RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[questfortrue]

As you know it has long been discussed as to exactly what FW saw that morning on his 2 trips to the WC. We know he couldn't find the light and did not see JB when he looked in. He admits he did not actually step into the room, and if you recall, the WC is L-shaped and when you looked in, you saw only the wall in front of you. To see the section of the room where JB was, you had to step into the room and look to the left. I do not recall FW mentioning seeing the note, either on the stairs or floor. At some point, police made copies of that note. I do not know whether copies were made right in the R home (most homes had faxes/copiers by 1996) or if it was taken into evidence to have copies made.
When FW went back to the basement with JR, he was just a few seconds behind JR as they went into the room. We know FW picked up the dict tape, looked at it, and threw it back on the blanket (obviously contaminating the evidence further). Only HE knows exactly what he saw- whether JR really tried to untie her wrists (never happened, IMO, because JR lied about her wrists being tied tightly together). We know for a FACT that her wrists were NOT tied tightly (no ligature furrows) nor were they tied TOGETHER (rigor mortis had them over a foot apart- had they been together, rigor mortis would have kept them together, even when the cord was removed). Did he see the doll, pink nightie? We don't know. He must have seen the nightie- it was right on top of the white blanket. He would have seen the doll if it was close to the body, might not have noticed it if it had been tossed to the side away from the body.

Nopey, nope, nope, JR reiterates that he didn't see that pink nightie. But there's more, and DeDee's reference to Shapiro reminded me of something I read in PMPT. Shapiro spoke to JR in Atlanta, and this is an excerpt: Toward the end of the conversation, however, Ramsey introduced a topic: the violent crimes that had taken place in Boulder since JonBenét’s death. Mentioning an attack on a woman by a man posing as a prospective home buyer, he said, “When I saw that, I said holy mackerel.” Shapiro replied that there had been many skull injuries to women. “Exactly,” Ramsey said. Shapiro mentioned the red heart drawn on JonBenét’s hand, and Ramsey said he had heard about it only recently. He hadn’t seen the Barbie nightgown in the wine cellar, he said. Then he volunteered that he didn’t know whether his daughter had been sexually assaulted or whether it was staging.

That ranks right up there with the Rs not identifying the flashlight, the bowl with pineapple, the Santa Bear, the Kleenex box, etc., except now JR knows to confuse things further by using the word "staging" in his explanations. That ol' intruder was the penultimate stager.

Draw your own conclusions, but I'm thinking about now, no one deserves otg’s rendition of JR's rendition of Moore’s ‘poetry’ - more than JR. mho

 

[questfortrue]

the RN was the biggest mistake the killer/stager did ....not ONE single person believed what was written in it!not the parents,not the friends,not the cops,not even the Ramsey team.if the note didn't exist I would have found it easier (maybe) to believe that IDI is possible.

ETA:

don't actually have a problem with the content of the note(even if it's pretty ridiculous)...but with the fact that nobody had any reactions to it (especially the huge THREATS re JB's life)

The RN is mystifying for everyone - overly dramatic with quotes/hints from crime movies, horrific threats of beheading. I agree, the police are confused by it, as are the friends. And we know the parents didn’t seem to take the threat of consequences for contacting police as very serious. PW, when she read it, thought that the letter had a “taunting” tone towards JR. Assuming that PR wrote it, was there something underlying her state of mind at the time, something beyond having an RN to confirm a kidnapping, or is she just throwing the kitchen sink of movie phraseology into it?

I know this is speculative without any real way to tell, but it seems everyone there that morning was confused by the RN’s ridiculousness. I look at the Christmas letters, so full of how wonderful their life is, and then read the content of the RN. The RN is not scary as a letter of threats, but scary in speaking to her mental state.

A few thoughts putting weight to different theories:
-If BDI . . . one thought is that if BDI, the spouse who discovered JB’s state would immediately call out to husband/wife for help. (I think, at least.) Perhaps the parents did not agree on the right course of action yet one of them had the final word. Maybe PR thought they should get an ambulance, and JR didn’t want the scandal touching the family at all. Or vice versa. The big decision of where to hide her body.
- If PDI . . it could be she composed the RN while still in anger directed towards JB (bedwetting), or JR/BR (sundry). When I read the RN, I felt the author was in a state of cold but intense emotion (the “cold rage” beneath the charm, described by ST in Haney’s interview).
- If JDI. . .the emotional process could include something along the lines of, “I’ll help you,” but underneath that help, I’m going to make the note so ridiculous that the police are going to see this isn’t a real kidnapping and then the truth will come out.

