JB's bed was a more likely place to PUT the note if they were trying to make it look like a REAL ransom note. The stairs were a red flag to me that the Rs were planning to try to pin this on the R housekeeper, LHP. Patsy used these same stairs to "communicate" with LHP. They would leave each other notes on the stairs and Patsy would leave her handbags there for LHP to clean out. I think the note was written in that alcove where the pad, pencil cup and phone were, just off the kitchen. When police were called (likely from that kitchen phone), they simply took the note and handed it to Officer French, telling him Patsy found it on the stairs. Obviously the parents discussed what to say and planned out their version of events that morning - i.e. Patsy coming down just after 5 to make morning coffee and discovering the note on the stairs, etc.
RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!
- Thread starter Chrishope
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elannia
Active Member
Exactly DeeDee, the RN was never on the stairs, that was just another lie.
elannia
Active Member
DeeDee, explain to me please... Supposedly JR put the note on the floor to "read" it better, while PR called 911. But JF claims(I have seen this before and also on acandyrose) that he seen the note, he even gave his testimony in court that he had in fact read the note from outside. So Officer French was already there when he arrived, is there any truth in his statement? Just curious why the RN would be on the floor in the kitchen. When Officer French arrived, they handed? or showed him the RN... So why would the RN be on the floor as JF arrived
There is no way he could have read it through the glass door by the butler's pantry where the stairs were. Also, there has been conflicting information on whether that door was locked. At first, JR claimed all the doors in the home were locked (implying the "foreign faction" had a key to his house). Then- he said they weren't locked. JF, I believe, mentioned the door was unlocked. So why didn't he just walk in instead of reading a 3-page note while standing outside in the early December cold? And that assumes the note was spread out to read. The Rs said they handed the note to Officer French (and I think he concurred) and he told them to put it pack where they supposedly found it. I do not believe JF. If he saw the note on the stairs at all, he was already in the house. If he walked into the house through that side glass door, he saw it after the Rs put it there after Officer French told them to.
It makes no sense to me that JR would have knelt on the floor to read the note. For one, Patsy claimed to step OVER the note (almost impossible to do on a spiral staircase- I have one, so I know). If she was going to pick it up and put it on the floor, why bother stepping over it? Lets face it, I think we all can imagine what really happened. Patsy wrote the note, IMO with input from JR, right in her kitchen alcove by the phone, with the pen cup (containing the Sharpie pen MATCHED to the ink on the note) and after they called 911, they placed it on the stairs (or maybe they didn't- maybe they just TOLD Officer French Patsy found it on the stairs) they handed it to French.
None of their timeline stories make sense for that morning. Supposedly, JR was in the shower when Patsy got up and went downstairs. Yet he claimed he knelt and read the note in his underwear. Wouldn't he have gotten dressed after the shower? Why was the note on the floor? Why wasn't it on the stairs? Patsy said she stepped over it, right? So she stepped over it, then picked it up and spread it on the FLOOR for JR to read? No way. Just doesn't make sense.
Mama2JML
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An excerpt from the sworn testimony of John Fernie in the State of Colorado v. Thomas C. Miller:
"I drove my car into the -- up the alley and parked in the back of your house, and went around to the patio door, which was a glass door leading into the kitchen and back of the house, and didn't see anybody, but saw a piece of paper laying on the floor. Looked at that. It was facing the other direction. Read it. And after the first few lines realized something very strange was happening. And so I ran around to the front of the house and knocked on the door and was let in."
...
"I didn't pick it up. It was inside the door and I was outside. The door was locked. I read it through the door."
It sounds like Fernie is referring to the patio door adjacent to the study, not to the door opening to the butler's pantry. JMO.
"I drove my car into the -- up the alley and parked in the back of your house, and went around to the patio door, which was a glass door leading into the kitchen and back of the house, and didn't see anybody, but saw a piece of paper laying on the floor. Looked at that. It was facing the other direction. Read it. And after the first few lines realized something very strange was happening. And so I ran around to the front of the house and knocked on the door and was let in."
...
"I didn't pick it up. It was inside the door and I was outside. The door was locked. I read it through the door."
It sounds like Fernie is referring to the patio door adjacent to the study, not to the door opening to the butler's pantry. JMO.
elannia
Active Member
Mama, yes he would have had to see the note from the patio door, but looking in from the patio door wouldnt it be looking straight ahead towards the spiral staircase, kitchen being on the right?
elannia
Active Member
Thanks, and your right , there is no way he could have read it at the door at the butlers pantry, but JF said he read it on the floor, not the stairs right ?, if he was at that patio door the staircase was at the other end right? So he wouldnt have been able to read it from that far away.
Mama2JML
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Yes, I believe so.
elannia
Active Member
This is confusing, wish I had better views of the inside of the house, I am trying to imagine him looking in that door, seeing the note upside down on the floor (in his statement he said glass door leading into the kitchen and the back of the house saw a piece of paper lying on the floor, so im just curious of where exactly the note was on the floor. Also, supposedly the RN was on the staircase, moved to the floor, handed to French, then placed back on the staircase(which ST points out that that photo was actually a fake, considering it had been moved around). Anyways, if they handed the note to French, why didnt it have their FP on it then?
