RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

  • #621
RSBM

Which brings me to another question. Don't people say that JB was visiting a doctor regularly for issues possibly related to sexual abuse, and that for that reason they wouldn't reveal her medical records? Now, I know a doctor may not want to make such an accusation, but wouldn't it be much riskier to bring her in for that type of exam which has a huge risk of discovery and is not life threatening v. being afraid to bring her in for a head injury that is life threatening? It's possible they would not find the evidence of sexual abuse - fairly unlikely, but possible, especially if she'd ended up waking up and not needed long term care while unconscious. The injuries were not so severe that they would be immediately obvious.

March 16, 1997

JonBenet Ramsey's family has provided the district attorney a psychiatrist's videotaped interview with the girl's 10-year-old brother, a pediatrician's records and other information that they contend indicates the family has no history of sexual abuse, a source says.

The family has made Burke Ramsey's interview with the psychiatrist - who was selected by the Boulder County Department of Social Services - and all of JonBenet's medical records available to the prosecutor. They also allowed pediatrician Dr. Francesco Beuf and his nurses to speak with investigators.

"Police could not have obtained those things on their own, because they don't have subpoena power," said a source. "All that was completely voluntary on the part of the family."

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/03/16-2.html

"Only 5 Visits Over 3 Years Related to Genitalia. Although JBR had 27 pediatrician visits between March 1993 and November 1996, only 5 of these occasioned an examination of genitalia.....
Dr. Francesco Beuf said the last time he saw her was five weeks before she died."

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682469/Evidence of Prior Sexual Abuse
 
  • #622
I have two girls- one 10 the other is 13. My daughters have never had a doctors visit where an examination of their "genitalia" was necessary- and my 13 year old had a couple of bladder infections as a toddler- one that ended in a hospital stay and a kidney infection. Five visits before the age of seven where her genitalia had to be examined is a lot. MOO
 
  • #623
Posting here since this a thread invites the consideration of the strongest RDI involvement. Guess I align with some other posters in thinking that the reason the R’s did not call for help for JB and subsequently launched the massive cover-up was to conceal sexual abuse. For me, the chronic sexual abuse is the strongest evidence of RDI involvement – since it’s doubtful the Rs would pursue such a huge public relations effort, plus obtain lawyers before JB’s autopsy had even been performed, if it was an intruder who’d been visiting JB in her home. Imo, the chronic sexual abuse seems to be at the crux of the crime and all that followed thereafter.

As a guide there’s a classification of incest from psychiatrictimes.com --
Maddock and Larson have categorized incest into the following:
• Affection-based: the incest provides closeness in a family otherwise lacking in nurture and affection. There is an emphasis on the specialness of the relationship, within which otherwise unavailable caring is given and received
. • Erotic-based: the family atmosphere is one of chaotic pansexuality, and it is not uncommon for many members to be involved. Its norm is the erotization of relationships. The term “polyincest” is often used to describe such multiple-perpetrator situations.
• Aggression-based: the incestuous acts involve the perpetrator’s sexualized anger. The perpetrator vents his or her frustration and conflicts on a vulnerable individual, and physical mistreatment is often involved.
• Rage-based: the perpetrator is hostile and may be overtly sadistic. There may be great danger to the victim.
It is not unusual for mixtures of these components to be encountered.


We’ll never know for sure who in the household sexually abused her, so much of my post must be taken as one feels fits individual theories: PR, JR or BR. But the first person I wish to discuss is BR.

There is too much scuttlebutt from former friends/AG employee(s) about the problems between JB and BR for me to ignore that there may have been SBP existing in the home; this is obviously what Kolar speculates and all but actually states. Granted, it’s hearsay but hearsay from people who knew the family. One may therefore make a presumptive leap that the parents knew there were issues. After the adult Rs allegedly speak to the kids up in Charlevoix, MI, summer of 1996, about their “games”, some of JB’s enuresis and encopresis begin to abate. However, JB’s toileting issues start up again a month before her death. I’ve asked myself what is wrong with PR or JR to not correct this situation. One poster (Ozazure) stated once that when a problem goes on and is not corrected, there is a tendency towards “learned helplessness.“ This helplessness may be a combination of ego, denial, insulating oneself, to try not to care much since it’s been to no avail, a little like what happens in homes of addiction, ‘til there’s a tragedy.