Just wondering if this is simply PR in her glory state of drama getting carried away or if the RN holds any additional expression beyond simply drafting something for the police. YMMV

 

[UKGuy]

Nopey, nope, nope, JR reiterates that he didn't see that pink nightie. But there's more, and DeDee's reference to Shapiro reminded me of something I read in PMPT. Shapiro spoke to JR in Atlanta, and this is an excerpt: Toward the end of the conversation, however, Ramsey introduced a topic: the violent crimes that had taken place in Boulder since JonBenét’s death. Mentioning an attack on a woman by a man posing as a prospective home buyer, he said, “When I saw that, I said holy mackerel.” Shapiro replied that there had been many skull injuries to women. “Exactly,” Ramsey said. Shapiro mentioned the red heart drawn on JonBenét’s hand, and Ramsey said he had heard about it only recently. He hadn’t seen the Barbie nightgown in the wine cellar, he said. Then he volunteered that he didn’t know whether his daughter had been sexually assaulted or whether it was staging.

That ranks right up there with the Rs not identifying the flashlight, the bowl with pineapple, the Santa Bear, the Kleenex box, etc., except now JR knows to confuse things further by using the word "staging" in his explanations. That ol' intruder was the penultimate stager.

Draw your own conclusions, but I'm thinking about now, no one deserves otg’s rendition of JR's rendition of Moore’s ‘poetry’ - more than JR. mho

questfortrue,
There came a point where JR put his hands up and admitted it looked like an inside job. His remarks regarding JonBenet's sexual assault look like obsfucation via complexity, it might be he is admitting the obvious but only for the investigators, Hey guys, I know it looks real but its fake, somebody staged it, i.e. not me. JR is simply playing the crowd.

.

 

[cynic]

Looking at the diagrams on the previous page I would estimate that the note lay on the floor at a distance of about twice the width of the door. A typical door width is about 30

In my diagrams, I was primarily attempting to address the question of which “corner” John was around, as it might be presumed that it was the corner near the patio door.
The location of the note would be approximately across from the mid-point of the hall table.This can be seen from the picture that shows the overhead light in the hall, which according to Patsy in her 1998 LE interview, is the only source of light switched on in the hall at the time:
19 TOM HANEY: Okay. Is there a light
20 on there then?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, just this hall
22 light here.

The south-side door to the patio was 46” wide, not 30".
The location of the note as described by Patsy was 10 feet away.

Also, it is not uncommon for people to embellish stories in circumstances involving a high-profile event.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2002-10-18/news/0210180308_1_county-police-sniper-falls-church

 

[cynic]

Cynic, no one can take such a complicated issue as this business about Fernie's reading the RN and illustrate it in such a way that it makes sense like you can. I’m sure I speak for a lot of people when I say a simple “thank you” isn't enough.

Thank you OTG, and I’m sure I speak for many when I say that your superb work and illustrations with respect to JonBenet’s head injury were extremely helpful. (To name one example.)
[SNIP]

This is the reason I felt a timeline would be useful, and why I’ve been trying (with a lot of help from questfortrue) to come up with something. But with so many different versions (and how do we know what to believe about anything that comes out of a Ramsey mouth) conflicting with one another, it becomes almost impossible.
With all this conflicting information, is it even possible to put together a reasonable timeline of the events that morning?

I tried to piece together a timeline a few years ago and was similarly frustrated. It is impossible given the conflicting accounts, IMO.

 

[cynic]

I haven’t seen any report by whoever searched first (French, I think) regarding status of basement lights and the train room window, but Kolar did write about one discrepancy revealed by sequence of visits to the basement. JR claimed in his interviews that a chair blocked the train room. However, from the sequence of FW and French being in the basement before JR said he was, and that they did not see a chair blocking that room, it seems something doesn't jive with JR's report about the chair.

The chair story is a favorite of mine, especially John’s line, “I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny little clues around, they certain are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left.”
Kolar’s book reveals the chair for the first time publically.

JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went in this room here. This door was kind of blocked. We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a chair that was in front of the door. Some old things. I moved the chair, went into this room, went back in here. This window was open, maybe that far.
LOU SMIT: And was there lighting down there or anything at that time?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically, I don't remember that it was on. The lights were probably off, which would have been normal.
LOU SMIT: How would you have been able to basement with the lights off, or was it –
JOHN RAMSEY: With the lights off at night it would have been hazardous because there's a lot of junk piled in here. This door was kind of blocked with boxes and a little chair. And you could move the chair and then walk right in. But it would have been pitch black; it would have been tough.
LOU SMIT: Did you say you had to move that chair to get in?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
…
MIKE KANE: Could you like just picture that scene again and walk me through it?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, when I came down, I mean, one of the things I noticed, okay, that door is still blocked?
MIKE KANE: What do you mean it was blocked?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, there were some boxes and there was like a barstool kind of thing sitting there. It wasn't obvious to me that anybody had gone through because I had to move the chair to get in, which I did. And then I came back in here and I noticed the window was broken, which fits from when I did it. But the window was open slightly.
…
LOU SMIT: I wanted to direct your attention, if you could, John. This photograph 71, and
especially in the entryways there and into the various rooms. Now this must have been taken fairly early on the morning of the 26th.
Can you describe what you see there? Is there anything out of place or is there anything
different from the way you remember it. Because you said you went down into that area.
JOHN RAMSEY: What is difference is, I think that the door is blocked by this drum table.
Here's the chair I said was brought to the door. And it's not. I moved the chair to get into the door. If this was taken before I was down there -- well I put it back. When I went down there, that chair was kind of blocking that entrance right there. And there was something else on the other side, whatever it was. But all I had to do was move that chair, then I walked into the room.
LOU SMIT: That's the first time down?
JOHN RAMSEY: Right. In this picture here, I would have had to move that drum table and the Easter basket in that room. So that's different.
LOU SMIT: So you say that that's been moved. Which way would you say that's been moved?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember the Easter baskets there at all. But it would have had to
have been moved. The drum table was over, and the chair was also blocking the door.
LOU SMIT: So do you think that the chair would block the door and nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?
JOHN RAMSEY: Correct.
LOU SMIT: In other words, let's say that the intruder goes into the training room, gets out, let's say, that window?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
LOU SMIT: How in effect would he get that chair to block that door, if that is the case, is what I'm saying?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. All I'm saying is, that is different than when I went down there.
LOU SMIT: Okay, let's say that you go down there?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. All I want to show is that that chair was kind of sitting right in
here, and there was something else here. I don't know what it was. It could have been that
(INAUDIBLE).
LOU SMIT: You go down, that's what you see?
JOHN RAMSEY: I go down, I say, ooh, that door is blocked. I move the chair and went in the room.
LOU SMIT: So you couldn't have gotten in without moving the chair?
JOHN RAMSEY: Correct.
…
LOU SMIT: But when you went to the train room, you had move these things in order to get into the train room?
JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I had to move the chair.
LOU SMIT: The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him.
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That's correct.
LOU SMIT: Because that would have been his exit?
JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
LOU SMIT: Okay.
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was blocked. He'd have to move something to get into the room.
LOU SMIT: And he would have had to move it back, if he was in there trying to get out, is that correct?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
LOU SMIT: So that's not very logical as far as –
JOHN RAMSEY: I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny little clues around, they certain are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left.
1998 LE interview

 

[cynic]

cynic,
IMO, this is the important aspect:
JF arrives at the house to find his usual entrance locked, so why bother attempting to read anything on the ground, why should a piece of notepad hold any relevance at that point in time?

Absolutely. Also, it would not be uncommon for something to be on the floor at the Ramsey home. The RN would have been near the hall table – it could have simply been a few papers that were brushed off accidently.

An alternative explanation is that JF's account is a mixture of fact and fiction, what does FW's deposition say regarding his time of arrival?

In White’s deposition he says he (White) arrived at “around 6:00 a.m”
I don’t believe there is a reference to Fernie’s arrival but I’ve never seen the entire deposition.

 

[cynic]

Has anyone read Henry Lee's book, Cracking more Cases? It talks about the JBR murder in it and according to him JF was already there when FW arrived…

Hi Elannia,

I’ve read it. At the time, I thought his account of Hunter and the GJ were interesting.
I’ve posted the excerpt referencing Fernie’s early arrival and some of Lee’s timeline below for reference:

At about ten on the morning of the autopsy, Fleet White, John Ramsey's best friend, arrived at the Boulder police headquarters, where Dets. Fred Patterson and Greg Idler interviewed him. White described how he'd hosted a Christmas dinner party later in the day for the four Ramseys, as well as other family and friends. The next morning, one of his guests was awakened by a call at around 6:00 AM, and his wife, Priscilla, was soon getting the terrible news of JonBenet's kidnapping from a hysterical Patsy Ramsey. White and Priscilla hurried over to their friends' home. The police and John Fernie were already in the house. A short while after his arrival, White decided to go down into the basement to search for JonBenet. There he found some lights on, and he began calling out the little girl's name. Since the basement was extremely cluttered, he had difficulty moving about, even with lighting. He began looking into the side rooms off of the basement's main boiler chamber, starting with Burke Ramsey's train room. There he saw a suitcase (owned by John Andrew Ramsey, John Ramsey's son, it was later determined) sitting upright on its side under a broken window. Below the window he found shards of the broken glass on the room's concrete floor, some of which he placed on the windowsill. White then moved the suitcase aside, so he could take a closer look at the broken window, noting that its frame was closed but not latched. Leaving the train room, he moved to his right in the boiler room. At the back of the room, behind the boiler, he approached a single, closed-off room that John and Patsy had referred to as their "wine cellar." The door had a closed wooden latch that White turned, so he could open the door. He didn't enter the room, which was pitch-black. He tried to find a light switch, and, when he couldn't locate one, he closed the door and continued his basement search. He told the detectives that he could not remember if he had relatched the door. Then he returned upstairs. Later on, White told his friend John Fernie about the broken window. The two detectives pressed White on why he had not seen JonBenet's body when he stood at the door to the chamber where she was later found by her father, and White had no answer. Fleet White continued on with his narrative on what he had seen and done the day before. At three in the afternoon, upon John Ramsey's request, White had called John Ramsey's pilot to cancel the flight to Atlanta that Ramsey had scheduled. White later went to his own home and told his two children about JonBenet's death. In the evening, White stopped by the Fernie's home, where his wife had already gone, on his way to Denver International Airport to meet Jeff Ramsey, John's Brother, and Rod Westmoreland, Ramsey's financier. John Ramsey volunteered to go with White, and the four returned to the Fernie home by 11 PM, that night. White's interview had lasted the better part of that morning.

