicates her completely.

The noted disturbed pullups from the cubboard and oversized underpants indicate to me that they were purchased for the reason to be worn OVER the pullups, and that either JB was asked to get dressed for bed that night and put them on without the pullups or that during the time of getting dressed for bed is when the altercation took place. Again it would be very interesting to see the stains to the long johns and underpants. I don't know if JB could have been wearing the pullups all along, does anyone know how much they can hold before leaking onto pj's?

I would love to hear LP's explaination of how the oversized panties got on JB. Perhaps this was done while the intruder fed her pineapple?

 

[Nehemiah]

Wow, Ned. Have you been up....like all night? LOL

 

[Nedthan Johns]

...wait the blood drops were found on the panties too, so unless the pullups leaked and then were removed and the blood somehow leaked out, perhaps from the body being moved into the windowless room, that could work, otherwise she wasn't wearing pullups at all.

Anyone have a 6 year old?

 

[Nedthan Johns]

You know what this crime needs? It needs a group of us to get together with the evidence as we know it and re-create the crime scene. Each and every step of it, or course not hurting a child, but using controlled experiements. There is a human farm somewhere in the east. I have always wondered why or if they have performed tests on the bodies of children there, which I would assume they may have with golf clubs, baseball bats, and flashlights, or on models of skulls with the same densitiy. A child the height and weight as Burke, and let him go at it. Same for a woman. I would also like to see studies done on the amount of urine deposited on the long johns and underpants, to see if it is even possible for a child to wet her bed and then in less than 2 hours have her bladder full enough to re-wet herself at the time of death.
I would like to see if size 12 panties fit on a 6 year old, or fit on top of pull ups. I would like to know if a full bladder in a child of 6 would wet through pullups. There are keys to this case, and I believe the underwear is now one of them along with the pineapple that so conclusively point to Patsy Ramsey as the murderer of this child, that I think, just think that continuing to rule out what is fact, and what isn't we are getting closer to knowing only what can be.

 

[Nehemiah]

Are these southern hillbilly women in the habit of buying underwear for other people's kids?

Gee, Shylock, that's a pretty rude comment to make! :croc:

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Hey Nehemia, yep, had a brain spurt. Damn good one if you ask me, LOL


I like my underpants conclusion, what do you think? LOL I got here at 1am and it's now 5:30 almost, damn this thing is addictive.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Ya know there are some things in life you can't put down, this is one of them, it's like a book with no ending..... I just hate it. That is what this case needs, imagine what we could do if we were privy to ALL the information... which ironically we might already have, considering all the leaks.

 

[Nehemiah]

Hey Nehemia, yep, had a brain spurt. Damn good one if you ask me, LOL


I like my underpants conclusion, what do you think? LOL I got here at 1am and it's now 5:30 almost, damn this thing is addictive.

Yep, you're on a roll! Good ideas. I'm not sure if pull ups spill over, though. It's been a long time since I've dealt with such, and I have never known a six year old who wore pull ups.

I'm thinking we should all get together on a cruise ship. Have a "case cruise". What do you think?

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Toth: bacteria such as from the urinary tract will attack the dna in a blood stain from the intruder's having instinctively touched a scratch that JonBenet inflicted on her attacker. The unfortunate delay in discovery of the corpse caused by the BPD's utter incompetence is the reason for any 'degraded' state. I suspect the second blood spot was higher up in the panties and not saturated with urine and therefore remained relatively free of bacteria.

Ned: I see so one blood stain you claim (the urine free one, contained JB's undegraded blood, but that of the attacker fell victim to the urine bacteria? How does that explain the degraded DNA under JB's nails?

Note: There has been references to 'wiped down' does anyone know if a product such as HandiWipes contains agents that would attack dna?

Ned: I will contact a well kknown prominant Scientist I know that can answer both of these questions. Bleach is a well known agent that can break down DNA, I am not certain what effect urine would have on it or whatever components are in handiwipes.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

A cruise sounds good,...... but that's what my wife is going to send me on ALONE if I don't get my arse in bed. Good night Nei, I mean good morning. Ah heck, it's Sunday, I get to sleep in!

See you all later

 

[Charlie]

Can someone please give me a source that clearly states that the dna found in the panties is not "Ramsey DNA"

Toth, hopefully you can provide me with that since you stated that earlier in this thread.

 

[Toth]

If it were Ramsey dna, you bet the handcuffs would have been slapped on John Ramsey's wrists but quick!

 

[Shylock]

Gee, Shylock, that's a pretty rude comment to make!

I believe my point was that it's "pretty rude" to buy underwear for someone else's children--at least in my part of the world that wouldn't be considered acceptable.

 

[Nehemiah]

I believe my point was that it's "pretty rude" to buy underwear for someone else's children--at least in my part of the world that wouldn't be considered acceptable.

"southern hillbilly women" :croc:

 

[Jayelles]

I believe my point was that it's "pretty rude" to buy underwear for someone else's children--at least in my part of the world that wouldn't be considered acceptable.

Maybe a cultural thing? As I posted before, Bloomies are kind of a Bloomingdales gimmicky thing. We went to Bloomingdales last July and the Bloomies were everywhere - piled up on counter ends and at every cash point in the Childrenswear department. I perceive them to be like a souvenir kind of gift.

Buying knickers for a little girl here wouldn't be thought of as rude at all - especially if they were quirky or gimmicky. Buying a brassiere would though - unless it was from a man to his partner. Also, I don't think people would consider buying knickers for an adult woman either - again unless it was from a man to his partner.

Boxer shorts is a common gift for male relatives at Christmas here. I bought my son three pairs for his stocking last Christmas - Simpsons ones, Pin-up girl ones and a pair of Calvin Klein ones. He didn't appear in the least offended.

 

[Maxi]

Hey, there! My daughter and her friends at the theatre have thong exchange times in which each buys the other a thong every other week for the run of the show. And I've put fancy or fun panties in my girls' stockings since they were about 10. In my experience, day-of-the-week panties are an especially popular present with little girls, as long as they aren't going to open them at a birthday party.

 

[SisterSocks]

If it were Ramsey dna, you bet the handcuffs would have been slapped on John Ramsey's wrists but quick!

Lol No doubt Toth...

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Charlie, how about you find a source that says it is? Or, you could read this thread from the beginning and find a list of sources who say the DNA is not Ramsey.

I can't think of ANYone connected to this case that claims or even hints that the DNA from the panties and nail clippings is from the Ramseys. In fact, there has been no information that ANY Ramsey DNA was found on the body.

 

[Ivy]

LP, according to the link why_nutt recently posted showing an FBI document pertaining to the mystery non-JonBenet DNA, the Rs can be excluded only if the DNA is from one person. If it's from more than one person, the Rs can't be excluded. At least, that's my take on it.

If the mystery DNA is from one person, it could be just noise, or it could be the result of lab contamination. And let's not forget Sum Yung Gai, who may have touched the panties, or sneezed, spat, laughed, or coughed around them during their manufacture... or anyone else who might have had some kind of innocent contact with them before that night.