Rav4

[BigCityAccountant]

Thought this might be an interest site for analyzing the blood stain patterns...

http://www.crimescene-forensics.com/Crime_Scene_Forensics/Bloodstains.html

 

[missy1974]

ahhh I saw someone on reddit link that site awhile back BCA but then lost it LOL I don't know if there are any photo's good enough to even compare.

 

[dexter75]

My thoughts exactly!

You drive around from location to location for your profession, in a vehicle in THAT condition?

Not buying it.

View attachment 88906

I kinda feel the same way about the damage Sarah, it seems relevant.... somehow. Although I am not convinced it was SA, and I think it is very possible that she left the property and then something happened. As far as I can remember, there was no DNA on that light cover too. But the damage.. the spatter on the back door... knowing she was in the back of the RAV4 at some point.... the missing tool.... I dunno.

As for her previous clients....her first appointment that day, I think the defense asked about her vehicle, he said it looked "new". No mention of damage.

I am not sure about the laws there, but here... driving around with a signal light gone... might get you pulled over, I can't imagine she drove around like that for days or weeks (and no report of an accident)

ETA: sorry the missing poster is not good.... best I could find for now lol

 

[dexter75]

I too, think the damage is significant.

Also, photos I have looked at where she first purchased the RAV ( used ) and 2 years later. Where some of the damage is, appears to be scraping and quite a bit of rust. I KNOW rust, being in MI. However, is it possible to get that much rust in TWO years time?

Asking because there are many theories of this vehicle, being swapped out. Same vehicle? I have no idea.

I have seen papers, reports of VINS, etc. Stevenavery.org site, and folks question if the reason TH's PRINTS, HAIR, BLOOD, " SWEAT DNA " weren't ALL OVER that car is because it was swapped.

Why?
Some say, to fit the NARRATIVE Kratz gave. Some say, there was a crime scene when it was found.
If there was blood, broken glass/damage from accident/shooting/etc. it had to be swapped and crushed to replace the crime scene.

All speculation and opinion,
a lot of folks putting blood sweat and tears into this, for sure.

Thank you for this thread Missy. The damage to the RAV4 is intriguing to me.
Do we have access to her original missing person's report and is there a description of the car with any mention of damage?
I've looked but don't seem to be able to find it.

I've made no secret of the fact that I think SA is probably guilty, but I just don't buy BD's narrative and am far from convinced that he had any involvement in this, beyond perhaps unwittingly assisting with a clean-up in the garage.
If it could be ascertained that the damage occurred around the time of her murder, I think there may be a different version of events that's a closer fit with the known evidence.

Sadly, I don't think we have the resources to be able to verify / disprove the timing of the damage occurring.
It could have been weeks before her death, it could have been days afterwards . . . but I can't help feeling that it's very relevant and that it wouldn't have been difficult for LE to determine a rough timescale for when it was done by asking her previous clients that day about the condition of the car.

I've already posted this elsewhere, but I still can't get this possible scenario out of my head :

 

[dexter75]

It started with a report, tried to get it here but I'm on laptop in the dimmest light, next to sleeping child lol.
I'll try again.
It is a document, official document and the year and color of RAV4 are stated incorrectly as a 98 Blue.

This document had many digging further, led to duplicate vins, fake vins, etc. Hang on. Steveavery.org has it

And I don't understand the speculation that it wasnt her car at all? Maybe they tampered with it so they could say he tried to remove that too and/or also plant that on him? Anyone ever swab that vin number plate?

 

[dexter75]

I am not, HOWEVER
many many are.
And when it's all put together, STRANGE.
You'd have to judge for yourself =)

Are you all suggesting a stand in Rav4? But why not just use her Rav4? I have to admit the damage to the car is intriguing. This case just gets weirder...

 

[Sarah]

I too, think the damage is significant.

Also, photos I have looked at where she first purchased the RAV ( used ) and 2 years later. Where some of the damage is, appears to be scraping and quite a bit of rust. I KNOW rust, being in MI. However, is it possible to get that much rust in TWO years time?

Asking because there are many theories of this vehicle, being swapped out. Same vehicle? I have no idea.

I have seen papers, reports of VINS, etc. Stevenavery.org site, and folks question if the reason TH's PRINTS, HAIR, BLOOD, " SWEAT DNA " weren't ALL OVER that car is because it was swapped.

Why?
Some say, to fit the NARRATIVE Kratz gave. Some say, there was a crime scene when it was found.
If there was blood, broken glass/damage from accident/shooting/etc. it had to be swapped and crushed to replace the crime scene.

All speculation and opinion,
a lot of folks putting blood sweat and tears into this, for sure.

Thank you Dexter.
I'll certainly take a look when I'm able. Really should be working at the moment LOL

However, I should say that the whole conspiracy around the planted car and planted body seems implausible to me and the notion that it goes a step even further than that to a substitute car enters the realms of the truly bizarre IMO. (I know that you're not suggesting that BTW - just pointing out that it's been proposed)
Still, I'll have a look with an open mind and draw my own conclusions once I've absorbed the details.

FTR I don't see anything odd in the apparent colour inconsistencies between the photographs or the stated colour of the car on documents.