Well, likely BR needed specialized treatment he never received. But . . . Marilyn Van Derbur Atler lays it out very bluntly in her book about the abuse she suffered and what parents need to do to prevent abuse between siblings. For example, they did not take any steps to keep the two separated at night. The kids’ situation goes beyond the polite term sibling “experimentation”. It is abuse, when one child dominates the other, regardless of age. It’s abusive and exploitive. And the parents are responsible.

For purposes of this post, I’m not going to throw in PR’s possible sexual abuse of JB (or JAR’s), because I’ve no real info on it. I’ll leave that discussion to others.

JR, OTOH, was considered by Hodges, Walter Davis and our own SD as having crossed boundaries with his daughter – a point JR always denied vehemently and often. We will never know, since there isn’t any way to actually corroborate it. But what we might be able to consider is a takeaway from the family dynamics, what child protective services notes about the family of incest and the roles all of them play.

When it comes to JR there’s plenty of documented stories regarding his behavior with his two daughters – Beth and JB. He keeps a photo of Beth in his bathroom, a private sanctuary. He calls his firstborn daughter frequently, and she appears to be his favorite. More importantly, the year he lost his marriage and his mother died, it would be easy to understand that JR may have turned to his oldest daughter for support.

When a parent uses a child to serve the parent’s emotional needs and promotes a child to a special and close role, however, that child becomes a surrogate spouse. Unfortunately the child is trapped in a world dominated by the needs of a parent. (PR fits this kind of abuse, too.) This type of relationship, is what psychologists term “emotional incest”. And it can easily contribute to a triangulation between 2 spouses and a child.

Who can forget JR explaining how JB was the one to cheer him up after Beth’s death. The “spark plug” of the family. And during PR’s absence for cancer treatment, JR turns to JB for support. JB assumes PR’s seat in the jeep, the passenger side, instead of the rear where a child normally would or should sit.

While I’ve never comfortably landed on any theory as to who wacked JB in the head (leaning towards BR for several reasons, but know it could have been PR exhibiting reckless anger, or even JR in trying to manage the cover-up), my only conclusion: The 3 R’s exploited JB in each their own way. The family was tangibly harming JB on several levels. And then she was physically destroyed. Beautiful gift of a child never had a chance. All MHO.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44563&d=1403583926

Excellent! Thank you. I absolutely agree.
Of all the inappropriate photos of JBR, that is the one that troubles me the most. It reeks of child 🤬🤬🤬🤬. With encouragement from the mother!
 
  • #624
I can't think of anything more horrible than having your child injured so badly that you hope they die.
Just this week, a friend told me that her pastor's daughter- just graduated from high school and about to attend the University of Chicago this Fall- was in Chicago with friends at a baseball game in Fenway Park- she was on the 5th floor and got into what she thought was the elevator- the car wasn't there but the doors opened- a horrible malfunction. She fell 5 stories down the elevator shaft - and LIVED. Can you imaging anything more horrific? She had the promise of her whole life ahead of her- college, career, marriage, family. Now she may very well never regain consciousness. I have to say that if that were me, I don't think I would want to see her live like that. But then again, maybe I'd want life at all costs- but is that selfish? What about her? What would SHE want?
That is something no one should ever have to face and honestly- no one knows exactly how they would react until they face it.
 
  • #625
I can't think of anything more horrible than having your child injured so badly that you hope they die.

