Rav4

[missy1974]

Ok, the trial exhibits show that there was 6 places the defendant's blood was found, do we know where all 6 were?

I'm kinda sorta busy today (family in and out today lol) I know we tracked them all down at some point... might be in the beginning of this thread. tbh, I had trouble finding all 6... and I'm not sure I found the 6th one or not. I did notice in some of the pretrial motions, they referenced 5 stains. So I'm really not sure BCA.

The drivers seat had a drop, the ignition, the cd case, the metal back passenger door frame... and then maybe a spot on the floor between the drivers seat and console? something like that. I spent some time comparing the photo's with the lab report.... my head hurt LOL

 

[Madeleine74]

Sarah,

thank you for posting the additional pictures you had found of the Rav4 as photographed from the skies above. What I noticed right away is just how hidden that Rav4 was. It was intended to be obscured and it sure was, especially from above as photos were taken. Had the one picture not contained a red square showing exactly where the Rav4 was, I never would have seen it. Actually I couldn't see it in that photo, but at least someone had marked where it was.

 

[missy1974]

You can't see the RAV4 in the aerial photo's because it isn't there. The red box is to show where it "was".
The other aerial photo... it's gone already too.

Not sure where these came from, but they could be still shots from the news footage? Pretty sure they didn't get any aerial views (or we have not seen any) until after the RAV4 was removed from the property.

 

[Sarah]

I also found this interesting.
A poster on the Reddit site has mapped out two possible approaches to the ridge, consistent with the direction the RAV4 was facing.

It makes it seem even more unlikely to me that somebody unfamiliar with the yard would take that convoluted route in from the rear and end up parking in that particular spot.

View attachment 89879

I just realised that the link wasn't working on this one - hopefully it will show up this time.

 

[Sarah]

Missy : I've been looking again today and can't find anything at all showing ground level detail around the cars to suggest whether grass had been flattened or if there was any evidence of that red car being shunted. I guess we're just left with speculation and guesses on that one, unless anybody comes up with something else.

BCA : Hmmmm - I'm not sure about being able to spot the Rav4 from the car crusher. I'm trying to work out the angles and how much the two cars parked opposite would obscure it. I think there might have been a direct line of sight, but looking at the 4th photo, even without leaves on the trees it doesn't stand out as well as I thought it might. Bear in mind that it had those bits of junk leaning up against the side of it too.

Madeleine : Missy's right. That aerial photo must have been taken after the RAV4 was removed.
I was just browsing Google images and I wish I'd noted the exact source for each photo - as far as I remember though, most of the ones I looked at were featured on various news sites.
Nonetheless, it was still a far better hiding place for the car than I'd envisaged from the close up pics we've all seen and the written descriptions of the location.

 

[missy1974]

Sarah and BCA~ spotting the RAV4 from the crusher.... there is a ton of testimony from all different people, Pam Sturm and various officers, stating just how well it could be seen from the crusher (estimated to be 3 football fields away IIRC). So maybe they all lied... because it was testimony about how well they could see it and that there was no way the RAV4 could have been tampered with while it was sitting there because they could see it. If they didn't lie.... then it could be seen clearly from the crusher.

It's one of those things.... can't have it both ways (not meaning you guys... meaning LE) Either it was brilliantly hidden back there..... or it wasn't, ya know?

 

[Madeleine74]

That Rav4 was not intended to be easily found, that much was clear to me once I saw the various pictures of it with the stuff on and around it. And putting stuff on and around the vehicle took extra time. It wasn't a perfect hiding job, but some attempt was made. I don't think it was intended for the Rav4 never to be moved or eventually crushed, but neither was it intended to be easily found. How many visitors to the Avery yard go over by the crusher? I bet that's not a common place for buyers of salvage items to hang out.

I was thinking where I would put such a vehicle were I trying to implicate someone by taking the trouble to plant it. I would get that vehicle as close to Avery's trailer as I could and not obscure it, not position it as far from Avery's trailer as possible. After all, it's alleged TH's personal effects were also planted in the burn barrels outside SA's trailer (as well as BJ trailer), so why not put the SUV closer to the trailer? It's intended to be found, right? Well what looks hinkier than her vehicle right near SA?

 

[Sustained]

The RAV4 could have been left anywhere in the back woods of Manitowoc County under the cover of darkness. Why would a supposed killer leave a missing woman's vehicle on his family property, knowing eventually it would be found ?

If I were planting a vehicle, I certainly would not have driven it close to the Dassey house or SA trailer for fear of being seen.

 

[Madeleine74]

Easier, faster, more convenient to 'hide' a vehicle among 4,000 other vehicles on a 40 acre property. No one would notice him on his own property, at night. No risk of being spotted driving the SUV around on the County area's roads, as he would be looking for a place to dump the SUV. And how would he get back home, if he left the SUV on the backroads of Manitowoc County? He'd need to get that vehicle miles away. What if he had been spotted walking back home? Or would he call for a ride? No. That wouldn't work well.

