Questions

[BlueCrab]

I like that term "cafeteria cop". It aptly describes most of the theories presented so far. To support Toth just a little bit and help from being called a "cafeteria cop" myself, I'd like to say this about the stun gun marks and Toth's theory of a foot pushing down on JonBenet as the ligature was being tightened:

The marks on JonBenet are about 1 3/8" apart, the same distance as the prongs on an Air Taser stun gun. But the marks are also the same distance between one another as the distances between the 1/4" square steel button hooks on Hi-Tec boots -- 1 3/8". Did they leave the "stun gun" marks on JonBenet?

Hi-Tecs also have hard rubber designs and lugs on the soles and heels that measure 1 3/8" apart. Did they leave the "stun gun" marks on JonBenet?

However, before you start celebrating Toth, the Hi-Tec boots that left the logo design in the mold on the basement floor were BURKE'S.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[Toth]

You seem to view such things as pulling the panties back up and wiping away possible evidence as 'some sort of caring acts'. I imagine that might be possible, but I surely don't see it that way. Wiping away something that might have been a clue to his identity means that he cares about himself.

 

[Toth]

However, before you start celebrating Toth, the Hi-Tec boots that left the logo design in the mold on the basement floor were BURKE'S.

Thats news to me. Its also news to Burke too. Do you think perhaps he bought those boots with money he saved from his allowance? His parents didn't buy any such boots for him. He was never seen in any such boots, no such boots were found in the home, no such boots were featured in any family photographs. Do you think he wore the boots to bed that night? Or got up in the middle of the night and put boots on to walk around the house? Most nine year old boys don't even put slippers on in the middle of the night, much less a pair of big, heavy boots that have to be laced.

 

[Sundance]

there was no external bleeding and only residual bleeding on the brain, about 7 or 8 CC's (1 1/2 tsp.). This indicates she was likely already dead when hit because there would have been much more internal bleeding had she been hit and survived long enough to later cause the petechial hemorrhages on the neck due to the strangulation.
BlueCrab

It could be that the bleeding was minimal because the blood flow to the head was already constricted from the cord around her neck. This might also tie in with the two sets of strangulation marks on her neck.

Maybe she was strangled, didn't die quickly enough, was hit in the head, and another bout of strangulation took place.

Or maybe one strangulation took place, she somehow got loose enough to get enough air to scream, and the head blow took place then.

Regardless, the small amount of blood present at autopsy could be from restricted blood flow to the head present when the blow was struck.

JMO

Sundance

 

[BlueCrab]

It could be that the bleeding was minimal because the blood flow to the head was already constricted from the cord around her neck. This might also tie in with the two sets of strangulation marks on her neck.

Maybe she was strangled, didn't die quickly enough, was hit in the head, and another bout of strangulation took place.

Or maybe one strangulation took place, she somehow got loose enough to get enough air to scream, and the head blow took place then.

Regardless, the small amount of blood present at autopsy could be from restricted blood flow to the head present when the blow was struck.

JMO


Sundance

It's true the cord ligature around JonBenet's neck would have constricted the blood flow to the head and perhaps account for the minimum amount of blood found on the brain. But as the ligature tightened and cut off blood to the head it would, at the same time, be asphyxiating her. So I believe the strangulation killed her.

If the head blow had killed JonBenet the petechial hemorrhages above and below the circumferential marks on her neck, and the petechials on the eye lid, could NOT have formed. There's no blood pressure in a dead body.

Thus, it appears JonBenet died gently by asphyxia DURING non-consensual erotic asphyxiation sex and the horrific hit on the head and the extreme tightening of the ligature was post-mortem staging.

My best guess regarding the scream is that JonBenet screamed after the first hit from the stun gun -- and I think the stun gun hits took place in the basement, not her bedroom.

Just my opinion

BlueCrab

 

[Sundance]

It's true the cord ligature around JonBenet's neck would have constricted the blood flow to the head and perhaps account for the minimum amount of blood found on the brain. But as the ligature tightened and cut off blood to the head it would, at the same time, be asphyxiating her. So I believe the strangulation killed her.

BlueCrab

Oh, so do I. I was pointing out she didn't have to be already dead when the head injury occurred.

