Retrieving wreckage from AirAsia Flight To Singapore- no survivors recovered

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  • #841
awq8501-2332z.jpg




.In hindsight it might be easy to look at it like that. But a part of the story that came out relativliy late, which adds perspective (besides being a pilot that has transversed, like thousands of others each day)was that he had just diverted around, to the left of one and then (radar in airplanes are forward viewing -) so if we back him up 20 minutes he saw system one ahead of him, diverted, and it looks as if coming around that a 600 mile (BBC) wide beast was on the other side of it. But becasue he just went around a big one he knew what was now behind him so it stuck me as it might have been kinda of like uturn and go right back into the one behind me or do the same with the one ahead of me.

BUt the real interesting thing that came out later was that in between the first and second one was a area of clear, super duper chilled air . See the white small area directly in front of them- that is the supercooled downdraft area.

Basically it is water droplets that are at freezing temp that have not frozen yet but do so instantly when hitting a object. Aircraft are very sensitive to ice on their surfaces - it interupts airflow and alters lift and drag. So imagine suddenly your wings are iceing at rapid and unsucpected rate, a beast is before you.

In areas where the super cooled droplets are is usually accompanied by down drafts. So in addition to the above he might have been hit when downdrafts as well. THe supercooled water would do the same when landing on the surface of the engines, (did one flame out?) so all his flying dynamics are changing, not for the good, quickly and this is before he got out of the supercooled area and attempted to penetrate the monster ahead of him.

We got to remember they are flying! Look what is ahead of him after the super cooled part, red bad part! Follwed by the purple black awful awful awful stuff. SO in a really short peroid of time these guys were slammed. It had to be a really scary ride for everyone as well.

Lets say the poor guys were busy. IT sure seems from where the wreckage was found, that they actually appearred to have kept an aircraft in extreme distress relativily stable for some two minutes - quite a feat it seems.

THey will both still get nailed tho investigative wise, with proceeding, but as long as the recorders were recording you guys are going to see how amazing this process is. We will know every single second, what happened, what knobs were clicked, what alarms were blaring, if it was raining, pouring, hailing, windsheild blownout, depresurazatoion, what the airplane itself was doing, what the flight crew thought was happening. Keep following, at least until the preliminary readout.

They usually make a animation from the prelimnary readouts (should be in the next two days if they were not damaged and recording) we all shall know all, in terms of the basics soon..........................

I'd like to be able to say I'm shocked and mortified that any airline allows flights to go through weather like that, but a friend flew to the Philippines right after Thanksgiving and was scheduled to begin his return trip the day the super typhoon was crossing his flight path to Manilla, neither airline he flew (to Manilla and then out of) altered one flight schedule and would not allow passengers to reschedule without a hefty fee. But the fact that so many flights were in the air that planes cannot even fly around these storms is just asking for disasters of this nature. So many lives lost and families left bereft, there just aren't words for the sadness and anger this inspires.
 
  • #842
  • #843
This calculator shows speed and time until impact.

I put height at 12,000 meters (~36,000 ft) and weight of the plane at 70,000 kg (full capacity is slightly higher but the plane was not completely full). I got:

Speed at impact: 484.97 m/s (meter per second) = 1,745.91 km/h (1,085 miles/hr)

Time until impact: 49.49 seconds


http://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed


I'm not 100% sure I did this right but I think so.


These are the specification of the Airbus 320-200:

http://www.airberlin.com/en-IN/site/seatplan.php?seatTyp=A320_200&LANG=eng


50 seconds of panic and terror :(
 
  • #844
thats cool can you do "it" starting with 120 seconds (that has been the number tossed around since she went off radar to impact?

This calculator shows speed and time until impact.

I put height at 12,000 meters (~36,000 ft) and weight of the plane at 70,000 kg (full capacity is slightly higher but the plane was not completely full). I got:

Speed at impact: 484.97 m/s (meter per second) = 1,745.91 km/h (1,085 miles/hr)

Time until impact: 49.49 seconds


http://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed


I'm not 100% sure I did this right but I think so.


