RDI, which sentences in RN is PR, which JR

[madeleine]

If you take the crime at face value, then the intent of the note was to scare the Ramseys into NOT calling the police. If it were scary enough some imbecile would think the Ramseys would just follow instructions. If the kidnapping hadn't gone wrong, JR would have gotten the money, and waited for instructions to "deliver" it. In the mind of an amateur, he/she/they may have thought it would be easy money, and all over with in a few hours, and they'd be $118,000 richer. (or they might have tried to get more once the $118,000 was paid).

Any normal's person first instinct would have been to call 911. If the Ramseys hadn't, they'd be criticized for not doing it.

This was a hairbrained plan by amateurs who didn't think everything out, and someone panicked in the basement-----and became angry at JBR. Perhaps they underestimated how difficult it is to restrain a small child.....and they couldn't get her out of the window in the basement.

How on earth can a kidnapping go THAT wrong?
If they were amateurs who just wanted some easy money why did it end with such a brutal crime?Why the silly games(3 pg ransom note)?Why are there no traces left?

And I disagree,I don't think I'd call LE right away if I'd read "she will be BEHEADED and EXECUTED and you're BEING WATCHED."The Ramsey's even admit in their book that they used binoculars to try to locate the ones who were watching(good one btw).What were they thinking,(not that I believe it's true)were they playing hide and seek?It was their daughters life at stake.You call LE and wait to see if the ones watching are serious or not?Nice time to gamble.....NOT>

 

[Ames]

If you take the crime at face value, then the intent of the note was to scare the Ramseys into NOT calling the police. If it were scary enough some imbecile would think the Ramseys would just follow instructions. If the kidnapping hadn't gone wrong, JR would have gotten the money, and waited for instructions to "deliver" it. In the mind of an amateur, he/she/they may have thought it would be easy money, and all over with in a few hours, and they'd be $118,000 richer. (or they might have tried to get more once the $118,000 was paid).

Any normal's person first instinct would have been to call 911. If the Ramseys hadn't, they'd be criticized for not doing it.

This was a hairbrained plan by amateurs who didn't think everything out, and someone panicked in the basement-----and became angry at JBR. Perhaps they underestimated how difficult it is to restrain a small child.....and they couldn't get her out of the window in the basement.

The RN also said that if they talked to so much as a dog...that their daughter would be beheaded. But that didn't stop the Ramsey's from calling everybody that they knew to come over, now did it? I don't know about you...but, if someone had kidnapped MY daughter and told me not to talk to anyone...not even a DOG...I wouldn't have called everyone of my friends over...that is for darn sure. 911 is one thing....but, calling the neighborhood over, for whatever reason...is another. Considering the warning in the RN. IMO...they called those people over to contaminate the crime scene. And apparently it worked. The Ramsey's are/were not stupid people. John certainly didn't make it to his position in Access Graphics..and make millions..by being stupid.

 

[Tadpole12]

They needed some sort of excuse for why she's dead."See,we didn't listen,we called YOU,police, and now she's dead."That simple.She was killed because they didn't listen to the instructions.Period,very convenient for the Ramseys eh?

NO normal parent would have called the police right away,you would have sit down and think about it,think about the CONSEQUENCES,you would have been afraid that they would harm her.

The note said they were being watched....and what do they do?EXACTLY the one sure thing that would hurt her.

Not buying it!

Hi madeleine.

Ya.
CONSEQUENCES

given JR's business experience, experience with 'internal security', and the company he kept ... well, he should have known better.

Ramsey left the company in November 1997 when Lockheed traded Access to GE for $2.8


conspiracists:
http://www.[link removed]/forum1/message571944/pg1

And John Ramsey was the head (CEO) of a billion dollar 'software' company ... This Access Graphics was a subsidiary of Lockheed and Lockheed allegedly was ...

 

[Tadpole12]

If you take the crime at face value, then the intent of the note was to scare the Ramseys into NOT calling the police. If it were scary enough some imbecile would think the Ramseys would just follow instructions. If the kidnapping hadn't gone wrong, JR would have gotten the money, and waited for instructions to "deliver" it. In the mind of an amateur, he/she/they may have thought it would be easy money, and all over with in a few hours, and they'd be $118,000 richer. (or they might have tried to get more once the $118,000 was paid).

Any normal's person first instinct would have been to call 911. If the Ramseys hadn't, they'd be criticized for not doing it.

This was a hairbrained plan by amateurs who didn't think everything out, and someone panicked in the basement-----and became angry at JBR. Perhaps they underestimated how difficult it is to restrain a small child.....and they couldn't get her out of the window in the basement.

Hi Maikai.

