Reasons why you think it could be suicide

[jjenny]

I don't think Rebecca's shoplifting has anything to do with her death, suicide or homicide. But I am curious for one thing. Didn't JS and DS check Rebecca's background? I heard DS was especially cautious as to who would be around her son. Most people check background on nannies and house managers. Rebecca of course was not a household staff. But maybe they didn't think shoplifting was too big a deal.

According to the poster who was verified as having inside info, they did check RN's background.

 

[obody]

FWIW most people who knit or crochet know how to tie a slip knot, even if they don't know what it's called.

My DH and his family use slip knots to tie produce bags at the grocery store.

 

[MyBelle]

People do things that their family never thinks that they would. Like shoplifting. Like suicide.

And I think anyone in law enforcement understands and accepts that families often react that way.

JMO

 

[CDS22]

Homicidal hanging is very rare and the generally the victim needs to be unconscious or intoxicated for such an act to occur.

http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/hanging-signs

From the AR we know that RZ was not intoxicated and that they didn't think the bumps on her head were enough to render her unconcious or that serious.

 

[CDS22]

From the same link:

The victim may use a fixed knot or a slip knot, the latter being particularly efficient at compressing the airways and blood vessels because it tightens so quickly under gravity

.

RZ used slip knots.

 

[CDS22]

High hangings are more likely to cause death by vagal inhibition, owing to the sudden pressure on the neck. The victim tends to be pale in such cases. A low hanging is more likely to lead to asphyxia and there may be some facial congestion and a purple protruding tongue.

Reason why RZ's tongue wasn't protruding when she was found.

 

[CDS22]

One study found that Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders are significantly less likely than Caucasians to mention their mental health concerns to:
o
a friend or relative (12% vs. 25%),
o
a mental health professional (4% vs. 26%),
o
or a physician (2% vs. 13%).8
•
Asian Americans do not access mental health treatment as much as other racial/ethnic groups do, perhaps due to strong stigma related to mental illness. Emotional problems are viewed as shameful and distressing and this may limit help-seeking behaviors. Asian Americans also tend to rely on family to handle problems.9
•
Asian American and Pacific Islanders are concerned about negatively affecting their social network which keeps them from seeking help.10
Ethnic and Cultural Considerations
•
For nearly half of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, access to the mental health care system is limited due to their lack of English proficiency and to a shortage of providers with appropriate language skills.11
This report was funded by the Suicide Prevention Resource Center, which is supported by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration
(SAMHSA), U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (Grant No. 1 U79SM55029-01).
•
Many Asian American and Pacific Islander cultures view the psychological and physical as highly interconnected, unlike the common view in Western cultures. Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders may be more likely to express emotional distress through physical problems and to believe that physical problems cause emotional disturbances.12

http://www.sprc.org/library/asian.pi.facts.pdf

 

[rosemary]

High hangings are more likely to cause death by vagal inhibition, owing to the sudden pressure on the neck. The victim tends to be pale in such cases. A low hanging is more likely to lead to asphyxia and there may be some facial congestion and a purple protruding tongue.

Reason why RZ's tongue wasn't protruding when she was found.

but according to the autopsy report, her face was not pale, it was congested.

 

[rosemary]

One study found that Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders are significantly less likely than Caucasians to mention their mental health concerns to:
o
a friend or relative (12% vs. 25%),
o
a mental health professional (4% vs. 26%),
o
or a physician (2% vs. 13%).8
•
Asian Americans do not access mental health treatment as much as other racial/ethnic groups do, perhaps due to strong stigma related to mental illness. Emotional problems are viewed as shameful and distressing and this may limit help-seeking behaviors. Asian Americans also tend to rely on family to handle problems.9
•
Asian American and Pacific Islanders are concerned about negatively affecting their social network which keeps them from seeking help.10
Ethnic and Cultural Considerations
•
For nearly half of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, access to the mental health care system is limited due to their lack of English proficiency and to a shortage of providers with appropriate language skills.11
This report was funded by the Suicide Prevention Resource Center, which is supported by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration
(SAMHSA), U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (Grant No. 1 U79SM55029-01).
•
Many Asian American and Pacific Islander cultures view the psychological and physical as highly interconnected, unlike the common view in Western cultures. Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders may be more likely to express emotional distress through physical problems and to believe that physical problems cause emotional disturbances.12

http://www.sprc.org/library/asian.pi.facts.pdf

But according to another study:

Overall rates for completed suicide among Asian Americans have reflected lower or similar rates compared with other ethnic groups. According to the Centers for Disease Control, in 2005 the age-adjusted rate for completed suicide among Asian Americans of all age groups was 5.24 deaths per 100,000. While this rate is lower than that of White Non-Hispanics (12.93 per 100,00), it is similar to the rates for Black Non-Hispanics (5.37 per 100,00) and Hispanics (5.60 per 100,000) (Centers for Disease Control, 2005).

Shiang et al. (1997) also found that the national rate for completed suicide among all Asian American women was 3.4 per 100,000, but the rates were highest (29.8 per 100,000) for Asian women 85 years and older. Shiang's study also found that completed suicide rates were highest among Asian American men between the ages of 75-84 years old (42.1 per 100,000), over four times the rate for Asian American men overall (8.8 per 100,000).