Just this week, a friend told me that her pastor's daughter- just graduated from high school and about to attend the University of Chicago this Fall- was in Chicago with friends at a baseball game in Fenway Park- she was on the 5th floor and got into what she thought was the elevator- the car wasn't there but the doors opened- a horrible malfunction. She fell 5 stories down the elevator shaft - and LIVED. Can you imaging anything more horrific? She had the promise of her whole life ahead of her- college, career, marriage, family. Now she may very well never regain consciousness. I have to say that if that were me, I don't think I would want to see her live like that. But then again, maybe I'd want life at all costs- but is that selfish? What about her? What would SHE want?

That is something no one should ever have to face and honestly- no one knows exactly how they would react until they face it.


What a horrible tragedy ...can't even imagine and I so hope I'm never in the position to have to find out.

What would she want?

I know what everyone in my families wishes are and they know mine. You're own children,...IMO are a whole different matter...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #626
Just throwing this out there... What if the murder and ALL the staging was Patsy?
 
  • #627
Just throwing this out there... What if the murder and ALL the staging was Patsy?

Welcome back, Blue Bottle 01. Even for those of us here, who read about horrific true crimes most everyday, will find it most difficult, even too difficult, to imagine this mother killing that child and especially in the heinous manners in which the torturous death occurred.

This is one reason. The first facts we learned insinuated respectability: "The victim's family was well-connected with Boulder society,'' Eller said. (Dec. 27, 1996)

What BPD Commander John Eller meant was that he had been immediately informed who and what to do [they would be treated as victims] from someone higher in command.

Within one week of the murder: In a Jan. 1 CNN interview, Patsy Ramsey said, "We are a Christian, God-fearing family. We love our children. We would do anything for our children."

In the beginning, the public was led to believe the Ramsey's were a solid All-American, hard working, successful, child-loving, charitable family. Then, these unthinkable cracks in the perfect façade began appearing.

Would a woman who portrays herself as the iconic Jacqueline Kennedy, intentionally crack her 6yo daughter's skull? Did she reach over and run her fingers across the top of JonBenét's little head in search of the damage she caused to her child's skull? These visions are too much for most to bring themselves to consider. It's not possible or she wouldn't do it, claim the naysayers.

Well, I am here opining that she would do it and she did do it. I don't have all of the answers. I have lots of questions, but I do not have any doubt of her complete guilt.

The RN proves to me that this was a preplanned operation. Patsy Ramsey could not sit down calmly and compose that incredible RN after killing her beloved child. How could she, in the heat of the moment, remember so many quotes from seven or eight movies and all those hateful jabs at JR in the last paragraph?

Journalism students are taught when writing a story to always include Who? What? Why? When? Where? All five questions are answered in the ransom note.

9 pages are missing from the pad before the page with Mr. and Mrs. I and the next page has the ink bleed through. 9 pages of practicing until the one writing gets it just about perfect.

In PRs interview, she described how she pounced back up the stairs after seeing the RN and she pushed open JonBenét's bedroom door and she wasn't there. So, she became quite frantic. A bit later LE asked if she went back to JonBenét's bedroom. She replied: "No, she wasn't in there." ATT, PR had not checked JBs bathroom or under her bed or in the closet or behind the drapes. Yet Patsy was firm: "No! She wasn't in there!"

PR knew where her baby girl was and she wasn't in there.

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_4190911

http://www.usfca.edu/jco/mysteryofjonbenetramsey/
 
  • #628
RSBM

She may have thought that way regarding the sexual abuse, if she had just discovered it that night. Just a thought in regards to that line of thinking and what PR could have been thinking, not necessarily a theory or anything that has any truth to it. :twocents:
maybe even if she didn't just discover it, but decided enough was enough and she was going to stop it once and for all. moo
 
  • #629
after reading Linda Arndt's deposition, I'm back to thinking about the observations from those who were on the scene first. IMO, so much points to PR, that it's easy to blame her for everything, but LA, who was there at the very rawest and most vulnerable stage, saw things a little differently. I'm not saying she was spot on in her in her conclusions, but she knew enough and was trained enough to get a very good idea on what emotions PR and JR were showing. She was there, she saw it, and she could feel it. She knew something wasnt right with JR...and if he had been covering for his wife or child, I don't think she would have picked up the emotions that she did. Shock is shock, grief is grief, anger at his wife or son is anger, but she knew this was something worse. I've never discounted her professional opinion and she had a chance to observe this family before they lawyered up. moo
 