I've always found that aspect of the IDI scenario, kind of an everything that could go wrong scenario ...... very interesting.

poster Ravyn, had some interesting thoughts on the 'dog walker' as a lookout ...and I had thought that the three; one plus two gentlemen, may have communicated through the 'open' window ...

hmmm
I guess it's 'The Grey Van' scenario.


kidnapping gone wrong
hairbrained plan by amateurs
some imbecile,
In the mind of an amateur,
thought it would be easy money,
first instinct
panicked
angry at JBR.
underestimated
how difficult

 

[Tadpole12]

The RN also said that if they talked to so much as a dog...that their daughter would be beheaded. But that didn't stop the Ramsey's from calling everybody that they knew to come over, now did it? I don't know about you...but, if someone had kidnapped MY daughter and told me not to talk to anyone...not even a DOG...I wouldn't have called everyone of my friends over...that is for darn sure. 911 is one thing....but, calling the neighborhood over, for whatever reason...is another. Considering the warning in the RN. IMO...they called those people over to contaminate the crime scene. And apparently it worked. The Ramsey's are/were not stupid people.

Hi Ames.

that would be logical

John certainly didn't make it to his position in Access Graphics..and make millions..by being stupid.

I agree.
JR is a genius. focused and driven.

RDI:considering all he had to do .... was "outsmart" the 'on duty' PB officers and catch 'his' plane.

Focused enough to deal with LA & BPD, deal with PR, sift through mail, confirm flight status, search for a body, find a body, organize a 'vigil' and .... grieve.

 

[BBB167893]

Soon I'll be banned from Websleuths, and you with me, for talking about SW on a forum for JB!

Unfortunately, that's probably true. And to think, all the good will I've tried to build up around here!

Anyhow could you please explain to me why you think "We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We xx respect your bussiness [sic] but not the country that it serves. At this time we have your daughter in our posession [sic]. She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter."

is to the point and succinct and therefore reflects JR view, and that both PR and JR wrote it together?

Well, speaking for myself, I find madeleine's explanation quite satisfactory. Moreover, think about the kind of place JR spent his Navy days: the Phillipines, which at the time (and even now) was known for its roving bands of violent revolutionaries. Some were communists, like the New People's Army. Others were Islamist, like Abu Sayyef. It's the kind of thing he'd know about, if only by osmosis.

Why didn't JR just tell PR to say "Listen carefully! We have your daughter. Want one million. Call you 10am tomorrow" on a piece of newspaper or toilet paper.

Because, as I've often said, they created a crime. They needed to create a criminal. This is what the CASKU agents referred to as "staging within staging."

 

[voynich]

This is what the CASKU agents referred to as "staging within staging."

SD, remind me to introduce you to Occam's Razor sometime. :woohoo:

 

[Ames]

Hi Ames.

that would be logical



I agree.
JR is a genius. focused and driven.

RDI:considering all he had to do .... was "outsmart" the 'on duty' PB officers and catch 'his' plane.

Focused enough to deal with LA & BPD, deal with PR, sift through mail, confirm flight status, search for a body, find a body, organize a 'vigil' and .... grieve.

Patsy said in her 98 interview that she was completely hysterical and that John remained calm, cool and collected after he read the RN. So then Haney asked her..."So, then why didn't JOHN make that 911 call, instead of you?"

 

[Ames]

SD, remind me to introduce you to Occam's Razor sometime. :woohoo:

You don't have to introduce him, he already knows the term and what it means.

 

[DeeDee249]

Patsy said in her 98 interview that she was completely hysterical and that John remained calm, cool and collected after he read the RN. So then Haney asked her..."So, then why didn't JOHN make that 911 call, instead of you?"

So what was JR's reply to that? Or did Haney then just breeze on by it, like they did with so much of what the Rs said in their depos.

I also recall both PR and JR telling LE they didn't actually read the whole RN all the way through. PR said she just kind of glanced at it after the first few sentences. I know if it were me, I'd have memorized every word if my child's life were at stake.

 

[JMO8778]

The placement of the note was purely Patsy, IMO. (saying she 'found' it on the stairs).She needed a spot where she knew she could be sure to 'find' it.(so she made up the coffee excuse).She didn't want it associated with JB's room..where the altercation, and who knows what all else, happened,even though it would have made more sense for an actual intruder to have left it on JB's bed.
An intruder would have been afraid someone might step on it or kick it out of the way (especially in the dark!)...thinking,'I wish the kids wouldn't leave their things on the stairs!'

 

[Ames]

So what was JR's reply to that? Or did Haney then just breeze on by it, like they did with so much of what the Rs said in their depos.