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Try looking at this labeled floor plan. The view by the Den (Study) is the door referenced on this plan and shown with the comment Fernie sees note from this door. This is from the FFJ library of reference materials: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?9775-Ramsey-house-plans-and-exterior-photos
elannia,
Good point about the fingerprints, sometimes they do not always transfer. Still the R's version of events is again suspect, alike BR being present during the 911 call, the placement of the RN suggests the R's story is likely to have been fabricated?
.
elannia
Active Member
Thanks, I have seen that diagram before, just wondering how JF saw it from there(didnt JR say he spread it out in the kitchen?).
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Sorry, elannia, if I missed the entire gist of your question. I think many of us have asked that same question! Since Id always believed he spread the note out on the floor near the TV room, according to PRs interview, it still seems kind of a far stretch for the RN to be viewed from that windowed door, adjacent the study (or TV room as PR calls it.)
But here is what JR says in April 97:
ST: And do you recall, and you only speak for yourself, can you tell me the movement of the note, was it lying on the floor, and did you leave it undisturbed, or did you grab it in your hand and . . .
JR: Ah, inaudible) in the hallway, I grabbed it my hand and then remember specifically laying it out on the floor, so I could read the whole thing really fast and then at one point we gave it to the first fellow who came in. And then I think, (inaudible) I lost track after that.
Then, just for comparison, here is what PR says in April 97:
TT: Okay. You pick up the note and start to read it, um, go back upstairs to JonBenets room? Is that correct?
PR: Well, I dont remember if I picked it or, or just leaned over and read it. I cant remember. I dont think I picked it up cause I remember just then bounding up the stairs toward her room.~SNIP
TT: Okay. You yelled for John. John comes down. Okay, what happened, where did John read the note at when he read it?
PR: Downstairs.
TT: Okay. Where, where was . . .
PR: Down, down in the, you know, on, not, not in the laundry room area, but down. I said theres a note down there.
TT: Okay. Down towards the butlers kitchen in that area?
PR: No, not all the way down there. On the wooden floor . . .
TT: Okay.
PR: . . .right there by the TV room.
TT: Okay um. . .
PR: He, I remember him, while I was calling 911, he was hunched over the note and had it laid out there on the floor cause thee was a light. It was still kind of darkish and there was a light, hallway light on . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .he was, you know, reading it there.
TT: Okay. Patsy, do you recall who moved the note from the bottom of the stairs down to where John could read it with the good lighting.
PR: I think he did. I, I (inaudible) . . .
And if you want to add a little layer of additional confusion from their descriptions, here is how PR describes the action and the note in her June 98 interview:
And after the first couple of
24 sentences realized, you know, what was
25 happening, and I ran back up these stairs, okay,
0010
1 and pushed her door to her room right here, and
2 she was not in her bed. So I went over to these
3 stairs and yelled out for John, called to him
4 and he came down. And I said "she's been
5 kidnapped, here's a note," whatever. And I was
6 panicking, you know. I think -- I can't
7 remember exactly what I did then, whether -- I
8 think I ran downstairs again.
9 I said, you know, "what do we do,
10 what do we do?"
11 He said, "call 911, call the
12 police."
13 I ran upstairs, and I think -- I
14 think -- I -- I can't remember if -- I think
15 asked him to check on Burke, one of us checked
16 on Burke, and I remember just seeing him at the
17 phone, trying to -- and then I looked down and
18 John came down and on the floor, down here
19 (indicating), I came in here, here, and John
20 came down, I went to the telephone here, and he
21 kind of crouched on the floor, he was in his
22 underwear, and read the papers on the floor
23 right there, and you know, I was trying to get
24 this 911 person to -- it just seemed like it
25 took forever, to drag through, you know, crazy
0011
1 by that time.
My own question: Guessing PR is referencing that while she was at the phone she remembers seeing "him", but then JR comes down. It did raise the question for me, was she about to include BRs presence at the phone, and then switches over to JR in the scene?
Yeah, there should have been JR's FPs on the note, according to their interviews. ' course since many of us attribute the RN to PR, it's all some kind of fabulous construction anyway.
Agree with UKGuy, good catch on the FPs.
But here is what JR says in April 97:
ST: And do you recall, and you only speak for yourself, can you tell me the movement of the note, was it lying on the floor, and did you leave it undisturbed, or did you grab it in your hand and . . .
JR: Ah, inaudible) in the hallway, I grabbed it my hand and then remember specifically laying it out on the floor, so I could read the whole thing really fast and then at one point we gave it to the first fellow who came in. And then I think, (inaudible) I lost track after that.
Then, just for comparison, here is what PR says in April 97:
TT: Okay. You pick up the note and start to read it, um, go back upstairs to JonBenets room? Is that correct?