  • #630
Recently some posts in various threads have reminded me of the dedication of several WS members who’ve been around here for many years, and who’ve offered their knowledge of this case to others. (And their encouragement.) Their posts have been provided without expectation of receiving anything in return, saying what they’ve seen and learned. I know this knowledge and thoughts about case details have been given for some semblance of justice for JB. (So much case distortion has occurred over the years.) Not that I necessarily believe we’ll ever completely know what happened, but the glimpses of truth and understanding about JB’s death may be the only justice she’ll ever receive.

In route there’ve been ancillary effects and that’s to heighten the awareness of child abuse and of the entrenched trends within Boulder (the judicial system) and the MSM. :(

Not mentioning names of long-time posters ‘cuz I don’t want to leave anyone out, and you know who you are. Those of us who’ve come here within the last couple years (like me) have benefited hugely by what long-term posters have given. So it comes down to a real personal level of appreciation. . . . An unadorned thank you is all I’ve got.
 
  • #631
^^^ and a big :ditto: from me

I'm constantly amazed by, and grateful for, the brain trust in this forum. ya'll are wonderful, and patient, and generous!
 
  • #632
^^^ Me too! I think it is very important these long time posters know that we feel this way and how grateful we are. JonBenet is smiling down on all of you for trying, of this I am certain.
 
  • #633
Yes, thank you from me for all your explanations, insight, links, opinions, knowledge, and most of all compassion for JB.
 
  • #634
I can't think of anything more horrible than having your child injured so badly that you hope they die.
Just this week, a friend told me that her pastor's daughter- just graduated from high school and about to attend the University of Chicago this Fall- was in Chicago with friends at a baseball game in Fenway Park- she was on the 5th floor and got into what she thought was the elevator- the car wasn't there but the doors opened- a horrible malfunction. She fell 5 stories down the elevator shaft - and LIVED. Can you imaging anything more horrific? She had the promise of her whole life ahead of her- college, career, marriage, family. Now she may very well never regain consciousness. I have to say that if that were me, I don't think I would want to see her live like that. But then again, maybe I'd want life at all costs- but is that selfish? What about her? What would SHE want?
That is something no one should ever have to face and honestly- no one knows exactly how they would react until they face it.

Fenway Park is in Boston - this recently happened here to a Boston University graduate reported as being with her father post-graduation. She was released from the hospital at least a week ago, so I assume she regained some level of functionality, but the family was releasing very measured statements about her condition and she clearly sustained serious damage.

The reports have been that the doors were forced open with considerable force by multiple people, and that it was not a malfunction, but the investigation is "no longer criminal", which is strange. I assume we are talking about the same event, although you have some specific details that differ from mine. Is it possible you combined two similar stories? I only jumped in to mention that she has been released, so hopefully the outlook is not as dim as it once was. She is at a rehabilitation center.

It stood out that her parents had a very clear view of the seriousness of the situation from the start from their statements to the media. That always strikes me, because I think we are used to hearing optimistic/superficial comments, since those parents who are convinced everything will be fine are probably the ones most likely to talk to the media. I think as a result, sometimes people have unrealistic expectations about how 'normal' parents react - most of them probably are so focused on the tragedy that they never talk to the media and would be upset if anyone close to them did, and so we never hear about them. I think a lot more of them than we realize agonize over whether they should hope the child lives or not given the possibilities. I've just never considered it likely in this particular case, because the extent of the head injury wasn't extremely apparent and doctors hadn't given a prognosis.
 