5:45 am (approx.)-According to Patsy Ramsey, after applying her makeup, she left her third-floor master bedroom and descended a spiral staircase to the second floor. There, she washed JonBenet's soiled jumpsuit that she’d found in a laundry space just opposite her bedroom. She did not open the doors to either her daughter’s bedroom or to her son’s which was next door. Finishing this chore, Patsy descended the spiral stairs, and, just a step above the kitchen floor, she found a handwritten note on three pages that came from a white, lined stationery pad. Without stepping on these pages, she quickly determined that this was a ransom note about JonBenet, and she dashed back upstairs to discover her daughter missing from her bed, and then she screamed for her husband

5:52 am—Patsy Ramsey dialed 911 and told the Boulder Police Department’s dispatcher that her daughter, lonBenet, was missing and had been kidnapped She mentioned a ransom note. Her husband, John, was with her when she in a voice bordering on the hysterical, made this report in a distraught condition. Mrs. Ramsey failed to place the telephone directly into its cradle, and the line was open for a few more seconds

5:56 am (approx.) —Uniformed officer Rick French arrived at the Ramsey home and quickly made a search of the house, but he found no sign of the missing girl and no sign of forced entry into the home. The Ramseys then showed him what purported to be a ransom note, one Mrs. Ramsey said she found lying in three handwritten pages on the bottom steps that led down from the second floor to her kitchen. Officer French quickly read the 368-word document addressed only to John Ramsey. It said that it was left by an international faction calling itself the S.B.T.C., signed off with it under the slogan, "Victory!” These kidnappers threatened JonBenet with a quick death by beheading unless they received $118,000 in unmarked bills ($100,000 in hundred dollar bills and the final $18,000 m twenties), or if the parents or anyone else notified the police, the FBI, or others. The note’s authors also promised they were going to get back to JonBenet s parents at the Ramsey home by telephone with further instructions between eight and ten later that morning. Patsy Ramsey told Officer French that John Ramsey had gotten up before her that morning, around 5 30 and had taken his shower. French then called for backup.

6 10 am (approx.) —A second uniformed officer, Karl Veitch arrived at the house. Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey, in their distress had been frantically calling friends to report this disaster and, by this time, some of them had begun to arrive to offer the Ramseys comfort and assistance. Three additional uniformed officers were called to go to the house and four detectives were then paged. Sgt. Bob Whitson was the on-duty watch commander. Many key people were on vacation, including Det. Sgt. Larry Mason and his boss. Cdr. John Eller, head of the detective division. There was only a skeleton crew on duty at the Bou|der Police Department on the morning of the phone call, the day after Christmas.

6:40 am —Sergeant Whitson recalled that during that year the department had sent a detective to the FBI’s Child Abduction Serial Killer Unit for training and that she had returned with a manual for dealing with cases like this. However, she too, was on vacation and Whitson did not know how to contact her or where she had stored the FBI’s suggested protocol for such cases He then remembered that a lieutenant for the Boulder County Sheriff’s Department had also attended this training. He contacted him. Meanwhile, Boulder police sergeant Paul Reichenbach, and Officers Barry Weiss and Sue Barcklow arrived at the Ramsey home.

7:10 am (approx.) — Sgt. Whitson received a copy of the FBI manual. He quickly consulted it, though the Boulder Police Department had not yet adopted its recommendations as official policy. Back at the Ramsey house, John Ramsey awakened his son, Burke, and made arrangements for him to be taken by Fleet White and another friend, John Fernie to spend the day at the White's home. Ramsey also phoned his personal broker and friend, Rod Westmoreland at his home in Atlanta where business hours had already begun. He told Westmoreland what had happened and that he would need a substantial amount of cash. Westmoreland immediately started to make arrangements to transfer the money to a Boulder bank from a cash management account of Ramsey’s that had more than a million dollars in it.

8:10 am —Boulder police detectives Linda Arndt and Fred Patterson arrived at the Ramsey household and found a number of persons milling about the crime scene. These people included Priscilla and Fleet White, Barbara and John Fernie (another couple with whom Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey were very friendly), the Reverend Rol Hoverstock (the minister of the Ramseys’ church), and even two victims’ advocates who were automatically summoned to a major crime scene by Boulder police. Thus, by the time detectives arrived at the crime scene, a number of people had been freely coming and going about for more than an hour or two. Some time after the detectives' arrival, Fleet White, on his own initiative, went down into the Ramseys' basement and looked around, opening the doors to its several smaller rooms, and peering inside these extra chambers. Detective Patterson questioned the Ramseys on what had happened when they awoke that morning. He was told that Burke Ramsey, JonBenet’s older brother, had slept through the discovery of the ransom note and through Patsy's highly emotional 911 call.

