Reasons why you think it could be suicide

[freespeech]

A good "once over" with a vacuum cleaner and a "wipe down" would have taken care of any evidence at the crime scene.

Inparadise, I agree as well. A "hazemat" suit as suggested by a previous poster would not have been necessary here. The carpet could have easily been vacuumed and surfaces wiped down. I have read that dry sheets are especially effective in removing fingerprints. I recall seeing a dryer sheet in one of the evidence photos. I wonder if the knives, door frames etc. were tested for dryer sheet residue. That should have been an easy test.

I tell you what I think is so odd about this case is that sdso failed to perform an elementary and basic investigation. Something as simple as checking for dryer sheet residue on the knife blades doesn't seem to have been done. The standard and unscientific sdso response to answer why something was not done is to state that they didn't do it because all the evidence pointed to suicide. The problem with that is when you try to extract their suicide evidence there isn't any because none was tested so you end up going into an illogical, reasonless and circular argument. This is why I feel they should have a brand new investigation here to wash away the previously unfounded sdso assertions. As long as sdso has any say-so in the matter they are going to try to avoid embarrassment by defending their erroneous findings.

However, sdso cannot go back and try to edit their blunders because Bremner and the Zahaus have the original version of what was done. I wonder if the Zauhas will ever release those records to the public. I would think that they would have that right if they wanted to do that, no?

 

[Inparadise]

Inparadise, I agree as well. A 'hazmat" suit as suggested by a previous poster would not have been necessary here. the carpet could have easily been vacuumed and surfaces wiped down. I read that dry sheets were especially effective in removing fingerprints. I recall seeing a dryer sheet in one of the evidence photos. I wonder if the knives, door frames etc. were tested for dryer sheet residue. That should have been an easy test.

I tell you what I think is so odd about this case is that an elementary and basic investigation failed to be performed. Like something as simple as checking for dryer sheet residue on the knofe blades.

Fortunately, sdso cannot go back and try to fix their blunders by editing the records since Bremner and the Zahaus have the original version of what was done. I wonder if the Zauhas will ever release those records to the public. I would think that they would have that right if they wanted to do that, no?

One of the other things that LE should have done right away was to inspect the vacuum cleaner bag..........but they didn't. It doesn't appear that they did much of anything except stand around and do as little as possible while waiting for orders from their <mod snip> leader Gore.

 

[MyBelle]

Bourne, your analysis is correct in it's conclusion. Thank you for clearly explaining the actual physiological dynamic that occurred due to the tee shirt ligature by using scientific reasoning.

I agree that if the autopsy report correctly stated that the tee shirt sleeves were wrapped around Rebecca's neck three times and knotted twice then that ligature would have choked and suffocated her before she would have been able to get to the balcony to jump. Based on the tee shirt ligature alone and without considering all the other anomalous factors such as the lack of balcony dust disturbance, unidentified footprints on the balcony, unusual rope bindings and et al, that would be enough to rule a rush to judgement in LE's unscientifically reasoned suicide determination.

A new and independent investigation and with fresh eyes could answer the Zahau family's and general public's questions here. Hopefully, the next group of investigators will back up their statements and conclusions with scientific data that can be rationally explained, proven and duplicated with an actual demonstration/re-enactment of either suicide or murder, which ever is shown by rational and provable methods. That would be compelling and convincing evidence, imo.

However, as it stands sdso has not given rational or provable explanations thus far so all the evidence seems to point to murder. This is not only my opinion but is also questioned by trained and renown pathologists and doctors such as Maurice Godwin, Cyril Wecht and others as well.

The topic of THIS thread is why some of us think it is suicide.

I don't believe LE needed much science and instead relied on just common sense to conclude a loosely-wrapped shirt whether knotted or not is not going to strangle or choke someone to death in a suicide.

JMO

 

[freespeech]

The topic of THIS thread is why some of us think it is suicide.

I don't believe LE needed much science and instead relied on just common sense to conclude a loosely-wrapped shirt whether knotted or not is not going to strangle or choke someone to death in a suicide.

JMO

If sdso did not need science to prove their case then why did Gore use the "science doesn't lie" mantra to support his findings. Why didn't he instead say" common sense doesn't lie?"