SA couldn't *know* anything about who would look, where they would look, how they would look, how thoroughly they would look. He likely thought he had enough time, and by obscuring the vehicle, at least somewhat, the vehicle would not be easily found. He removed the license plate. He removed TH's effects that showed any connection to Auto Trader. Further, the vehicle just happened to be located far from SA's trailer and close to the car crusher. None of that is mere coincidence. And none of that is by someone who wanted and hoped the SUV would be found.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Sarah and BCA~ spotting the RAV4 from the crusher.... there is a ton of testimony from all different people, Pam Sturm and various officers, stating just how well it could be seen from the crusher (estimated to be 3 football fields away IIRC). So maybe they all lied... because it was testimony about how well they could see it and that there was no way the RAV4 could have been tampered with while it was sitting there because they could see it. If they didn't lie.... then it could be seen clearly from the crusher.

It's one of those things.... can't have it both ways (not meaning you guys... meaning LE) Either it was brilliantly hidden back there..... or it wasn't, ya know?

Yeah Missy. I know. I was just pointing out that you could see LE in the picture. Originally when Sarah said trees were on both sides, I thought...well now...how could you see the car from the crusher then. But the very last picture Sarah posted...you can actually see the officer standing guard.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Snipped for shortness

I just realized that the link wasn't working on this one - hopefully it will show up this time.

Thanks for posting this Sarah! Yeah, I'm now very convinced the Rav 4 wasn't planted. There were too many other areas closer to the entrance to leave that vehicle and not risk the chance that a resident would see someone planting the car. I know my "Paint" skills are not the greatest and I'm rushing today, so forgive my circles..but a few choice locations I would choose are circled. Why risk going so deep into Avery property when there were choices closer to the exit.

.

 

[Hippiemomof5]

Perhaps I'm not seeing what others are... But I don't see how this makes any difference. The circumstances around the vehicle being found are still suspicious. The odd placement of blood along with lack of dna and fingerprints, the locking/unlocking of the door between yard and LE warehouse, Earl saying it wasn't there when he was down that way, the fact that SA was working the crusher that week before the RAV4 was found, Pam's phone call... Too much makes no sense for me to say, "oh, that's fairly hidden, SA must have put it there to hide it." That just doesn't make sense to me at all, given everything else we know.

 

[missy1974]

Perhaps I'm not seeing what others are... But I don't see how this makes any difference. The circumstances around the vehicle being found are still suspicious. The odd placement of blood along with lack of dna and fingerprints, the locking/unlocking of the door between yard and LE warehouse, Earl saying it wasn't there when he was down that way, the fact that SA was working the crusher that week before the RAV4 was found, Pam's phone call... Too much makes no sense for me to say, "oh, that's fairly hidden, SA must have put it there to hide it." That just doesn't make sense to me at all, given everything else we know.

I agree

and that locked/unlocked door thing, really bothers me! LOL along with the key... and the "copy" listed in the evidence list that was just released... something just seems off with it all.

JMO

 

[AutumnDawn]

It could have easily been planted, driven in from the back side, as stated there are several entry points to the salvage yard. If you want it to look like he was trying to hide it, to me you put it further away, like he was "really trying" to hide it.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Perhaps I'm not seeing what others are... But I don't see how this makes any difference. The circumstances around the vehicle being found are still suspicious. The odd placement of blood along with lack of dna and fingerprints, the locking/unlocking of the door between yard and LE warehouse, Earl saying it wasn't there when he was down that way, the fact that SA was working the crusher that week before the RAV4 was found, Pam's phone call... Too much makes no sense for me to say, "oh, that's fairly hidden, SA must have put it there to hide it." That just doesn't make sense to me at all, given everything else we know.

Not trying to offend anyone , but personally I don't put much stock in what EA's says. What else is he going to say--oh yeah, I saw that car back there, my brother must be guilty. Can't say what I would do if my sister did something like this--would I tattle on her or would I try to protect her--after all she might get 36 million and share some with me? Money does funny things to people--seems like they don't think straight when there is money involved.

 

[Sarah]

Sarah and BCA~ spotting the RAV4 from the crusher.... there is a ton of testimony from all different people, Pam Sturm and various officers, stating just how well it could be seen from the crusher (estimated to be 3 football fields away IIRC). So maybe they all lied... because it was testimony about how well they could see it and that there was no way the RAV4 could have been tampered with while it was sitting there because they could see it. If they didn't lie.... then it could be seen clearly from the crusher.

It's one of those things.... can't have it both ways (not meaning you guys... meaning LE) Either it was brilliantly hidden back there..... or it wasn't, ya know?