These are the specification of the Airbus 320-200:

http://www.airberlin.com/en-IN/site/seatplan.php?seatTyp=A320_200&LANG=eng


50 seconds of panic and terror :(
 
  • #845
thanks for the picture

Having lived in Florida for many years we became accustomed to seeing these intensity colours and knowing what kind of weather was approaching...
. I was also quite impressed with our local meteorologists (when Hurricane Charley was approaching the west coast of Florida they broke away from Ntl forecast predictions of the storm, our local guys were correct in their prediction that the storm would turn early) ..
I have seen the 3 shades of Red, the pink and the purple which is intense to extreme weather
I have never seen white which indicates most extreme weather according to weather intensity guide...

What is the area that is Black/Grey area on the weather map?

This isn't regular doplar imaging - its super dooper stuff! The black is like worse than our deep red/purple basically horrible horrible horrile!
 
  • #846
Relieved but sad. Condolences to the loved ones and RIP to all those who lost their lives :rose:

And to those retrieving bodies, I don't know how they do it, such a painful task. MY gratitude goes out to all of them.

Condolences to the loved ones. Will be praying for those doing the recovery; especially in such bad weather.

awq8501-2332z.jpg




.In hindsight it might be easy to look at it like that. But a part of the story that came out relativliy late, which adds perspective (besides being a pilot that has transversed, like thousands of others each day)was that he had just diverted around, to the left of one and then (radar in airplanes are forward viewing -) so if we back him up 20 minutes he saw system one ahead of him, diverted, and it looks as if coming around that a 600 mile (BBC) wide beast was on the other side of it. But becasue he just went around a big one he knew what was now behind him so it stuck me as it might have been kinda of like uturn and go right back into the one behind me or do the same with the one ahead of me.

BUt the real interesting thing that came out later was that in between the first and second one was a area of clear, super duper chilled air . See the white small area directly in front of them- that is the supercooled downdraft area.

Basically it is water droplets that are at freezing temp that have not frozen yet but do so instantly when hitting a object. Aircraft are very sensitive to ice on their surfaces - it interupts airflow and alters lift and drag. So imagine suddenly your wings are iceing at rapid and unsucpected rate, a beast is before you.

In areas where the super cooled droplets are is usually accompanied by down drafts. So in addition to the above he might have been hit when downdrafts as well. THe supercooled water would do the same when landing on the surface of the engines, (did one flame out?) so all his flying dynamics are changing, not for the good, quickly and this is before he got out of the supercooled area and attempted to penetrate the monster ahead of him.

We got to remember they are flying! Look what is ahead of him after the super cooled part, red bad part! Follwed by the purple black awful awful awful stuff. SO in a really short peroid of time these guys were slammed. It had to be a really scary ride for everyone as well.

Lets say the poor guys were busy. IT sure seems from where the wreckage was found, that they actually appearred to have kept an aircraft in extreme distress relativily stable for some two minutes - quite a feat it seems.

THey will both still get nailed tho investigative wise, with proceeding, but as long as the recorders were recording you guys are going to see how amazing this process is. We will know every single second, what happened, what knobs were clicked, what alarms were blaring, if it was raining, pouring, hailing, windsheild blownout, depresurazatoion, what the airplane itself was doing, what the flight crew thought was happening. Keep following, at least until the preliminary readout.

They usually make a animation from the prelimnary readouts (should be in the next two days if they were not damaged and recording) we all shall know all, in terms of the basics soon..........................

Thank you CARIIS for your post!
 
  • #847
One expert on CNN (sorry can't remember the name) said it looks most likely that the plane went into the water intact.

But think what likely happened next: a plane falling from such great altitude at terminal velocity (I think?) into a shallow sea (appr. 120 -150 ft) is like jumping from a 30 ft board into a 3 inch swimming pool, head first. Surely you will break bones.

They keep saying they saw an outline of an airliner in the water. Has anyone seen this image? I would love to know the direct debris field - it tells much. BUt the fact that they are saying they have seen 40 bodies, I get an image of them somewhat together (is that correct?) which to me indicates a pretty amazing stable, all things considered, impact. The fact that my sense from what is being reported is that we are getting intact bodies is also signifgant. I am not squimish, I have only seen one body --anyone have links to others. That too is important. CLothing being shaved off is pretty common.


Or to put it another way, are your guys notions based upon what we are being told at this point, is that most of the debris located is within an area as oppossed to widely dispersed, but i cant locate any other image than a 2 by 4 ? what looks like a purse'/life vest, and the one body.