PR: Well, I dont remember if I picked it or, or just leaned over and read it. I cant remember. I dont think I picked it up cause I remember just then bounding up the stairs toward her room.~SNIP
TT: Okay. You yelled for John. John comes down. Okay, what happened, where did John read the note at when he read it?
PR: Downstairs.
TT: Okay. Where, where was . . .
PR: Down, down in the, you know, on, not, not in the laundry room area, but down. I said theres a note down there.
TT: Okay. Down towards the butlers kitchen in that area?
PR: No, not all the way down there. On the wooden floor . . .
TT: Okay.
PR: . . .right there by the TV room.
TT: Okay um. . .
PR: He, I remember him, while I was calling 911, he was hunched over the note and had it laid out there on the floor cause thee was a light. It was still kind of darkish and there was a light, hallway light on . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .he was, you know, reading it there.
TT: Okay. Patsy, do you recall who moved the note from the bottom of the stairs down to where John could read it with the good lighting.
PR: I think he did. I, I (inaudible) . . .
And if you want to add a little layer of additional confusion from their descriptions, here is how PR describes the action and the note in her June 98 interview:
And after the first couple of
24 sentences realized, you know, what was
25 happening, and I ran back up these stairs, okay,
0010
1 and pushed her door to her room right here, and
2 she was not in her bed. So I went over to these
3 stairs and yelled out for John, called to him
4 and he came down. And I said "she's been
5 kidnapped, here's a note," whatever. And I was
6 panicking, you know. I think -- I can't
7 remember exactly what I did then, whether -- I
8 think I ran downstairs again.
9 I said, you know, "what do we do,
10 what do we do?"
11 He said, "call 911, call the
12 police."
13 I ran upstairs, and I think -- I
14 think -- I -- I can't remember if -- I think
15 asked him to check on Burke, one of us checked
16 on Burke, and I remember just seeing him at the
17 phone, trying to -- and then I looked down and
18 John came down and on the floor, down here
19 (indicating), I came in here, here, and John
20 came down, I went to the telephone here, and he
21 kind of crouched on the floor, he was in his
22 underwear, and read the papers on the floor
23 right there, and you know, I was trying to get
24 this 911 person to -- it just seemed like it
25 took forever, to drag through, you know, crazy
0011
1 by that time.
My own question: Guessing PR is referencing that while she was at the phone she remembers seeing "him", but then JR comes down. It did raise the question for me, was she about to include BRs presence at the phone, and then switches over to JR in the scene?
Yeah, there should have been JR's FPs on the note, according to their interviews. ' course since many of us attribute the RN to PR, it's all some kind of fabulous construction anyway.
Agree with UKGuy, good catch on the FPs.
elannia
Active Member
Thanks, I thought it odd he would have seen the RN in the kitchen(I misunderstood, I see now where he says hallway) but imo I believe the note stayed on the pad or was elsewhere until LE arrived, which then they handed French the note. UKGuy had posted that sometimes FP dont transfer but with the note being touched and moved around (assuming this was a "real kidnapping" and the note was actually on the stairs) I would think a FP would be there. I assume French had gloves on because he was handed the note. And his FP werent there either, but sometimes FP dont transfer. Of course we dont have all the facts and evidence of the case unfortunately, so we just have to work with what we do have. Good point about PR mentioning "him" at the phone then John came down. So I assume going by what she says she is talking about BR being at the phone.
elannia
Active Member
I remember reading that... do you remember which interview that was? Did she mean he screamed when he brought her up or early that morning?
elannia
Active Member
In Patsy's 97 interview she states she wore a sweater over her red turtleneck, is this the sweater thats on JB's bed in the photos?
No. There has been MUCH mis-information out there about Patsy's "sweater". The sweater Patsy was referring to was the acrylic fleece sweater-JACKET she wore to the White's. She wore it over a red turtleneck and with black velvet pants/jeans. This is the sweater she was referring to when she told LE that PW had a similar one. This has caused a lot of confusion, because it isn't really a sweater, nor is it a jacket. I guess the best description would be to say that it was like a heavy fleece cardigan. It had buttons in the front. Police also questioned Patsy about the fabric of this garment- whether it was made of wool or acrylic (it was acrylic fleece) and whether it would have been laundered or dry cleaned. This is the garment whose fibers were found in the paint tote and on the sticky side of the duct tape from JB's lips.
The sweater on JB's bed in the photo is a sweater that Patsy loaned to housekeeper LHP's daughter Arianna for her to wear to the Patsy's Christmas party on Dec 23rd. LHP was there that day to help Patsy set up for the party, and LHP had her daughter with her. Arianna was a few years older than JB, maybe middle-school age. LHP had not intended to stay for the party, but Patsy invited her to stay with her daughter. LHP was upset that her daughter did not have a "holiday" outfit on like the rest of the kids at the party, so Patsy lent Arianna one of her own sweaters.
elannia
Active Member
Thanks... I didnt think that was the one, just happened to see it there and I now remember reading that Patsy lent that to Ariana
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