I apologize if you do not agree with me but i don't understand jumping to a conclusion based on Gore's common sense make common sense. How would I assume or know Gore had any common sense. I believe scientific evidence would be the stronger, more valid and generally accepted answer here.

 

[freespeech]

<mod snip>.

Justice be served, I never knew about abductive reasoning until i read your other comment about it. It is a very interesting concept.

I don't know what kind of time you have but it would be wonderful if you started an informational thread on that concept and others. We could all add various information and knowledge as to how an investigation is actually done professionally. We could title it Information on Profession Investigatory Technique and Concepts or something to that effect. It would be a good go to reference to use for guiding the flow of our discussions here, no?

Thanks again for very useful information on this fascinating subject.

 

[CuriousGeorgia]

Inparadise, I agree as well. A "hazemat" suit as suggested by a previous poster would not have been necessary here. The carpet could have easily been vacuumed and surfaces wiped down. I have read that dry sheets are especially effective in removing fingerprints. I recall seeing a dryer sheet in one of the evidence photos. I wonder if the knives, door frames etc. were tested for dryer sheet residue. That should have been an easy test.

I tell you what I think is so odd about this case is that sdso failed to perform an elementary and basic investigation. Something as simple as checking for dryer sheet residue on the knife blades doesn't seem to have been done. The standard and unscientific sdso response to answer why something was not done is to state that they didn't do it because all the evidence pointed to suicide. The problem with that is when you try to extract their suicide evidence there isn't any because none was tested so you end up going into an illogical, reasonless and circular argument. This is why I feel they should have a brand new investigation here to wash away the previously unfounded sdso assertions. As long as sdso has any say-so in the matter they are going to try to avoid embarrassment by defending their erroneous findings.

However, sdso cannot go back and try to edit their blunders because Bremner and the Zahaus have the original version of what was done. I wonder if the Zauhas will ever release those records to the public. I would think that they would have that right if they wanted to do that, no?

You and I and everyone else except those that have seen the files, don't have any CLUE what was checked and what was NOT checked.

The Zahaus will NEVER release the files to the public because of the information about Rebecca that they do not want you to see. THAT is why Anne Bremner shut up after Gore said he would release ALL the files if she kept releasing things out of context, things did not give a FAIR or TRUE depiction of the entire investigation. Have no doubt, there is PLENTY more in those files that show Rebecca was suicidal. IMO.

There will NEVER be another investigation. The physical and circumstantial evidence was overwhelming. Hopefully, someday the Zahaus will come out of their denial, and realize that.

 

[CuriousGeorgia]

One of the other things that LE should have done right away was to inspect the vacuum cleaner bag..........but they didn't. It doesn't appear that they did much of anything except stand around and do as little as possible while waiting for orders from their <mod snip> leader Gore.

How do you know they didn't check the vacuum cleaner bags? Have you seen the files?

 

[MissJ]

If sdso did not need science to prove their case then why did Gore use the "science doesn't lie" mantra to support his findings. Why didn't he instead say" common sense doesn't lie?"

I apologize if you do not agree with me but i don't understand jumping to a conclusion based on Gore's common sense make common sense. How would I assume or know Gore had any common sense. I believe scientific evidence would be the stronger, more valid and generally accepted answer here.

Good point! It is very unusual for an individual to hang themselves while nude. Even more so if the individual is female.

 

[CuriousGeorgia]

Good point! It is very unusual for an individual to hang themselves while nude. Even more so if the individual is female.

Rebecca slept in the nude. When a person hangs themselves nude it usually means they feel guilty about something and/or they want to shock who finds them and those that survive them.

 

[CuriousGeorgia]

Bourne posted this on the murder thread, "The presentation at the crime scene of two knives, gloves, paintbrushes, painting cryptic message on the bedroom door, multiple bindings to Rebecca's wrists and ankles, multiple wrapping around her neck with a single t-shirt, double-knotting, noose hanging, nudity, etc. are clearly staged for maximum dramatic benefit. An overkill IMO. Someone prone towards making the murder an unforgettable, crime-of-the-century melodrama evidently thought these ridiculous theatrics out."


Bourne, by Georgia, I think you've got it totally right with just one little exception:

"Someone prone towards making the suicide an unforgettable, crime-of-the-century melodrama evidently thought these ridiculous theatrics out."