While the overall lifetime percentages for ideation (8.6%) and attempt (2.5%) among Asian Americans are lower than national lifetime estimates (13.5% and 4.6%, respectively) (Kessler, 1999), a very different finding is evident when Asian Americans are disaggregated by sex and nativity. US-born Asian American women (15.9%) have much higher percentage for ideation than the national estimates.
Accordingly, U.S. born women are the group that appears to be most at-risk for suicidal behaviors. While immigrant men and women appear to be less at-risk for suicidal behaviors than their US-born counterparts,


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2756301/?tool=pubmed

 

[rosemary]

http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/hanging-signs

From the AR we know that RZ was not intoxicated and that they didn't think the bumps on her head were enough to render her unconcious or that serious.

According to Dr. Cyril Wecht:

"A blow or blows sufficient to produce subgaleal, subscalpular hemorrhage could be sufficient for someone to be knocked out, just temporarily, not to produce any damage to the brain, not to cause any prolonged unconsciousness; but one cannot say,"

 

[CDS22]

According to Dr. Cyril Wecht:

Cyril Wecht is paid by the family to contest the suicide report.

 

[CDS22]

But according to another study:

Overall rates for completed suicide among Asian Americans have reflected lower or similar rates compared with other ethnic groups. According to the Centers for Disease Control, in 2005 the age-adjusted rate for completed suicide among Asian Americans of all age groups was 5.24 deaths per 100,000. While this rate is lower than that of White Non-Hispanics (12.93 per 100,00), it is similar to the rates for Black Non-Hispanics (5.37 per 100,00) and Hispanics (5.60 per 100,000) (Centers for Disease Control, 2005).

Shiang et al. (1997) also found that the national rate for completed suicide among all Asian American women was 3.4 per 100,000, but the rates were highest (29.8 per 100,000) for Asian women 85 years and older. Shiang's study also found that completed suicide rates were highest among Asian American men between the ages of 75-84 years old (42.1 per 100,000), over four times the rate for Asian American men overall (8.8 per 100,000).

While the overall lifetime percentages for ideation (8.6%) and attempt (2.5%) among Asian Americans are lower than national lifetime estimates (13.5% and 4.6%, respectively) (Kessler, 1999), a very different finding is evident when Asian Americans are disaggregated by sex and nativity. US-born Asian American women (15.9%) have much higher percentage for ideation than the national estimates.
Accordingly, U.S. born women are the group that appears to be most at-risk for suicidal behaviors. While immigrant men and women appear to be less at-risk for suicidal behaviors than their US-born counterparts,


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2756301/?tool=pubmed

Thank you for those statistics, but the ones I posted were not about how many American-born Asians commit suicide, but about how many Asian-born Americans (which is what RZ was) feel they can't discuss depression and mental health issues with others, and that they often hide depression and suicidal feelings from their families. That is what I believe RZ did. (Opinion alert for the last sentence).

 

[stilettos]

Cyril Wecht is paid by the family to contest the suicide report.

I may be wrong...but I believe that Cyril Wecht gave his opinion in the media about the autopsy report findings before the family retained him.

 

[CDS22]

I may be wrong...but I believe that Cyril Wecht gave his opinion in the media about the autopsy report findings before the family retained him.

<modsnip>this says otherwise:

But Zahau's relatives don't believe she killed herself and want the case reopened. They have hired an attorney who retained famed forensics expert Dr. Cyril Wecht to look over the reports.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/health/questions-raised-rebecca-zahaus-suicide

He has also said that he hasn't ruled out suicide. From the same article:

"I'm not saying this is a homicide," Wecht told the New York Daily News. "I don't want to be premature or make wild criticisms."

<modsnip>.

 

[thinkingstraight]

Lawyers can hire an expert to fit their position. Experts are a dime a dozen in that regard.

 

[CDS22]

Lawyers can hire an expert to fit their position. Experts are a dime a dozen in that regard.

Plus other experts who are not being paid have come out in support of the police findings.

 

[elementry]

People do things that their family never thinks that they would. Like shoplifting. Like suicide.

Would you also posit that people sometimes Murder too, and the act might surprise even those who know them? Just taking the flip-side of your supposition.......

 

[CDS22]

Would you also posit that people sometimes Murder too, and the act might surprise even those who know them? Just taking the flip-side of your supposition.......

This thread is for why RZ's death could be suicide, not for debates about why it is murder. There is another thread for that purpose.

 

[elementry]

This thread is for why RZ's death could be suicide, not for debates about why it is murder. There is another thread for that purpose.

<modsnip>. The question had to do with your supposition regarding suicides, and whether there is a larger supposition pertaining to other surprising actions. It's not claiming murder, but rather testing the suicide assumption. I may misunderstand this thread: it's only for pro-suicide arguments, and not to test those arguments? Which thread should I respond to your point on in that case?

 

[CDS22]

< mod snip >

The single largest psychological factor found in approximately 1/3 of shoplifters studied is &#8220;depression&#8221;. This helps to explain why so many individuals steal from stores on their birthday and/or around holiday times.

http://www.shopliftingprevention.org/whatnaspoffers/nrc/psychologicalstudies.htm

And a great link on depression and suicide:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/805459-overview