Sundance

 

[K777angel]

You seem to view such things as pulling the panties back up and wiping away possible evidence as 'some sort of caring acts'. I imagine that might be possible, but I surely don't see it that way. Wiping away something that might have been a clue to his identity means that he cares about himself.

Of course the perp/stager wiped her down after the sexual molestation to in part, attempt to get rid of any possible evidence. In no way does this imply it is an intruder. Family member would have the same motivation. But the perp/stager did not STOP there! He/she went even further and took the time to pull her panties back up on her. Then he/she took the time to pull her pants/longjohns back up on her. Then he/she took the time to lay her on a blanket and then wrap her up in a blanket also. Something cold-hearted perverts or revenge killer do not do. Neither do they attempt to HIDE their acts they thrust on the child if it was meant to torture the parents further.
He'd want to make sure they SAW it. Instead - he/she HID it.

You very conveniently left out these actions Toth thus proving my point of the "cafeteria cop" syndrome. Picking certain facts and ignoring others.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Not just the petechiae, but also the dark color caused by the cord pulled deep into the neck, indicate that JonBenét was strangled while she was alive.

Had she been strangled after her heart had stopped, the petechiae would not have appeared on her skin, and the color of indentation left by the tightened cord would have been white rather than dark-rust colored.

The small amount of internal bleeding resulting from the horrific skull injury indicates that JonBenét was near death when she was hit OR she died very soon after she was hit.

It seems likely that she was being strangled when she was hit on the head. It does not seem likely that she was hit on the head, then moved to the basement, then a garotte made on her, then strangulation until death.

 

[Ivy]

LovelyPigeon:
It seems likely that she was being strangled when she was hit on the head.

I agree, LP, but I'm not an IDIer. I think that when the vaginal injury occurred, JonBenet tried to get up. Panicked, Burke yanked the neck cord in a knee-jerk reaction to stop her, struck her head with the Maglite, and then yanked the cord again, even harder.

 

[why_nutt]

Not just the petechiae, but also the dark color caused by the cord pulled deep into the neck, indicate that JonBenét was strangled while she was alive.

Had she been strangled after her heart had stopped, the petechiae would not have appeared on her skin, and the color of indentation left by the tightened cord would have been white rather than dark-rust colored.

As a point of education for everyone, let it be known that petechiae do not only form as a result of strangulation. They also form when a person coughs.

http://www.medem.com/medlb/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZPWVII1AC&sub_cat=286

http://www.umassmed.edu/pulmonary/irwin/table1.htm

http://web.odu.edu/webroot/orgs/hs/nurs/nursing.nsf/pages/705respsys_su02

 

[BrotherMoon]

Ergo strangulation first head blow second, indicating deliberation. Most likely culprit: Patsy Ramsey.

Why did she do it?

Working backwards from the end result as per Patsy: JonBenet is in heaven.

Patsy is doing what? Being John's wife and Burke's mom. She wrote a book where she repeatedly mentions religious imagery, she appears on Christian tv, reports from Charlevoix always mention religious activity. She has expressed her concern for Burke's role in church.

Why did she do it?

Narcissist....pawns.....God. Connect the plots. Psalms 118, deliverance.
Imperfection to perfection. Patsy has a lifeline to heaven. Her dope husband, his money and lawyers keep her from judgement on earth. She needn't fear God's judgement because she made Him up.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Why_nutt, you're not going to try and convince us that JonBenét was suffering from whooping cough, are ya?

I think it's more accurate to say that petechiae can occur from violent and prolonged coughing.

 

[Jayelles]

Why_nutt, you're not going to try and convince us that JonBenét was suffering from whooping cough, are ya?

I think it's more accurate to say that petechiae can occur from violent and prolonged coughing.

In doing a Google search, I found many websites which described Whooping Cough as being characterised by violent coughing which continues to such an extent that the sufferer can barely catch their breath. So what precisely is wrong with Why_Nut's suggestion?

 

[Toth]

Because its a reportable disease and is so extreme that JonBenet would have exhibited signs at the White's dinner if she were that extremely sick.

JonBenet did not cough to death; she was strangled.

 

[Shylock]

Not just the petechiae, but also the dark color caused by the cord pulled deep into the neck, indicate that JonBenét was strangled while she was alive.