The lighting used (flash vs daylight), the white balance settings in the camera and other objects / background in photos can have a huge impact on how a colour is perceived in a photo.
White & Gold vs Blue & Black anyone? LOL

Blue/Green perception is also the most common form of colour blindness and even in people who are not 'officially' colour blind, colours like teal, turquoise, aqua which fall in between the two generate the most dissent over whether they're a "greeny blue" or a "bluey green".
Some of the older languages don't even make a distinction between blue and green but have a single word that covers both.

 

[Sarah]

While I'm on the topic of the RAV4, I have a question for those of you in the US.

Re: The officer who called TH's registration number in before the car was discovered (sorry, his name escapes me at the moment and I don't have time to search - I've read so many bits and pieces about this case in between doing other stuff that I'm starting to forget things!)

That's all a little bit strange and I can see why there's so much speculation around it.
It's possible that the official story about checking a number on a piece of paper is true but I also find the illegal search theory very plausible.
The only reason that I give equal weight to both at the moment is that in the illegal search scenario, removing and concealing the plates after calling it in makes absolutely no sense to me.

What I'd like to know is if a car had no plates (i.e. they had already removed) would there be any other way of ascertaining the registration number from a visual external inspection of the vehicle.

Back in 2005 in the UK, a car would be displaying a road tax disc on the windscreen with the registration number legible on the face of it, it's also common practice for the registration number to be etched onto the glass of all windows.
Would anything similar have been in place in the US at that time?

 

[BigCityAccountant]

While I'm on the topic of the RAV4, I have a question for those of you in the US.

Re: The officer who called TH's registration number in before the car was discovered (sorry, his name escapes me at the moment and I don't have time to search - I've read so many bits and pieces about this case in between doing other stuff that I'm starting to forget things!)

That's all a little bit strange and I can see why there's so much speculation around it.
It's possible that the official story about checking a number on a piece of paper is true but I also find the illegal search theory very plausible.
The only reason that I give equal weight to both at the moment is that in the illegal search scenario, removing and concealing the plates after calling it in makes absolutely no sense to me.

What I'd like to know is if a car had no plates (i.e. they had already removed) would there be any other way of ascertaining the registration number from a visual external inspection of the vehicle.

Back in 2005 in the UK, a car would be displaying a road tax disc on the windscreen with the registration number legible on the face of it, it's also common practice for the registration number to be etched onto the glass of all windows.
Would anything similar have been in place in the US at that time?

Hi Sarah---Welcome!

You are spot on with the color issue. The actual color of the car was teal and it can sometimes look blue and then sometimes look green. I had a '93 Toyota 4 Runner and had the same thing--sometimes it look blue and sometimes it looked green depending on the lighting.

As far as the registration--to my knowledge they don't etch it into the window or anything like that in the US. We only have a VIN number. This site shows where you can find it.

http://www.autocheck.com/vehiclehistory/autocheck/en/vinbasics

I have a new 4 Runner--I'll have to check to see how it looks, but from what I can remember it is on a little steel plate that is affixed to the frame just below the windshield on the drivers side. It is either welded or riveted in place. You can google "where is the VIN number" and search images to see pictures of one.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Just thought this might be interesting....I wonder who came out when the roadkill deer was reported?

http://www.stevenspointjournal.com/...eamlines-roadkill-reporting-process/31112515/

Previously, a motorist who wanted to keep a roadkill carcass had to contact local police who then had to send an officer who would issue a permit before the animal could be removed from the site.

I wonder if they saw any damaged vehicle parts at the site where the roadkill was found?

I also wonder where it was found in relation to the Avery property?

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Someone on reddit posted another reddit post about someone hitting a deer at 40 mph with a picture of the damage, which looks to be consistent with the damage on TH's car, thought I might pass it along...

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAd...a_deer_at_40mph_it_survived_but_my_car_needs/

 

[missy1974]

Just thought this might be interesting....I wonder who came out when the roadkill deer was reported?

http://www.stevenspointjournal.com/...eamlines-roadkill-reporting-process/31112515/

Previously, a motorist who wanted to keep a roadkill carcass had to contact local police who then had to send an officer who would issue a permit before the animal could be removed from the site.

I wonder if they saw any damaged vehicle parts at the site where the roadkill was found?

I also wonder where it was found in relation to the Avery property?

If I remember right... either from statements or the transcripts.... they called it in, picked it up... then Bobby got the tag from a gas station close by (who issues the tags ... which is the permit) The paper in the picture said November 4th, but I *think* it was said that it was picked up the night before after Barb saw it on the road.

 

[missy1974]

Someone on reddit posted another reddit post about someone hitting a deer at 40 mph with a picture of the damage, which looks to be consistent with the damage on TH's car, thought I might pass it along...

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAd...a_deer_at_40mph_it_survived_but_my_car_needs/

Where I live in Canada.... it's prairies... open fields.... go further north... you have bushes (it's actually a lot like the area around Manitowoc from what I have seen in photo's/video's) We also have a ton of deer here... it's not uncommon to hit one (I have not yet... knock on wood). It just all depends on where it hits, how fast you are going... how big the deer is, etc. I have seen cars get totally written off after hitting a deer.