I also recall both PR and JR telling LE they didn't actually read the whole RN all the way through. PR said she just kind of glanced at it after the first few sentences. I know if it were me, I'd have memorized every word if my child's life were at stake.

Right, Patsy said in a different portion of this same interview, that I am about to post below...that they didn't read the whole note, because they (the kidnappers) had gotten their point across.

This is the portion about calm, cool, collected John and the 911 call being made by Patsy (the ACTRESS).


16 TOM HANEY: And he is doing what?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: He's on his hands
18 like this (indicating), on his -- like crouched
19 on his knees, reading it.
20 TOM HANEY: And what is he saying?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Nothing much. He
22 said, "call the police, we have got to call the
23 police."
24 TOM HANEY: And how does he say it,
25 is it like that?
0051
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Just like that.
2 TOM HANEY: Cool?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Pretty --
4 TOM HANEY: He is pretty cool and
5 calm?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I was nuts, he
7 was -- I mean shaking but he was trying to --
8 TOM HANEY: You say you were nuts?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
10 TOM HANEY: Are you still
11 screaming, yelling, crying?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I mean I was
13 just in shock. You know, you know, just how did
14 they get in, who did this, my God, what are we
15 going to do?
16 TOM HANEY: Now, the phone that's
17 there, that's a fixed phone?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding, no audible
19 answer).
20 TOM HANEY: And the phone number
21 there for that phone, do you recall? Let me ask
22 it another way. Are there other phone lines
23 into the house, do you have more than one
24 number?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I can't
0052
1 remember. We had a fax machine up in John's
2 office. And the computer, although we never go
3 on the Internet on that, I don't think. I don't
4 know. I think it's just one.
5 TOM HANEY: Just one, possibly a
6 second for the fax and the computer or the
7 modem?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I can't
9 remember. I think there was only one. It seems
10 like when we got a fax I had to run upstairs and
11 turn the fax machine on, because they come on
12 the same line. I mean the phone had 6 buttons
13 set or something but that was the previous
14 owners that had that put in.
15 TOM HANEY: To the best of your
16 knowledge just the one line?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I think we just had
18 one.
19 TOM HANEY: One number? Okay.
20 Now, I have to stop you here because at my house
21 if there is an emergency, if there is a problem
22 and my wife is screaming and yelling and
23 panicked, I wouldn't have her call anybody.
24 Because they would never figure out what she is
25 saying. And it sounds like you're in kind of an
0053
1 emotional state, and John, he is the CEO, he is
2 cool, he is calm, he is down there, he is
3 processing this note and he tells you to call
4 911?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
6 TOM HANEY: It just seems kind of
7 odd to me. What --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know whether
9 it's odd or not, but that's what happened.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, you know, I
12 had it together enough to call. And I said,
13 this is Patsy Ramsey at 755 15th Street or
14 whatever. She I think she was trying to make
15 sure I got it out, you know.
16 TOM HANEY: In fact, you got it out
17 pretty good, you got the address which a lot of
18 callers who call the police, who call 911 --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: -- can't remember
20 their names.
21 TOM HANEY: Well, they don't give
22 the address. You seemed to give the address
23 pretty quick. When you called did you practice
24 this, did you rehearse, did you think about what
25 you were going to say?

============================

Okay, so Patsy is "screaming, yelling, crying", but then some miracle happens and all of the sudden, she gets it together enough to call 911. Yeah, right. I agree with Haney...she sounded pretty good on that 911 call, I don't think that she even sounds upset. But, John is the calm one...and he tells hysterical Patsy to call 911? Yeah right...whatever.

 

[Ames]

The placement of the note was purely Patsy, IMO. (saying she 'found' it on the stairs).She needed a spot where she knew she could be sure to 'find' it.(so she made up the coffee excuse).She didn't want it associated with JB's room..where the altercation, and who knows what all else, happened,even though it would have made more sense for an actual intruder to have left it on JB's bed.
An intruder would have been afraid someone might step on it or kick it out of the way (especially in the dark!)...thinking,'I wish the kids wouldn't leave their things on the stairs!'

Right...and I don't believe that note was EVER on those stairs at all. No fingerprints were found on that RN, because it was hardly handled at all. I believe that Patsy wore rubber gloves when she wrote it, and then it went from her kitchen table to the floor, with Patsy's gloved hands putting it there, and from there it was handed to the investigator at the door, when he got there. (IMO this is the only time the note was handled without any gloves, and hence they found no prints on it). According to Patsy, it was on the stairs, she picked it up, handed it to John who spread it across the floor, for whatever reason (wouldn't putting it on a table to read, be easier)...and then it was handed to the investigator. So, there should have been plenty of Ramsey prints on it...and there wasn't ANY prints.