8:20 AM (approx.)-Det. Linda Arndt, who had a reputation within the department for treating individuals at crime scenes in a compassionate manner, quickly assessed matters at the Ramsey house and called for more backup. She saw that Patsy Ramsey was very close to being totally out of control. As the minutes passed, Arndt also noticed that John and Patsy Ramsey did not sit together or spend a lot of time consoling one another. Mrs. Ramsey kept saying "Oh, please let her be safe," over and over again, and John Ramsey blamed himself for not setting a burglar alarm on Christmas night. Arndt read the ransom note and then sent Patrolman Veitch to police headquarters to book the ransom note as evidence. Arndt also directed Veitch to show the note to the FBI investigators as soon as they arrived. Arndt and Patterson instructed Mr. Ramsey to answer all telephone calls and to stall the kidnappers by claiming that he could not get the money they demanded until 5:00 PM that afternoon. Then the police ordered a tap on the Ramsey phone, a device that collected data from the phone company of any caller or caller ID and of the identity of any other parties associated with a particular number. Police began searching JonBenet's bedroom and started dusting for fingerprints there. Officer Barry Weiss noticed a large, police-style flashlight on the Ramseys' kitchen counter.

 

[cynic]

Something interesting (and something I wouldn’t have noticed were there not two different discussions going on) is the wording at the end of Patsy’s Christmas newsletters. Look at the end of the 1995 newsletter posted here (Post #1046) by DeDee:

Thanks to everyone who visited us in Colorado or Charlevoix this year. Please come see us in 1996! Love to you all!

The Ramseys
​

(I won’t even mention the overuse of exclamation points.) “Love to you all!” How similar is that to the questioning about a phrase found on a torn card or piece of paper in the trash? “Love you all”. So much has been made of that torn card or paper -- suggestions that it was from some “secret Santa”, questions about why it was torn up, who wrote it, when was it written, etc. We’ve never seen a picture of the card in question and BPD didn’t take it into evidence (it only showed up in a CSI picture of the trash can). Maybe even the stenographer (June 23, 1998) got the exact phrase being repeated wrong. Maybe Patsy read the phrase as, “Love t’ you all” and the stenographer didn’t hear and record the word “to”. Another possibility is that Patsy did exactly as she suggested in her questioning that she might have done: She “goofed and threw it away or something.” Maybe the “goof” was that she left out the word “to” where she meant to write “Love to you all!” (as she had written in the previous year’s Christmas newsletter shown above).

Here’s the transcript of that line of questioning again for reference:

5 VOICE: Yes, does it look like it's
6 that portion of it, though?
7 VOICE: With the pen over
8 (INAUDIBLE).
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Kind of looks like
10 the writing goes through this little design.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Which is a horn and
13 --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: -- some --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, could be, but
17 this type would be a lot bigger. I mean, see
18 that --
19 TRIP DeMUTH: That takes up most of
20 the gap between here and there.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. I did it with
22 special (INAUDIBLE) during the holidays at
23 Christmas and might (INAUDIBLE).
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: I don't know.
0560
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Hum? I can't -- I
2 can't tell.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks to me
5 like a lot bigger than that. I mean if you had
6 the real thing, I could tell for sure.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: I don't think we
8 collected that.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I know, yeah.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: So looking at that
11 though, it doesn't ring any bells, you don't --
12 the poems you wrote -- I mean you have referred
13 this now that's in this photograph, you read the
14 portion that you can see.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: That doesn't jog your
17 memory as being part of the poem that you wrote?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it could be.
19 I mean, I don't know. I just can't see it well
20 enough.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Right, okay.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: You know there is a C
23 at the end there you can see, Merry Christmas.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: And also looks like
0561
1 it signed off there at the bottom.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: "Love you all".
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Love you all, Merry
4 Christmas.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe that's the
6 end.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you do that at
8 the end of your poems, those Christmas poems?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). Was
10 the whole thing in that note, you know that
11 (INAUDIBLE) in the center there?
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Was --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Was there more pages
14 than what was sort of just the picture, because
15 usually there was something about everybody's
16 party because I knew who was going to be there
17 so --
18 TRIP DeMUTH: We will look for that
19 stuff. What we wanted to do is just explore
20 your memory by showing you --
21 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
22 PATSY RAMSEY: It could be, but it
23 doesn't look proportionate, but if it is, maybe
24 it just a, you know, one that goofed and I threw
25 it away or something.
​

Nice catch, OTG.
Oh, and what a big surprise that one of the Ramseys didn't recognize something during questioning, LOL.

 

[DeeDee249]

IA, the CoP was booted out, wouldnt accept help from other LE agencies, all of these people coming forward and they were shooed away... I too believe calls were made early that morning(and JR says on LKL that "alot of people were there at 3 in the morning"), which is that were true how did they go unnoticed? If calls were made, I wonder what the R' told them about what was going on, how it happened, etc... and WHY these people covered for the R's. Also LA being the only LE in the house, I know it was Christmas but still... seems to me this was all planned out in the wee hours of the morning after the murder and someone in LE? maybe received a call and were told of what was going on and thats why they were refusing help and left LA alone in that house. It was a big mistake turning the house back over to them , as well as (imo, JB's body) I just think it was too soon, and people wanted to hurry and get her buried(dont mean that to sound harsh, just think they could have rechecked her if needed(stun gun injuries, etc). If people in high up places were aware of the murder and did nothing but help cover, how do they live with themselves, what did they get out of it?

