Rav4

[BigCityAccountant]

I have a hard time understanding the argument that SA wouldn't do this or he wouldn't do that because of his experience or knowledge and at the same time use the fact he has a low IQ to make him look like a victim.

JMO

I think you mis-read what I posted--I don't think he is a victim at all. In fact, I think he is guilty beyond my reasonable doubt anyway.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

How can we be sure the car wasn't put there on the evening of 11/4 when the biz was closed and almost everyone was up in Crivitz ? TH wasn't declared missing until 11/3. If nothing was out of the ordinary back by the pit until 11/4, would have business as usual at the yard.

That's a good argument, but when I've proposed that same thing--saying no one was there--that SA could have moved the car there---I get--no that's not true--because not everyone went to Crivitz. You can't have it both ways...either no one was there when the planting occurred by whomever or no one was there when SA did it.

 

[Sustained]

That's a good argument, but when I've proposed that same thing--saying no one was there--that SA could have moved the car there---I get--no that's not true--because not everyone went to Crivitz. You can't have it both ways...either no one was there when the planting occurred by whomever or no one was there when SA did it.

BCA - I'm not saying SA moved the car there on 11/4 ... but EA lived off property & BJ stayed most nights with ST leaving only BoD at the house.
IMO, someone else could have put the RAV4 out there in the evening of 11/4-11/5.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I think you mis-read what I posted--I don't think he is a victim at all. In fact, I think he is guilty beyond my reasonable doubt anyway.

I was just jumping off of your post because you mentioned his IQ. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[missy1974]

That's a good argument, but when I've proposed that same thing--saying no one was there--that SA could have moved the car there---I get--no that's not true--because not everyone went to Crivitz. You can't have it both ways...either no one was there when the planting occurred by whomever or no one was there when SA did it.

So SA kills her on the 31st, and does what with the RAV4 for 4 days? He waits until LE comes to his home 2 times asking about the missing girl.... goes and gets the RAV4 from it's hiding spot (which no one found it yet, so it had to have been better than where it ended up lol) and puts it in the salvage yard under the cover of darkness?

IMO whoever put that RAV4 there did it after knowing there was a connection to SA and TH on the 31st. So that could mean as of November 3rd/4th, or that could mean on the 31st depending on the circumstances of her death. If someone followed her out of the yard and she never made another stop for example... that person following her would know she was at the Avery's last.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

So SA kills her on the 31st, and does what with the RAV4 for 4 days? He waits until LE comes to his home 2 times asking about the missing girl.... goes and gets the RAV4 from it's hiding spot (which no one found it yet, so it had to have been better than where it ended up lol) and puts it in the salvage yard under the cover of darkness?

IMO whoever put that RAV4 there did it after knowing there was a connection to SA and TH on the 31st. So that could mean as of November 3rd/4th, or that could mean on the 31st depending on the circumstances of her death. If someone followed her out of the yard and she never made another stop for example... that person following her would know she was at the Avery's last.

I do believe he did it and I do believe the car was parked there on the 31st. SA asks BoD and his friend Michael if they want to help burn a body...I believe TH lay dead in that car in the location it was found until the 3rd or 4th. I don't think he cared if she was found dead in that car--he was going to say he was framed from day 1. Remember according to other inmates he was planning this before he got out of jail--he surely would have though...hey--if I commit a crime--all I have to do is cry they set me up again. IMO, he was very arrogant and though everyone would believe him.

I think she was killed on the 31st and cremated on the 3rd or 4th. Wasn't it the 3rd or 4th that some claim they had the bonfire in the later testimonies?

 

[Sustained]

I do believe he did it and I do believe the car was parked there on the 31st. SA asks BoD and his friend Michael if they want to help burn a body...I believe TH lay dead in that car in the location it was found until the 3rd or 4th. I don't think he cared if she was found dead in that car--he was going to say he was framed from day 1. Remember according to other inmates he was planning this before he got out of jail--he surely would have though...hey--if I commit a crime--all I have to do is cry they set me up again. IMO, he was very arrogant and though everyone would believe him.

I think she was killed on the 31st and cremated on the 3rd or 4th. Wasn't it the 3rd or 4th that some claim they had the bonfire in the later testimonies?

Found by whom on 11/3 or 11/4 ? RAV4 was found by Sturm on the morning of the 5th.

 

[missy1974]

He didn't say "help me burn a body" to Mike. He was making a joke and said something about helping get rid of a body. Big difference in this case, in light of how the remains were found.

 

[Wendy101]

My son has a low IQ..

I imagine he can kill.... But he would not be able to cover it up.. Or clean the mess... Cover his tracks...