BBM
Don't worry Missy, I know that wasn't aimed specifically at anyone here - and TBH I'm enjoying being able to throw ideas around and hear opinions from the other side. I'm certainly not going to get upset or offended by a different perspective LOL!

I have to be totally honest though and say that it's a fair point because I probably am a bit guilty of wanting it both ways.
See, I think there's a distinction between the car being visible to someone looking for one specific car among thousands and somebody looking directly at the car knowing that it's there.
To somebody who had no idea where the RAV4 might be, I think that even with a line of sight from the main yard, the trees, the two cars parked opposite it and the debris piled against it would be enough that it didn't jump out and wasn't easy to spot. Whereas, I think that once you know where it is then yes, you probably could see it fairly clearly.
I'm not sure that I've explained that particularly well, but I'm thinking about those "Where's Wally?" pictures. ("Where's Waldo?" iirc for non UK posters)

Having said that, from what I can see of the location I think LE may have been guilty of exaggerating just how clear the view of the car from the crusher was and I don't think it's impossible that somebody could have approached the car unobserved, even though that possibility doesn't fit with my current thinking.

 

[Sarah]

ooops! double post LOL

 

[Sarah]

Perhaps I'm not seeing what others are... But I don't see how this makes any difference. The circumstances around the vehicle being found are still suspicious. The odd placement of blood along with lack of dna and fingerprints, the locking/unlocking of the door between yard and LE warehouse, Earl saying it wasn't there when he was down that way, the fact that SA was working the crusher that week before the RAV4 was found, Pam's phone call... Too much makes no sense for me to say, "oh, that's fairly hidden, SA must have put it there to hide it." That just doesn't make sense to me at all, given everything else we know.

There's been some interesting discussion about the blood / DNA / Fingerprints on the "SA wasn't framed thread" and I'm pretty much OK with that. BCA has reflected my thoughts about EA, so I won't cover that here either.
The locked/unlocked thing and the key does bother me though, and I really can't rule out the possibility that there was some interference in that area to 'help things along'.

Easier, faster, more convenient to 'hide' a vehicle among 4,000 other vehicles on a 40 acre property. No one would notice him on his own property, at night. No risk of being spotted driving the SUV around on the County area's roads, as he would be looking for a place to dump the SUV. And how would he get back home, if he left the SUV on the backroads of Manitowoc County? He'd need to get that vehicle miles away. What if he had been spotted walking back home? Or would he call for a ride? No. That wouldn't work well.

SA couldn't *know* anything about who would look, where they would look, how they would look, how thoroughly they would look. He likely thought he had enough time, and by obscuring the vehicle, at least somewhat, the vehicle would not be easily found. He removed the license plate. He removed TH's effects that showed any connection to Auto Trader. Further, the vehicle just happened to be located far from SA's trailer and close to the car crusher. None of that is mere coincidence. And none of that is by someone who wanted and hoped the SUV would be found.

Exactly my thoughts and said far better than I could have.
In itself it doesn't prove that SA did hide the car there, but it's a rational explanation for why he could have. IMHO it's still more plausible than a planting scenario.

 

[Sustained]

Easier, faster, more convenient to 'hide' a vehicle among 4,000 other vehicles on a 40 acre property. No one would notice him on his own property, at night. No risk of being spotted driving the SUV around on the County area's roads, as he would be looking for a place to dump the SUV. And how would he get back home, if he left the SUV on the backroads of Manitowoc County? He'd need to get that vehicle miles away. What if he had been spotted walking back home? Or would he call for a ride? No. That wouldn't work well.

SA couldn't *know* anything about who would look, where they would look, how they would look, how thoroughly they would look. He likely thought he had enough time, and by obscuring the vehicle, at least somewhat, the vehicle would not be easily found. He removed the license plate. He removed TH's effects that showed any connection to Auto Trader. Further, the vehicle just happened to be located far from SA's trailer and close to the car crusher. None of that is mere coincidence. And none of that is by someone who wanted and hoped the SUV would be found.

Thanks for your opinion ...

SA would not have had to walk back with tow trucks and other car transport available. As far as someone seeing him driving a tow truck / flat bed around in the middle of the night, most people would have thought nothing of it and would not have been able to identify a driver in the darkness of a rural area. Take the plate off, cover the back somewhat, and it's a done deal.

Planting is easy scenario to see as well - if the RAV4 was intended to be planted, why would the planter put the car up by the Dassey and Avery houses for fear of being seen ? Put it in the back and let the P.I. with the camera find it after giving her a little hint ...

 

[Limaes]

Not trying to offend anyone , but personally I don't put much stock in what EA's says. What else is he going to say--oh yeah, I saw that car back there, my brother must be guilty. Can't say what I would do if my sister did something like this--would I tattle on her or would I try to protect her--after all she might get 36 million and share some with me? Money does funny things to people--seems like they don't think straight when there is money involved.

Agree, I don't put much stock in what EA said either.

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