Had she been strangled after her heart had stopped, the petechiae would not have appeared on her skin, and the color of indentation left by the tightened cord would have been white rather than dark-rust colored.

LP, you're dead wrong about the color of the mark the cord would have left. The cord would have left "post mortem bruising" which would look exactly like what you see in the photos. Not only would the color have been the same, but post-mortem bruising is limited to areas where pressure is applied that forces blood from the veins manually, since the heart isn't working to pump the blood out. This is also what you see on JB's neck. the bruising left by the cord is only directly under the cord, it didn't flow from underneith.

As far as Why_Nutt's statement about "coughing", you need to look up the symptoms of severe head trauma and concussion. Both vomiting and convulsions are common, which could easily have caused the minor petchiae found on JBR. It didn't need to be "whooping cough".

 

[Shylock]

Because its a reportable disease and is so extreme that JonBenet would have exhibited signs at the White's dinner if she were that extremely sick.

"The following symptoms suggest a more serious head injury that requires emergency medical treatment:
-Convulsions
-Fluid drainage from nose, mouth, or ears (may be clear or bloody)
-Stiff neck or vomiting"
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000028.htm

The head blow caused convulsions which in turn caused the petechiae on JonBenet.

 

[BlueCrab]

Thats news to me. Its also news to Burke too. Do you think perhaps he bought those boots with money he saved from his allowance? His parents didn't buy any such boots for him. He was never seen in any such boots, no such boots were found in the home, no such boots were featured in any family photographs. Do you think he wore the boots to bed that night? Or got up in the middle of the night and put boots on to walk around the house? Most nine year old boys don't even put slippers on in the middle of the night, much less a pair of big, heavy boots that have to be laced.

Toth; please stop spreading misinformation. You know better.

The Hi-Tec boots that left the Hi-Tec logo in the moldy dust on the wine cellar floor alongside of JonBenet's body belonged to BURKE. The Ramseys have been lying about no one in the Ramsey family owning Hi-Tec boots.

Ryan Ross; April 14, 2003 in Crime Magazine:

"And the mystery of the Hi-Tec boot imprint was solved in grand jury testimony. Prosecutors disclosed in the 2000 interviews of the Ramseys that Burke and one of his friends had told jurors that Burke owned a pair of Hi-Tec boots -- something his parents said they somehow overlooked or forgot when they told authorities no one in the family owned such a boot, even though there is a distinctive compass on the boot."

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[Maxi]

I think it's pretty clear that the petechiae surrounding the neck ligature were caused by ligature strangulation. The location of the petechiae is just too suggestive. But that doesn't tell us whether one ligature or two were used, or whether the strangulation took place before or after the head blow. For that, I think we need to turn to behavioral clues.

High risk offenders and true sadists usually strangle the victim first and then often finish her off with a head blow. Killers who are more careful or scared disable their victim with a head blow and then do their routine with bondage and strangulation. We need to look for clues as to what type of offender this was.

A parent strangling a child with a ligature is pretty unusual unless the parent is nuts or a complete sociopath with something to hide. IMO, the most likely possibilities for a parent perp who strangled first would be Wecht's erotic asphyxia theory or my Patsy during a brief psychotic episode theory. Other strangulation-first possibilities would be one of the parents deliberately strangling JBR to stop her from revealing a secret like incest or a parent accidentally strangling JBR with something like her shirt, and then covering it up with ligature strangulation staging.

The only head-blow-first theory involving parents that makes sense to me is a parent who lost her/his cool and flung JBR against some object. Thinking she was mortally wounded or alreadly dead, the parent might then stage the kidnap scenario. I don't think the genital injuries were part of the staging, since they were somewhat covered up, so perhaps they were the reason for not calling 911.

 

[BlueCrab]

I think it's pretty clear that the petechiae surrounding the neck ligature were caused by ligature strangulation. The location of the petechiae is just too suggestive. But that doesn't tell us whether one ligature or two were used, or whether the strangulation took place before or after the head blow.

From the crime scene photos there appear to be petechiae at both the upper and the lower circumferential marks on the neck. The upper mark contains the 1/4" white cord ligature imbedded deep into the skin, so that's obvious. The bottom mark is less obvious, but it does appear there had been a second ligature at that location.

JMO