 

[Betty P]

And I think Betty P's got it right too, over on the murder thread, she just has the perpetrator wrong:





Yes the killer did feel comfortable in her surroundings. They knew the only person home was asleep so did not have anxiety about being caught, and may have even wanted that person to wake up and find her right away. They took their time to do it the way they wanted. And that "they" was Rebecca Zahau.

The only problems with your theory are the same ones that have been brought up numerous times:

No prior signs of suicidal ideation

Inability of someone, especially someone with a limp, to tie themselves up hand and foot, gag themselves and place a noose around their neck and still be able to maintain their balance while hopping around. The SDSO demonstration was bogus because the "model" was allowed to use her arms and hands for balance while her feet were bound. See Dr. Phil.

Inability of someone bound,gagged and noosed to turn off the bedroom light and navigate their way in the dark across the room to the balcony

Inability of someone bound and gagged and noosed to maneuver themselves over the balcony and fall without disturbing the dust on the railing in more than a couple of small spots less than 1" wide.

Inability of someone bound and gagged and noosed to go head first over the balcony without receiving scrapes or injuries to the face and w/o leaving any DNA on the balcony railing.

Inability of someone bound and gagged and noosed to receive multiple stabbing wounds to their back from a bush behind them when their arms were drawn back in bindings, covering most of the area with their arms.

Inexplicable patterns of livor mortis that show settling of the blood in areas not related to a hanging death

that's just a small start, I'll provide you with some more.

 

[CuriousGeorgia]

Betty P, I'm trying to respect those that believe Rebecca was murdered by not posting why I think it was suicide with every post trying to prove murder. That is why I posted that here. Perhaps you should post your reply on the murder thread? I know Salem is getting very frustrated with us and I am trying to avoid conflict with those that do not believe the SDSO's ruling of suicide. TIA.

 

[Betty P]

Betty P, I'm trying to respect those that believe Rebecca was murdered by not posting why I think it was suicide with every post trying to prove murder. That is why I posted that here. Perhaps you should post your reply on the murder thread? I know Salem is getting very frustrated with us and I am trying to avoid conflict with those that do not believe the SDSO's ruling of suicide. TIA.

<modsnip>.

 

[CuriousGeorgia]

In that case, I'll answer you here. My answers are in bold.


No prior signs of suicidal ideation -
Happens all the time in 10-15% of suicides. Not evidence of murder.

Inability of someone, especially someone with a limp, to tie themselves up hand and foot, gag themselves and place a noose around their neck and still be able to maintain their balance while hopping around. The SDSO demonstration was bogus because the "model" was allowed to use her arms and hands for balance while her feet were bound. See Dr. Phil.
Rebecca may have had a slight limp, but she was in great physical shape and would have had no problem doing what she did, according to her trainer, Reed Holman. He would have certainly known the physical shape she was in and whether of not she was capable. Also, CBS8 in San Diego did a reenactment and the girl did it in less that 30 minutes. Not hard at all, she said, and plenty of time to change your mind.

Inability of someone bound,gagged and noosed to turn off the bedroom light and navigate their way in the dark across the room to the balcony

Rebecca knew the room in the light and in the dark, and would have put the noose on, put the gag in, and put her hands behind her back to secure them at the balcony railing.

Inability of someone bound and gagged and noosed to maneuver themselves over the balcony and fall without disturbing the dust on the railing in more than a couple of small spots less than 1" wide.

The SDSO believe one spot was from her torso, and one was from the rope and have released photos of that. See their website. She easily went over the balcony. It was not a struggle for her.

Inability of someone bound and gagged and noosed to go head first over the balcony without receiving scrapes or injuries to the face and w/o leaving any DNA on the balcony railing.

Her torso touched the balcony, not her face. Just because someone touches something does not mean they will leave DNA.

Inability of someone bound and gagged and noosed to receive multiple stabbing wounds to their back from a bush behind them when their arms were drawn back in bindings, covering most of the area with their arms.