 

[Sarah]

Hi Sarah---Welcome!

A belated thank you for the welcome BCA.
My lovely husband took me away for a week for Valentine's Day, so I'm only just catching up

If she hit a deer that day IMO, it was after she was at Avery's. Why? because she talked to Dawn from AutoTrader and never mentioned it, and I just don't think she wouldn't have if it happened within the last hour... the first guy she seen said her vehicle looked "new".

Can't argue with the logic there and if the damage is relevant (which I think it is) and if it occurred that day (a strong possibility IMO) that was exactly my reasoning too.
However, while I've been away I've also been pondering the possibility that it could have occurred in between the time that she spoke to Dawn and the time that she arrived at Avery's.
If we accept the bus driver seeing her at Avery's around 3:30ish and the Propane guy seeing her car leave shortly after that time, we have that one hour gap to account for between her telling Dawn that she was on her way and her actually being placed there by independent witnesses . . .

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Found by whom on 11/3 or 11/4 ? RAV4 was found by Sturm on the morning of the 5th.

NO, my mistake for not making myself clear--I meant to say I believe the car was not moved, it was put there on the 31st and he took her out to cremate her on the 3rd or 4th. My apologies. When I re-read it, I can understand why you thought I said that--but not what i meant.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

He didn't say "help me burn a body" to Mike. He was making a joke and said something about helping get rid of a body. Big difference in this case, in light of how the remains were found.

I stand corrected! :shame: on me! Yes, you are correct Missy! Thanks for straightening me out! Although I think it is splitting hairs burn a body...get rid of a body--the thought of either one is horrible. :jawdrop:

 

[BigCityAccountant]

A belated thank you for the welcome BCA.
My lovely husband took me away for a week for Valentine's Day, so I'm only just catching up



Can't argue with the logic there and if the damage is relevant (which I think it is) and if it occurred that day (a strong possibility IMO) that was exactly my reasoning too.
However, while I've been away I've also been pondering the possibility that it could have occurred in between the time that she spoke to Dawn and the time that she arrived at Avery's.
If we accept the bus driver seeing her at Avery's around 3:30ish and the Propane guy seeing her car leave shortly after that time, we have that one hour gap to account for between her telling Dawn that she was on her way and her actually being placed there by independent witnesses . . .

Great Hubby! Sounds like he's a keeper! :loveyou:
WOW! Great point Sarah! She would have been delayed by hitting the deer--never though of that possibility!!! Thanks for sharing! In my opinion, I think it could be possible that whoever moved the car (I believe it was SA) may have hit a deer while moving the car.

 

[Sarah]

I've always leaned towards the bus driver and propane guy's recollections being reasonably accurate.
Since there's not much time between the bus driver seeing her photographing the van and the propane guy seeing a car like hers leaving, I think it's most likely that she was driving . . . so my belief was that if SA is guilty (I believe he most likely is)something must have happened after she left to prompt her to return to the salvage yard.

My theory's slowly evolving into something more like this though :
> 2:27 Call with Autotrader - TH says that she's on her way to the Avery job.
> En route, she has an accident (hits a deer?) and has no phone signal to call for help (calls forwarding to voicemail)
> The car's still functioning well enough to drive and she doesn't have far to go, so after inspecting the damage and calming herself down she proceeds to Avery's
> She arrives later than expected due to the accident and at around 3:30 the bus driver sees her photographing the van
> SA offers help with the vehicle, but she declines. Possibly still a bit creeped out by him?
> She leaves the site and the propane guy sees her car departing
> At some point she has second thoughts about SA's offer of help.
Possibly the prospect of driving home alone in a damaged car that might encounter problems leads her to rationalise her unease about SA.
> She turns around and heads back to the junk yard.
> SA realises that she's there alone and most likely nobody knows that she's returned after completing the job.
> He also has a perfect reason to invite her into his garage or deeper into the junk yard under the pretext of fixing her vehicle.

In my opinion, I think it could be possible that whoever moved the car (I believe it was SA) may have hit a deer while moving the car.

It's a definite possibility.
Quite likely that SA (or whoever) moved the car wouldn't have been particularly cautious with their driving or if moving it after dark may not have been using headlights.
How do you reconcile that with the propane guy's sighting of a car leaving the yard though - or do you tend to dismiss that as mistaken identification?

Also interested in hearing any other theories fleshed out (from both sides of the fence)

Of course, we could all be wrong and the car damage has nothing to do with this at all.

Great Hubby! Sounds like he's a keeper! :loveyou:

He most certainly is !!!

 

[dexter75]

Hmmm

What do you make of this?