  • #635
IA that the extent of the head injury was not apparent; even the ME was not aware of a head injury until JB's scalp was peeled back during autopsy. but the critical factor IMO is that we don't know how JB's body reacted to her traumatic brain injury, and there were no professionals present to interpret the severity of any symptoms

with a subdural hemorrhage, blood loss via veins gathers between the dura mater and the brain. (with an epidermal hemorrhage, blood loss via arteries gathers between the dura mater and the skull)

bleeding from veins is slower than bleeding from arteries but where the blood loss gathers is important

the severity of acute bleeds (resulting from injury) is increased if there are cerebral contusions. chronic bleeds (resulting from an underlying condition) are less serious and more easily managed

subdural hemorrhages usually cause an increase in intracranial pressure and resulting brain damage; displaced bone fragments also damage the brain

subarachnoid hemorrhage (also a type of stroke) is bleeding between the subarachnoid membrane and the pia meter. with a head injury, it can cause lowered level of consciousness/wakefulness and weakness or paralysis on one side of the body. the prognosis depends on the level of consciousness and duration of unconsciousness

http://reference.medscape.com/calculator/glasgow-coma-scale

Craniocerebral injuries
A. Scalp contusion
B. Linear, comminuted fracture of right side of skull
C. Linear pattern of contusions of right cerebral hemisphere
D. Subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage
E. Small contusions, tips of temporal lobes

http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet01.gif

*comminuted fracture: bone shattered/crushed/splintered into three or more pieces

there wasn't a tremendous amount of blood loss because she didn't survive very long but her brain was injured, and IMO it's safe to posit that JB did not appear to be in what could be described as merely mild distress
 
  • #636
IA that the extent of the head injury was not apparent; even the ME was not aware of a head injury until JB's scalp was peeled back during autopsy. but the critical factor IMO is that we don't know how JB's body reacted to her traumatic brain injury, and there were no professionals present to interpret the severity of any symptoms
*snipped by me to save space*

Those are all good points, and if either parent had been in the medical field, I'd be more inclined to believe that they knew how dire it was. But since neither did, I can't see them worried about her having a severely impaired future based on signs she displayed.

I saw a story once where a man was murdered, but he lingered after the initial event (I think he was injected with insulin by his wife, a nurse). He ended up in a coma and I think eventually brain dead - he started displaying certain behaviors like clenching fists that apparently indicate only basic brain functions are left and brain death is near. Those around him saw the fact that he was moving as a positive sign. Another relative who had medical training heard about it and instantly told them it was bad and he had no voluntary brain function left. Even if she began seizing in a frightening way, I'd think most parents would see that as a sign she was still functional, and see it as a better sign than prolonged unconsciousness. I just see no reason to think they were familiar with neurological indicators.

I fully agree, however, that the damage was extremely bad, regardless of how it may have appeared. Appearances definitely don't directly correspond with the severity of the injury, but I think they almost always strongly influence how people perceive the severity when they don't have medical training.
 
  • #637
IA that the extent of the head injury was not apparent; even the ME was not aware of a head injury until JB's scalp was peeled back during autopsy. but the critical factor IMO is that we don't know how JB's body reacted to her traumatic brain injury, and there were no professionals present to interpret the severity of any symptoms

with a subdural hemorrhage, blood loss via veins gathers between the dura mater and the brain. (with an epidermal hemorrhage, blood loss via arteries gathers between the dura mater and the skull)

bleeding from veins is slower than bleeding from arteries but where the blood loss gathers is important

the severity of acute bleeds (resulting from injury) is increased if there are cerebral contusions. chronic bleeds (resulting from an underlying condition) are less serious and more easily managed

subdural hemorrhages usually cause an increase in intracranial pressure and resulting brain damage; displaced bone fragments also damage the brain

subarachnoid hemorrhage (also a type of stroke) is bleeding between the subarachnoid membrane and the pia meter. with a head injury, it can cause lowered level of consciousness/wakefulness and weakness or paralysis on one side of the body. the prognosis depends on the level of consciousness and duration of unconsciousness

http://reference.medscape.com/calculator/glasgow-coma-scale

Craniocerebral injuries
A. Scalp contusion
B. Linear, comminuted fracture of right side of skull
C. Linear pattern of contusions of right cerebral hemisphere
D. Subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage
E. Small contusions, tips of temporal lobes

http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet01.gif

*comminuted fracture: bone shattered/crushed/splintered into three or more pieces

there wasn't a tremendous amount of blood loss because she didn't survive very long but her brain was injured, and IMO it's safe to posit that JB did not appear to be in what could be described as merely mild distress