The ME that examined Rebecca said, "There were also scattered abrasions or scrapes on her back and her legs and these were consistent with her impacting or interacting with large plants under the balcony against the exterior of the house. You can see that in exhibit marked courtyard in the top photo. There is no evidence of a struggle or sexual assault. And there were no other significant injuries. The bottoms of her feet were dirty, consistent with having been standing on the balcony. There was no toxicological or physical evidence that she was rendered unconscious or incapacitated prior to the hanging. Finally her hand was easily removed from the wrist bindings. I personally removed it and it was just a simple matter of slipping her hand out, the bindings were not tight. And as was already pointed out, the end of the rope that would've been used to tighten the bindings was actually in one of her hands."

Inexplicable patterns of livor mortis that show settling of the blood in areas not related to a hanging death

Of course she had livor mortis in her legs. She was lying on the grass for over 12 hours. <modsnip>.

 

[CocoChanel]

I was glued to this topic a year ago, and was among those who could not imagine RZ taking her own life. Though I have not been reading here as regularly since that time, I have now had the benefit of time to consider all possibilities. I have changed my opinion now, and believe that Max's accident, and the circumstances surrounding it that RZ knew and that we are not privy to but can only surmise, set into motion a terrible spiral downward of RZ's emotional state, to where suicide felt like her only option. It breaks my heart to think of the pain she must have been feeling to choose this act. I do not absolve others' influence on her actions. Much in the same way we see bullies wreck havoc on the self-worth of children, I think that dynamic might have been in play here. No, I am not calling Max's relatives 'bullies', and I do not blame them for lashing out to hold SOMEone responsible for the tragic accident that caused Max's fatal injuries. Whatever responsibilty RZ was feeling, and I believe it would be human nature to feel some if one were the only adult in attendance when it happened, compounded by any pressure from the family to explain/take back/fix/'pay for' the accident, could very well have tipped her over to seeing suicide as a way to answer most of that. Bless her. Though we often say suicide is a permanent solution to a temorary problem, I think RZ saw this as a problem that would be with her forever. The dramatic nature of the suicide is a bit harder for me to come to terms with, but fits with the larger-than-life nature of this family's 'norm'.

Can't believe I have come around to this, but had to state it here. AND IT IS ALL JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Pasted that on the wrong thread. Not sure how to move it to the correct thread. My apologies.

 

[CuriousGeorgia]

JS and AS immediately began calling it suicide. Others then followed suit.

Others followed suit after all the physical evidence told them that as well. SDSO never said, "Well, Adam thinks it was suicide, so let's just call it that and go home early".

It is obvious in the search warrant for the cell phones that the Shacknais were being throughly investigated as possible POI's in the case. They were being looked at due to a possible HOMICIDE.

Again, I don't find it odd that someone seeing someone hanging (without even having a cup of coffee) would think it was suicide. And both Adam and Jonah were aware of Rebecca's mood the day before. So for them to automatically think suicide is pretty telling about her emotions the day before, IMO.

 

[inthedark14]

Others followed suit after all the physical evidence told them that as well. SDSO never said, "Well, Adam thinks it was suicide, so let's just call it that and go home early".

It is obvious in the search warrant for the cell phones that the Shacknais were being throughly investigated as possible POI's in the case. They were being looked at due to a possible HOMICIDE.

Again, I don't find it odd that someone seeing someone hanging (without even having a cup of coffee) would think it was suicide. And both Adam and Jonah were aware of Rebecca's mood the day before. So for them to automatically think suicide is pretty telling about her emotions the day before, IMO.

<modsnip>.

I would also think that her sister, who she spent quite a bit of time with on the phone would be well aware of her mood the day before. Her text messages show that as well.

Always, MOO

 

[CuriousGeorgia]

Her sister left in the early afternoon, and I would imagine Rebecca was trying to remain positive for her sister.

I'm sure that the text messages between Jonah and Rebecca that day tell the story of the REAL mood she was in. IMO.

<modsnip>. As you can see, many people believe in the SDSO ruling...even if it took them a while to get there. JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Her sister left in the early afternoon, and I would imagine Rebecca was trying to remain positive for her sister.

I'm sure that the text messages between Jonah and Rebecca that day tell the story of the REAL mood she was in. IMO.

<modsnip>. As you can see, many people believe in the SDSO ruling...even if it took them a while to get there. JMO

I agree. I just don't see any parent killing someone rather than allowing the police to at least investigate.