Heard that a door and slide (they are stored inside door so that makes sense, and they inflate automatically, so I do not think if it was inflated it translates to someone launching one as oppossed to it inflating upon impact with water.

i wish someone who knows how to do that tod thing would go over there and look about and tell us!

Closest to this thus far was value jet- which impacted at high velocity. There were no intact bodies at all. None. Some never found at all even body parts. They used empty coffins. So I def do not think we are talking about vertical direct in nosefirst "dive". And the fact that he kept her airborne seems to indicate some sort of control of her - only a reasonably intact aircraft can respond to pilot inputs- here is direct site of ValuJet impact
images


thats it- all that was there - an entire jetliner poof
images


She went in nose first and fast . 500 plus.Very fast. Everyone on this one were already dead from carbon monoside and being burned.



I think Asia was more "gentle" relativly speaking

google images
 
  • #848
thats cool can you do "it" starting with 120 seconds (that has been the number tossed around since she went off radar to impact?


I don't know. I only can insert weight and height in this one. But there might be other calculators where you can change the variables.
 
  • #849
They keep saying they saw an outline of an airliner in the water. Has anyone seen this image? I would love to know the direct debris field - it tells much. BUt the fact that they are saying they have seen 40 bodies, I get an image of them somewhat together (is that correct?) which to me indicates a pretty amazing stable, all things considered, impact. The fact that my sense from what is being reported is that we are getting intact bodies is also signifgant. I am not squimish, I have only seen one body --anyone have links to others. That too is important. CLothing being shaved off is pretty common.


Or to put it another way, are your guys notions based upon what we are being told at this point, is that most of the debris located is within an area as oppossed to widely dispersed, but i cant locate any other image than a 2 by 4 ? what looks like a purse'/life vest, and the one body.

Heard that a door and slide (they are stored inside door so that makes sense, and they inflate automatically, so I do not think if it was inflated it translates to someone launching one as oppossed to it inflating upon impact with water.

i wish someone who knows how to do that tod thing would go over there and look about and tell us!


I would go to tomnod but it always freezes my browser.
 
  • #850
I know many prayers have been said for the lives lost, and for their families, but I think we should also pray for the rescuers. Not only for their safety, but for their hearts, I can't imagine the toll this must take on them emotionally as they continue to pull these poor people from the ocean so they can have a final resting place.
 
  • #851
Ty for the Ty!!

Condolences to the loved ones. Will be praying for those doing the recovery; especially in such bad weather.





Thank you CARIIS for your post!
 
  • #852
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/a...es-don-t-live-stream-black-box-data-1.2586966

Two Canadian companies have developed new technology.

There are options for live streaming information based on a catastrophic event aboard an aircraft and the live streaming would cost about $5-7 per minute according to this information:

''AFIRS system doesn't stream black box data for every hour of every flight. It only begins streaming data once an irregular event has occurred, which reduces the satellite transmission costs significantly.


Hayden says that based on Iridium's pricing, it would cost about $5 to $7 US per minute to transmit black box data via their satellites to the ground.


He estimates that if this technology had been on board the missing Malaysian Airlines flight and live-streaming for the estimated seven hours after the flight first experienced a problem, it would have cost about $3,000.

Given how much time, money and effort has been expended on the luckless search for MH370's black box, the cost of operating a live-streaming version seems like a trifle, says U of T's Perovic.''

We dont need all that data transmitted. We just need the stinking GPS location transmitted like once every 30 seconds.

Sure, it would be nice to transmit as much as possible, but the latest current location is predominantly what is needed so we can find these accidents quickly and not have to guess based on last known radar images. Once we find the plane, then we can rescue any survivors and retrieve the black boxes to get the rest of the info.

The critical thing we do not get is the current exact location of the darn plane. It should be much cheaper than his figures I would guess to only have to transmit GPS coordinates only.
 
  • #853
Condolences to the loved ones. Will be praying for those doing the recovery; especially in such bad weather.

Thank you CARIIS for your post!


DITTO. Condolences for all on board and their families. And thanks too to Cariis for all the neat information.
 
  • #854
We dont need all that data transmitted. We just need the stinking GPS location transmitted like once every 30 seconds.

Sure, it would be nice to transmit as much as possible, but the latest current location is predominantly what is needed so we can find these accidents quickly and not have to guess based on last known radar images. Once we find the plane, then we can rescue any survivors and retrieve the black boxes to get the rest of the info.