If she hit a deer that day IMO, it was after she was at Avery's. Why? because she talked to Dawn from AutoTrader and never mentioned it, and I just don't think she wouldn't have if it happened within the last hour... the first guy she seen said her vehicle looked "new".

 

[dexter75]

This, is the report I was referring to

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Where I live in Canada.... it's prairies... open fields.... go further north... you have bushes (it's actually a lot like the area around Manitowoc from what I have seen in photo's/video's) We also have a ton of deer here... it's not uncommon to hit one (I have not yet... knock on wood). It just all depends on where it hits, how fast you are going... how big the deer is, etc. I have seen cars get totally written off after hitting a deer.

If she hit a deer that day IMO, it was after she was at Avery's. Why? because she talked to Dawn from AutoTrader and never mentioned it, and I just don't think she wouldn't have if it happened within the last hour... the first guy she seen said her vehicle looked "new".

I totally agree--it would have been after--now the question is--did she return there? I do think that damage is key here. I wonder if BoD and TH were leaving at the same time?? Could it be possible he was involved in an accident with her? Could the family have brought the car back to the lot because it was empty and they thought he could get into trouble because of the accident? Could it be they thought TH had been picked up by a family member and she was actually picked up by the perp? Just throwing out scenarios here...just my opinion...

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Where I live in Canada.... it's prairies... open fields.... go further north... you have bushes (it's actually a lot like the area around Manitowoc from what I have seen in photo's/video's) We also have a ton of deer here... it's not uncommon to hit one (I have not yet... knock on wood). It just all depends on where it hits, how fast you are going... how big the deer is, etc. I have seen cars get totally written off after hitting a deer.

If she hit a deer that day IMO, it was after she was at Avery's. Why? because she talked to Dawn from AutoTrader and never mentioned it, and I just don't think she wouldn't have if it happened within the last hour... the first guy she seen said her vehicle looked "new".

Sounds alot like Manitowoc...further north by my grandpa's house--its mostly wooded...lots of deer out there. My gramps has hit numerous deer, some with little to no damage and some with severe damage. It just depends. What I do know is at that time of day..(dusk) the deer come out to eat. So that time of day is dangerous to drive up there because you never know when one is going to pop out from somewhere.

But what I want to know--if it is the law that people need to call the local police and they need to come out---then who came out and what did they see by that deer???? Somebody hit it---and somebody must have left some car parts whether a broken lens or bumper or whatever at the scene where the deer was killed.

 

[missy1974]

BCA ~ same here.... when the sun starts going down, you drive slower on the highways... if you are smart LOL

I am almost positive that the police did NOT come out to see that deer. It sounds like it was called in, the cops told them to go ahead and get the tag, I wonder if they have record of it though?

In one of the RAW video's that I think nbc posted.... SA said that even when there is accidents down the road they (being Manitowoc Sherrif's Dept) will call another wrecker. (would this be the cops salvage yard?)

I just can't shake the thought that the damage might have something to do with what happened to her.... someone following her (I have always thought it was odd that Bobby was gone when SA went back outside), a customer? a stalker? someone random?

 

[BigCityAccountant]

BCA ~ same here.... when the sun starts going down, you drive slower on the highways... if you are smart LOL

I am almost positive that the police did NOT come out to see that deer. It sounds like it was called in, the cops told them to go ahead and get the tag, I wonder if they have record of it though?

In one of the RAW video's that I think nbc posted.... SA said that even when there is accidents down the road they (being Manitowoc Sherrif's Dept) will call another wrecker. (would this be the cops salvage yard?)

I just can't shake the thought that the damage might have something to do with what happened to her.... someone following her (I have always thought it was odd that Bobby was gone when SA went back outside), a customer? a stalker? someone random?

I know you said you couldn't see it in the picture but there is like fresh mowed grass on the underside of the front of her car...that to me says field or an area that had been mowed recently. I thought about maybe by her house--but that would have blown off by the time she traveled around that day.

You know what else bothers me--if you look at the lanyard and the key--the lanyard is dirty but the key portion is not...why? I wonder if the key portion was wrapped around the dirty part and it was hidden in the engine area? Sort of like a spare in case she lost her keys.

 

[missy1974]

I know you said you couldn't see it in the picture but there is like fresh mowed grass on the underside of the front of her car...that to me says field or an area that had been mowed recently. I thought about maybe by her house--but that would have blown off by the time she traveled around that day.

You know what else bothers me--if you look at the lanyard and the key--the lanyard is dirty but the key portion is not...why? I wonder if the key portion was wrapped around the dirty part and it was hidden in the engine area? Sort of like a spare in case she lost her keys.

the mowed grass... I think it might be there from when they towed it down to the crusher.... there was a lot of overgrown grass there, I can see it getting caught up. I'm not sure about the lanyard/key... I will have to go look now LOL

 

[missy1974]

I don't think the lighting is the greatest, but not sure which looks "dirtier", they look about the same or actually the key part looks darker to me.


ETA: the lanyard was found in the middle console of the RAV4