Yes, things may have been a lot different. We will likely never know what calls were made to whom that night. It does seem odd that with probably the ONLY kidnapping Boulder had seen in many years, Eller did not seem he needed the help that was offered. Supposedly at that point police did not know it was actually a child murder/sexual assault. But still, it seems odd he wouldn't accept help. The FBI knew right away there was something fishy and told police right there at the house "you're going to be finding her body". The saw with practiced eyes the behavior of the parents (including calling all their friends over in defiance of the note) and the note itself. They'd seen parents before who had killed or knew who killed their child and tried to pass it off as a kidnapping.
I agree it was a big mistake releasing the house from custody. That house was sold, emptied, whitewashed (literally- all wallpaper stripped and every wall painted white, every carpet pulled up) there was NO way anyone was going to find any forensic evidence after that. And as far as her body, police wanted the coroner to keep her a little bit more and the DA accused them of trying to "hold her for ransom" to get the parents to speak to them. Of course, had the coroner kept her, they might have actually been able to discover what made the marks on her face and back. But this was also by design, IMO. Once buried, there was no way the parents would agree to exhume her for further testing. And with such a spineless (and possibly corrupt) DA, there was no chance to get a warrant to override the parents' objections. Now it is too late.

 

[cynic]

Just a quick pause to ponder the BBM above. "YOUR HOUSE" ??? who was JF talking directly to at the time of this interview or deposition? Anyone know where this quote comes from?

Just a typo. Below is a scan of the transcript page. It reads, "their house."
http://www.acandyrose.com/06132001fernie-millertrial4.gif

 

[cynic]

[SNIP]
Cynic, you mention in your post #1027 the conflicting information on whether the Whites or the Fernies arrived at the Ramsey house first. This is just one example of how confusing it all becomes when trying to put it all together.

• According to Schiller, Offcs. Rick French and Karl Veitch arrive at 5:59 am., and French searches basement “shortly after arrival”.
• Kolar has French arriving alone at 5:59 am and meeting Sgt. Reichenbach at the front door when he arrives at 6:10 am (not likely enough time for French to have spoken with Ramseys, searched the basement, and then get back up to the first floor to meet Reichenbach). After a briefing from French, Kolar has Reichenbach conducting a search (in part with John Ramsey) of “all three floors, including the basement.” Kolar doesn't mention Veitch.
• According to Kolar and the Bonita Papers, the Fernies arrived before the Whites (most other sources have the Whites arriving before the Fernies, and I would tend to believe John Fernie’s court testimony over any writer’s version).
• Schiller has Offcs. Weiss, Barcklow, and Sgt. Reichenbach all arriving at 6:45 am.
• Kolar only mentions Reichenbach arriving after French at 6:10 am.

With all this conflicting information, is it even possible to put together a reasonable timeline of the events that morning

One more wrinkle, courtesy of Tom Miller.
In his newly released book, he mentions the following from Fernie's testimony:
Lozow subpoenaed John Fernie because he had seen the ransom note and might have been given a copy. Fernie testified that Patsy called him to their home on December 26, 1996. He arrived there at approximately 6:30 a. m. and approached the house via the alley and the patio door that leads into the kitchen. He found the door locked.
Prostitution of Justice, Chapter 6
http://www.tommillerlaw.com/CHAPTER-6-Elephant-in-the-Courtroom.shtml

 

[elannia]

The chair story is a favorite of mine, especially John’s line, “I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny little clues around, they certain are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left.”
Kolar’s book reveals the chair for the first time publically.

JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went in this room here. This door was kind of blocked. We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a chair that was in front of the door. Some old things. I moved the chair, went into this room, went back in here. This window was open, maybe that far.
LOU SMIT: And was there lighting down there or anything at that time?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically, I don't remember that it was on. The lights were probably off, which would have been normal.
LOU SMIT: How would you have been able to basement with the lights off, or was it –
JOHN RAMSEY: With the lights off at night it would have been hazardous because there's a lot of junk piled in here. This door was kind of blocked with boxes and a little chair. And you could move the chair and then walk right in. But it would have been pitch black; it would have been tough.
LOU SMIT: Did you say you had to move that chair to get in?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
…
MIKE KANE: Could you like just picture that scene again and walk me through it?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, when I came down, I mean, one of the things I noticed, okay, that door is still blocked?
MIKE KANE: What do you mean it was blocked?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, there were some boxes and there was like a barstool kind of thing sitting there. It wasn't obvious to me that anybody had gone through because I had to move the chair to get in, which I did. And then I came back in here and I noticed the window was broken, which fits from when I did it. But the window was open slightly.
…
LOU SMIT: I wanted to direct your attention, if you could, John. This photograph 71, and
especially in the entryways there and into the various rooms. Now this must have been taken fairly early on the morning of the 26th.
Can you describe what you see there? Is there anything out of place or is there anything
different from the way you remember it. Because you said you went down into that area.
JOHN RAMSEY: What is difference is, I think that the door is blocked by this drum table.
Here's the chair I said was brought to the door. And it's not. I moved the chair to get into the door. If this was taken before I was down there -- well I put it back. When I went down there, that chair was kind of blocking that entrance right there. And there was something else on the other side, whatever it was. But all I had to do was move that chair, then I walked into the room.
LOU SMIT: That's the first time down?
JOHN RAMSEY: Right. In this picture here, I would have had to move that drum table and the Easter basket in that room. So that's different.
LOU SMIT: So you say that that's been moved. Which way would you say that's been moved?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember the Easter baskets there at all. But it would have had to
have been moved. The drum table was over, and the chair was also blocking the door.
LOU SMIT: So do you think that the chair would block the door and nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?
JOHN RAMSEY: Correct.
LOU SMIT: In other words, let's say that the intruder goes into the training room, gets out, let's say, that window?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
LOU SMIT: How in effect would he get that chair to block that door, if that is the case, is what I'm saying?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. All I'm saying is, that is different than when I went down there.
LOU SMIT: Okay, let's say that you go down there?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. All I want to show is that that chair was kind of sitting right in
here, and there was something else here. I don't know what it was. It could have been that
(INAUDIBLE).
LOU SMIT: You go down, that's what you see?
JOHN RAMSEY: I go down, I say, ooh, that door is blocked. I move the chair and went in the room.
LOU SMIT: So you couldn't have gotten in without moving the chair?
JOHN RAMSEY: Correct.
…
LOU SMIT: But when you went to the train room, you had move these things in order to get into the train room?
JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I had to move the chair.
LOU SMIT: The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him.
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That's correct.
LOU SMIT: Because that would have been his exit?
JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
LOU SMIT: Okay.
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was blocked. He'd have to move something to get into the room.
LOU SMIT: And he would have had to move it back, if he was in there trying to get out, is that correct?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
LOU SMIT: So that's not very logical as far as –
JOHN RAMSEY: I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny little clues around, they certain are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left.
1998 LE interview

So this whole chair thing confuses me... the house was a big maze and looking through photos is even more confusing... Is the chair blocking the entrance to the train room(I know when you come down the steps and straight ahead was the WC and before that to the right was the "train room", so is that photo of the door the entrance inside the room, or already inside the room and you had to go through that door to get to where the broken window was... Thanks cynic for all the great explanations and photos. ETA, I get it now(I think lol), that is the door going INTO the "train room", right? So if JR moved that chair and it wasnt there when OF and FW went down then did someone move it back for the photo to be taken for JR's account of events? Shewwww, how confused I am

 

[UKGuy]

Absolutely. Also, it would not be uncommon for something to be on the floor at the Ramsey home. The RN would have been near the hall table – it could have simply been a few papers that were brushed off accidently.

In White’s deposition he says he (White) arrived at “around 6:00 a.m”
I don’t believe there is a reference to Fernie’s arrival but I’ve never seen the entire deposition.

cynic,
So according to JF, via Lozow subpoenaed John Fernie, he arrived after FW. Assuming neither party has any desire to adjust their arrival times, FW arrived first followed by JF, i.e FW arrives at 6:00 AM and JF at 6:30 AM.

This must mean FW would know where the RN was located, presuming he had read it, or at least is aware it exists?

When JF says he read the fiirst few lines of the RN through the window, he is saying 30 minutes after FW arrived the RN is still lying on the floor.

So the big question is did FW read the ransom note, i.e. where and how?

.

 

[cynic]

So this whole chair thing confuses me... the house was a big maze and looking through photos is even more confusing... Is the chair blocking the entrance to the train room(I know when you come down the steps and straight ahead was the WC and before that to the right was the "train room", so is that photo of the door the entrance inside the room, or already inside the room and you had to go through that door to get to where the broken window was... Thanks cynic for all the great explanations and photos. ETA, I get it now(I think lol), that is the door going INTO the "train room", right? So if JR moved that chair and it wasnt there when OF and FW went down then did someone move it back for the photo to be taken for JR's account of events? Shewwww, how confused I am

Hey Elannia,

Hope this will help. The view depicted in Kolar's book is from the “outside.”
Also, technically, when you go down the stairs to the basement, a washroom is straight ahead.
Directly to your right are the two doors we are talking about.

 

[UKGuy]

elannia,
Thats it, we know from the horses mouth that forensic evidence was moved around, some speculate so was JonBenet, i.e. into the wine-cellar?

JR knows all this so he covers his back with quips such as it must be an inside job or its staged here his ego cannot allow his intelligence to defer to that of the investigators so he mirrors their own suspicions back to them.

.