The critical thing we do not get is the current exact location of the darn plane. It should be much cheaper than his figures I would guess to only have to transmit GPS coordinates only.

What is different about this new technology is that it is ''delivered only when required'' as in a sudden event and shouldn't be that expensive.....
 
  • #855
Surprised the plane didn't take out several boats in the area!
 
  • #856
Surprised the plane didn't take out several boats in the area!


good point! there were reports of two emergency transmissions too and it was determined the emergency transmissions were not from the plane....
 
  • #857
Humm Soucie on CNn (hes good!) is bringing us back around. He just messed up my conclusion that what little we have found, being percieved as being in a typically small area might be actually just the opposite - which means we may have to back up to inflight breakup. His contention is basically everything that has been found is pretty much only from the cargo area, and a door off might be indicative of in air explosion . HOw far apart the stuff is gives altitude of plane when it broke off etc . THe bag thing is actually a maintence bag that is in the belly of the plane per him! He says its not like we have found antyhing from anywhere else from another area of the aircraft. In the past this does indicate in flight breakup as stuff that falls off first is at the beginning of the debris trail, stuff that is heavier and bigger next, etc. It kind leaves a line which ends up telling very clearly exactly what was happening to both the plane itself and the occupants. Humm INteresting -

I am visual. this is perfect for trying to say what he was saying!he is great and an expert. He is saying (let just put this all under water!)
mh17-debris-location.png


He is saying, he is starting to think that (Lets just use "vertical tail") as what we have seen thus far, BUT that as we progress its going to end up (under water obvisouly) looking like this, which is back to inflight breakup. BUT out of the 40 bodies have any of you heard anything about their condition - were they intact?

https://www.google.com/search?q=deb...2Fmalaysia-flight-mh17-boeing-777.htm;480;272
 
  • #858
This calculator shows speed and time until impact.

I put height at 12,000 meters (~36,000 ft) and weight of the plane at 70,000 kg (full capacity is slightly higher but the plane was not completely full). I got:

Speed at impact: 484.97 m/s (meter per second) = 1,745.91 km/h (1,085 miles/hr)

Time until impact: 49.49 seconds


http://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed


I'm not 100% sure I did this right but I think so.


These are the specification of the Airbus 320-200:

http://www.airberlin.com/en-IN/site/seatplan.php?seatTyp=A320_200&LANG=eng


50 seconds of panic and terror :(

I am pretty sure if the plane fell out of the sky at cruising altitude and if the pilot was not able to fly it much on the way down, then TERMINAL VELOCITY would be reached.

The Terminal Velocity is a fairly complex equation based on the mass of an object and based on drag coefficient (i.e., wind resistance, etc.) but basically it is safe to say the average speed at hitting the water would be a maximum of about 200 MPH. Below are more exact figures and information about Terminal Velocity.

The terminal velocity of a skydiver in a belly-to-earth (i.e., face down) free-fall position is about 195 km/h (122 mph)

Higher speeds can be attained if the skydiver pulls in his or her limbs (see also freeflying). In this case, the terminal velocity increases to about 320 km/h (200 mph) which is almost the terminal velocity of the Peregrine Falcon diving down on its prey.

The same terminal velocity is reached for a typical .30-06 bullet dropping downwards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity
 
  • #859
What is different about this new technology is that it is ''delivered only when required'' as in a sudden event and shouldn't be that expensive.....

JMO but i think that would be a total mistake to try to transmit the information only when required because that is another point of possible failure. We have seen time + time again that things just dont work right when accidents happen. IMO, they just need something very simple and to transmit the GPS location all the time in a fairly frequent basis. Once every 30 seconds would be good enough for me, although even more frequently would be better. Just the location is all that is needed IMO.
 
  • #860
JMO but i think that would be a total mistake to try to transmit the information only when required because that is another point of possible failure. We have seen time + time again that things just dont work right when accidents happen. IMO, they just need something very simple and to transmit the GPS location all the time in a fairly frequent basis. Once every 30 seconds would be good enough for me, although even more frequently would be better. Just the location is all that is needed IMO.

Sorry to reply to my own post, but let me give a good example of why it would not be a good idea to try to transmit only when a "catastrophic event" happens.

Lets assume an airplane is hit by a missile (exactly what happened in Ukraine). I would be willing to bet that their device would be immediately blown apart by the missile and it would not have time to transmit anything.
 
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