 

[JMO8778]

right on Ames,and just the logistics of an intruder having to place the note down and then step over it,OR go up the stairs and then turn..rather twist around on those spiral steps and put it down OR put it down after bringing JB down the stairs (in which case someone would have to put her down,too),makes it a totally illogical place to put the note altogether.
didn't happen,note was never on the stairs to begin with.

 

[Ames]

right on Ames,and just the logistics of an intruder having to place the note down and then step over it,OR go up the stairs and then turn..rather twist around on those spiral steps and put it down OR put it down after bringing JB down the stairs (in which case someone would have to put her down,too),makes it a totally illogical place to put the note altogether.
didn't happen,note was never on the stairs to begin with.

And Patsy says that she LEAPED over it. I would have paid money to have seen that!

Right...sounds way to complicated for an intruder to have done all of that. Put the note down, then step over it...or go up the stairs and then twist around and put it down...etc. A real intruder would have made it easy on himself and put the RN on JB's bed...the last place that the Ramsey's supposedly saw her alive.

 

[Tadpole12]

Well, I will have to get back with ya on the rest of the RN, but...IMO...Listen Carefully was John talking to Patsy. It wasn't intended for the RN. As in..."Okay Patsy I am going to help you with this fake ransom note. Are you ready?" Patsy: "Yes John, go ahead". John: "Listen Carefully"....and then the RN begins...well, it was SUPPOSED to have began there, but Patsy thought that Listen Carefully was part of it. IMO IOW..John didn't want Patsy to screw it up...so he said..."listen carefully" TO HER....telling HER to listen carefully. Not intending for her to write those words on a sheet of paper. (How do you listen to something that you are reading? You READ carefully, or read this carefully...but, you don't listen carefully. What exactly is the reader of the RN supposed to be listening carefully TO?)

Hi Ames.

yes......

You READ carefully
follow instructions

notify 'the authoities'
notify 'the police'

 

[Tadpole12]

An alternative explanation is that Listen Carefully is a paraphrase from movies or books, including Dirty Harry

"Now listen to me carefully."
"Now listen. Listen very carefully."

If I loved Dirty Harry as much as Star Wars, I would say "Listen" rather than "read".

Another possible explanation is that this is a habit of speech -- the writer prefers to say listen rather than read. "Listen to my directions" -- if JR in his letters prefers to say listen rather than read when read would be a better choice, this would be very strong evidence in your favor.

I'm not entirely sure read carefully is necessarily better....

Read carefully! .... You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills......

vs

Listen carefully! ....You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills.....

Listen to my directions v.s Read my directions
Author may have intended or thought RN would be read aloud, to wife or LE.

OR are you suggesting that JR intended the letter to start like this

"Mr. Ramsey"

"We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We xx respect your bussiness [sic] but not the country that it serves. At this time we have your daughter in our posession [sic]. She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter."



Do you have supporting evidence in the form of character spacing/formation that reflects dictation rather than original thought?

Hi voynich.

That's an interesting perspective .... your illustration of meaning .....
fluidity of thought and cohesiveness ....

so much redundant language in the rn ...
so original thought would be?

if I delete superfluous: all the colorful language, redundant synonyms & antonyms, the bare bones of the classic form of a ransom note is visible, and fluid.
Not much rearanging to do as it reads. Just add detail.
Best to start with a vague outline when writing an essay ... then expand with detail.


A comparative to "The Classic Ransom Note":

source: http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/


4. we have

5. your daughter

5. She is safe and unharmed

6. if you want her to see
6. [if you want to see her ] [If you want to see her alive again]

6. follow our instructions

11. I will call you
[We will call you]

12. to instruct you on delivery.
16. delivery pickup
[with instructions]

8. You will withdraw $118,000.00
[We want $ _ _ _ _ _ _ ]
[We want $ 1 0 0 0 0 0 ]

24. marked or tampered with
[in unmarked ____ $ bills]

11. I will call you
[We will call you]

12. to instruct you on delivery
[with instructions]

21. Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I.,
[Do not contact the police]

22. will result
[will result in her death] [Do not contact the ______, speaking to anyone will result in her death]

28. Follow
29. our instructions and

28. getting her back.
[you will get her back]

 

[Tadpole12]

Soon I'll be banned from Websleuths

yeeess. I may have to report you......

 

[BBB167893]

You don't have to introduce him, he already knows the term and what it means.

Damn skippy! I've been up one side of this case and down the other. I know both arguments inside and out. And staging within staging is as simple as you can get.

 

[BBB167893]

SD, remind me to introduce you to Occam's Razor sometime. :woohoo:

Meaning what?