View attachment 89413View attachment 89414

Exhibits 300 and 301. They were introduced on Day 10 during Ronald Groffy's testimony. From his testimony: My primary duty is the technical unit leader for the Forensic Imaging Unit and responsibility includes administration of the unit, photographing evidence that may be brought into the laboratory, and also doing whatever imaging analysis might be requested of our unit.

In exhibit 301 you can see something white..... it's not there in exhibit 300. It kinda looks like a cig or joint lol But I think it's smaller than that.

*Credit to the reddit poster that noticed this and I thought it was interesting enough to share over here ;-)

 

[Sarah]

Hmmm

What do you make of this?

I don't know what to make of it TBH.
If we assume that the exhibits are in chronological order i.e. photo 300 was taken before 301, then something has appeared in between the photos being taken, rather than something being removed.

Agree with Missy's visual description that it resembles a small cigarette butt, but the detail just isn't good enough in the photo to see what it might actually be.
I have it in my mind that it appears to be made out of paper though.

I guess the possibilities are :

> somebody accidentally dropped something totally unrelated there in between the photos being taken - sloppy and unprofessional, but certainly not impossible.
> somebody deliberately placed something there to help frame SA - although whatever it might be, it doesn't resemble anything that I've heard of being used as evidence.
> somebody accidentally dropped something related to planting blood / DNA evidence against SA (a label or bit of packaging, tissue from SA's bathroom?) - I can see how people who subscribe to the framing theory could make that connection, but it's far too much of a leap for me to make from an unidentifiable white "thing".
> somebody deliberately placed something there to give a sense of scale to another close up photo - seems unlikely, since it doesn't appear to be close enough to anything else to serve that purpose and surely they have rulers/scales etc specifically for that.
> somebody placed it there as a marker to flag an area of carpet for swabbing / further analysis once the photos were taken and other evidence removed - really can't see clearly enough what it might be and I've no idea whether the "imaging department" would do that sort of thing if they spotted something of interest.
> something in the car has become dislodged and fallen to that position in between photos being taken. I'm quite interested in the other "white thing" (could it be a sticker/label or something???) that appears to be stuck to the rear of the seat above it. Could part of that have dropped off?

In short though, I really have no idea what it is or the most likely way that it got there! :sos:

 

[Limaes]

Could be an evidence marker. There does appear to be a small spot/stain next to it.

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk

 

[missy1974]

View attachment 89413View attachment 89414

Exhibits 300 and 301. They were introduced on Day 10 during Ronald Groffy's testimony. From his testimony: My primary duty is the technical unit leader for the Forensic Imaging Unit and responsibility includes administration of the unit, photographing evidence that may be brought into the laboratory, and also doing whatever imaging analysis might be requested of our unit.

In exhibit 301 you can see something white..... it's not there in exhibit 300. It kinda looks like a cig or joint lol But I think it's smaller than that.

*Credit to the reddit poster that noticed this and I thought it was interesting enough to share over here ;-)

thought I would bring this ahead.

First off.... there is nothing that I could find that corresponds with the "white" thing in evidence. It's not a marker, because that doesn't make sense at all ... why isn't there other markers? And there is no spot tested in that area as far as I can tell from the reports. I don't think that the pictures are in order of when they were taken (300 and 301 are just numbers, it doesn't mean 300 was taken before 301) I think it might just be a piece of paper... maybe a sticker? It kinda reminds me of a sticker you would find on a banana or other fruit/veggie lol The point is.... where is it and what was it? If it was a sticker..... if someone touched it, could their DNA be on it?

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I thought I would post this as there has been some questions about when the deer was found and its relationship to the potential of being involved with the damage done to TH's car....this is from Marinette County Detective O'Neils interview with SA...

Steven also told me that on Friday night when Chuck (Brendan Dassey was with Chuck) was on his way "up north" that Chuck had called Steven from his cell phone to Steven phone sometime after 8:00 P.M. while Steven was outside talking to his nephew Bobby (who had his four-wheeler) and that Chuck had told him that he had seen some headlights, back in the salvage yard by Chuck's house. Steven told me that he and Bobby got into Steven's truck and drove back to the yard area to investigate.
When asked about anything else of significance occurring that night Steven told me that when his sister Barbara came home that night she had seen that a deer had been struck by a vehicle on the road and that they had notified the police and that his nephew Bobby had claimed the deer.

So I guess the deer was hit on Friday night.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

This is not a clear picture....It looks to me like an empty parking space, although I'm not 100% confident. I believe it is the other area (cars) that the cadaver dog hit on. I wonder if the car was parked there and then moved down by the crusher. I can't seem to find any other pictures that would give a better location...