Excellent info, thank you! <3

For me, the only explanation is that she presented as dead. look at that skull fracture. Despite having not broken the scalp, the displaced fracture says it all. That's a HUGE piece of bone that was obliterated, and those fragments were then forced into soft brain tissue. It likely had a "buckshot" effect. Imagine a hard blow to a drinking glass, with something soft to absorb the impact.....shudders.

AR even states cause of death associated with craniocerebral trauma.


*comminuted fracture: bone shattered/crushed/splintered into three or more pieces

Pretty much says it all.
 
  • #638
I’ve always been puzzled about the broken window. When JR leads FW to the window, it’s hard to say if he’s just buying time, so he can go find JB without FW on his heels; or if he has some thought that the police or FW will figure the window was an entry point. But no one in LE picks up on this. Not until April 1997, JR’s first interview, does JR discuss the broken window and provide a story as to how it got broken. (Kolar finds that really strange, that he didn’t mention it the morning of the 26th.) Lou Smit was on the scene later, so he doesn’t really factor into the window tale this early.

To boot, there’s a very unusual story. Now an unusual story always makes me ponder what the motivation was to establish such an outlandish tale. PR attempts to support the story, but screws it up with too much detail. She talks about how she and LHP cleaned up the area thoroughly. But LHP says she never saw this broken window and she states that she never helped PR clean up the glass. And, of course, already mentioned in another thread, no one knows when the window was broken, and why it was never repaired. JR saying it was sometime in the summer is sufficiently vague.

"R” Roulette.

1) If the spider web were old, does seeing it move in the wind support that it is a “newish” break? (That particular spider doesn’t make webs in the winter.) If it is a break which happened following LHP’s holiday break after the 23rd, then why not provide something more believable such as “Oh, the kids must have broken it over the holiday. With all the activities we hadn’t gotten around to repairing it.” Kids break stuff all the time.

2) If it happened during a violent encounter Christmas night, was someone angry enough to bash a window, did someone strike the window in a backswing by mistake, was someone wresting away an instrument and it crashed into the window?

3) Is this an example of more distancing talk from the Rs?

4) Since I think the JR summer break-in story is contrived, did JR just think it was a good idea to break it as a red herring? Or does he not want us to know who broke it?

As to glass remnants, there’s a fairly good size glass shard on the exterior window sill. Kolar says that FW picked up a glass kernel found on the floor and placed it on the interior window sill. Subsequently, the kernel must have fallen down onto the suitcase somehow.

I know we won’t likely know anything for sure, but would appreciate anyone’s thoughts. What makes most sense? Feel free to speculate away. if you want you can use the terminology of ”accepted fact” that the window was broken ;) .
 
  • #639
If it is a break which happened following LHP’s holiday break after the 23rd, then why not provide something more believable such as “Oh, the kids must have broken it over the holiday. With all the activities we hadn’t gotten around to repairing it.” Kids break stuff all the time.

That would require the police to question Burke on how broke the glass. An interview that may lead to...other questions.

From a BDI, point of view, the idea of Burke violently smashing something in anger may have worried either Patsy or John. They probably would have preferred to avoid any direction being placed towards Burke.

If Jonbenet broke the window, the next question is why Jonbenet would be involved or perform act that would lead to a window being broken. Was she angry? Was she trying to prevent someone from attacking her?

As to glass remnants, there’s a fairly good size glass shard on the exterior window sill. Kolar says that FW picked up a glass kernel found on the floor and placed it on the interior window sill. Subsequently, the kernel must have fallen down onto the suitcase somehow.

I'm amazed the perp didn't cut himself trying to get through that window.
 
  • #640
I'm not amazed that you don't have paper cuts from dictionaries or books on the case.
 

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