 

[cynic]

cynic,
So according to JF, via Lozow subpoenaed John Fernie, he arrived after FW. Assuming neither party has any desire to adjust their arrival times, FW arrived first followed by JF, i.e FW arrives at 6:00 AM and JF at 6:30 AM.

This must mean FW would know where the RN was located, presuming he had read it, or at least is aware it exists?

When JF says he read the fiirst few lines of the RN through the window, he is saying 30 minutes after FW arrived the RN is still lying on the floor.

So the big question is did FW read the ransom note, i.e. where and how?

.

If Fernie's timeline is accurate, then yes, the ransom note would have been on the floor for quite a long time. Hard to imagine.
I can't see it not being handled by Officer French prior to that point in time. White may have been occupied searching the basement for a period of time, but the timeline confusion is so frustrating, who knows?

 

[elannia]

Hey Elannia,

Hope this will help. The view depicted in Kolar's book is from the “outside.”
Also, technically, when you go down the stairs to the basement, a washroom is straight ahead.
Directly to your right are the two doors we are talking about.

Thanks...down the steps was the washroom, I should have put down the steps, turn right, and WC was straight ahead

 

[elannia]

Reading Henry Lee's book and I found it interesting that LHP was shown photos of the crime scene and she was asked about the drapes behind JB's bed, and also the pink and white checkered sheets that she put on her bed on the 23rd... what is strange is that PR asked TH during an interview about the bedroom photos and she said "I dont see any blood, do you", I am beginning to think this is the room which it all began. And when were tje sheets changed to beauty and the beast? I think JB slept in BR room on Christmas eve, is that right? could those pink, white sheets been on her bed Christmas night and when something happened in that room they were washed and dried, thats the reason for the beauty and the beast sheets... because her blanket was in the dryer, along with the pink gown, imo something happened while she wore that gown, and it was thrown in with the sheets and blanket

 

[DeeDee249]

Reading Henry Lee's book and I found it interesting that LHP was shown photos of the crime scene and she was asked about the drapes behind JB's bed, and also the pink and white checkered sheets that she put on her bed on the 23rd... what is strange is that PR asked TH during an interview about the bedroom photos and she said "I dont see any blood, do you", I am beginning to think this is the room which it all began. And when were tje sheets changed to beauty and the beast? I think JB slept in BR room on Christmas eve, is that right? could those pink, white sheets been on her bed Christmas night and when something happened in that room they were washed and dried, thats the reason for the beauty and the beast sheets... because her blanket was in the dryer, along with the pink gown, imo something happened while she wore that gown, and it was thrown in with the sheets and blanket

When shown the crime photos of JB's bed, LHP told police the Beauty & the Beast sheets were not the sheets she put on the bed when she was there last on the 23rd (the day of the Rs Christmas party). It is almost certain that Patsy would have changed the bed after that, because JB wet the bed EVERY night and LHP was not coming back Christmas Eve or Day. It also explains why there is no blanket seen on the bed- something police questioned Patsy about (and got her usual evasive answer). JB was found in the white blanket that was used on her own bed. The R tried to make it seem like the "kidnapper" took her from her bed wrapped in that blanket. But police pointed put that JB's bed was still made at the foot end. There was no way anyone could have pulled a blanket off that bed and leave the foot portion intact. They also told Patsy this. I think it is pretty clear what happened- Patsy put the sheets LHP had put on the bed, which had been wet the night of the 23rd or 24th, in the wash and put the white blanket in the basement washer because it did not fit in the small machine outside JB's bedroom. LHP said the white blanket was always washed in the bigger washer/dryer in the basement. So when the parents were staging the crime scene, they pulled the white blanket from the basement dryer and put in on the WC floor, placed JB on it and wrapped the sides of the blanket around JB's torso, leaving her legs, feet, head and arms exposed. The pink nightie was found on top of the blanket. It, too, may have been in the dryer with the white blanket and simply stuck to it by static cling, a fairly common thing. When shown a picture of the blankets in the WC, JR said "that's not supposed to be there" (referring to the pink nightie). This was a very telling comment. Of COURSE it wasn't supposed to be there, but neither was the white blanket and dead child supposed to be there either. His comment was a slip-up, IMO. He was really saying that the white blanket WAS supposed to be there because it was part of the staged crime scene, but the nightie was not, and he hadn't realized the pink nightie was stuck on the blanket. Though that was a windowless room, there is a chance that the parents kept the lights off and used the flashlight, so the pink nightie might have not been noticed in a darkened room. And besides, they were upset, adrenaline rushing, and focusing on cleaning up their dead daughter and staging her body. This was another reason why they would have wiped the flashlight and batteries.
On the subject of the wiped batteries- that has always been one of the biggest reasons why I blame the parents. Even if an intruder used the R's flashlight and wiped it down, there was NO reason to wipe the batteries. The intruder's prints would not be ON the batteries. The Rs prints would be expected to be on the batteries. So wiping the batteries was a way for the Rs to claim the flashlight wasn't theirs. Of course, they were unable to say what happened to THEIR flashlight, which they admitted "looked just like that one".