Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #11

[Simply Southern]

So yes, of course ending the war is best for everyone in Ukraine, Russia, Europe, US and elsewhere. I think the concerns here really are more about how Putin is allowed to take and if the diplomats and politicians can work out a way that is slightly less harsh for Ukraine, and slightly less rewarding for Putin.

I totally agree. The only leader I've heard reach out is Trump. Have others tried to reason with Putin?

Can't hold the US/Trump responsibility because a dictator will not concede. Putin won or will win clearly, all of Europe knows this. Europe's just trying to stop him from inching closer to their countries. If Putin doesn't get the deal he wants, exactly the way he wants it, he will just continue to destroy Ukraine. The only thing that will stop him is a nuclear missile and he will just hide in this bunker and blow the rest of the world up.

Should we threaten Putin with a nuclear weapon if he doesn't agree to give back land and end the war? He clearly will not negotiate. You can't cut a deal with somebody that will not negotiate.
Moo

 

[Warwick1991]

If the US sends in military support they will have to have a place to work from. Everything in Ukraine is destroyed. They will need barracks the house/feed thousands of military, hospital to support military personnel, storage/repair facilities for equipment (tanks/vehicles), an entire ground and air communication system, currently they're working off of starlink, and more. They will need a fully operational Air Base, to get large cargo planes in and out, house military aircraft, the list is endless. They will need naval support, to protect the ports that will need to rebuild. You can't provide military support, in war torn country, without the basic necessities. It's not like we can run a shuttle bus/planes in and out. Russia could easily start shooting down the planes, block the ports. Ukraine's entire infrastructure is destroyed.

You are correct the US does have bases in the above countries. They are there to protect those countries. When the US agrees to provide support, on a long-term basis, after a war, we prove the full package. We provide everything needed. We stand ready, fully able and willing to support these countries.

Yea, Zelenskyy could have it all but he wants it for free. He wants hard working middle class citizens to give up another 20 to 50 a paycheck to pay. We are saying no. NATO and most European country are saying, we can give a little. In order for European countries to pick up the bill for Ukraine security, it would create a very high tax burden on their citizens. They know this, that is why they have not offered up billions of dollars for support.

All by opinion looking at it from a financial point of view, not only with the US but all Ukraine allies.

Ukraine is not completely destroyed - it is the largest country in Europe and still has vast areas that have not been destroyed. Its airports are closed for civilian use due to air safety considerations, not because they’re destroyed. The Ukrainian air force is operating from its own bases. It receives equipment by both land and air routes. It has recently received new aircraft from European countries. See: Ukraine receives French and Dutch fighter jets – DW – 02/06/2025

There is no need for the US to build infrastructure and bases in Ukraine as the situation stands today, and Ukraine itself hasn’t requested direct US or other foreign involvement on its territory. The problem of nuclear brinkmanship has always loomed large in this conflict, and Zelensky has been quite realistic about his options.

What is your source for stating that Zelensky has announced that he wants aid for free? I cannot find any source for this in any mainstream media.

JMO

 

[branmuffin]

Yes, other countries haven't been immune to financial/economic costs from this war either. It demoralises people in other countries. I'm in the UK and gas/electricity prices rose massively after the invasion of Ukraine. It's cost the government/taxpayers/consumers a lot of money, and then there's the money for arms and training Ukrainian troops. The UK, Poland and other nations have taken in a lot of people from Ukraine who wanted to get out to safety due to the bombing.

So yes, of course ending the war is best for everyone in Ukraine, Russia, Europe, US and elsewhere. I think the concerns here really are more about how Putin is allowed to take and if the diplomats and politicians can work out a way that is slightly less harsh for Ukraine, and slightly less rewarding for Putin.

I don't think the price of energy in UK will return to the pre-invasion prices. That hardly ever happens. Just like the price of buildings supplies didn't revert back to pre-Covid prices in Canada. Prior to Covid companies like Home Depot were buying 500 board feet of 2 x 4s for $500. During Covid that went up to $1400. Now people are paying $4 for a 2 x 4 instead of 2.50 like they were in 2020. That's a 60% increase. So, yeah, they went down but not to where they were and certainly not to the inflation rate. This articles reinforces that premise. So for Zelensky caving in to either Putin or Trump doesn't guarantee anything other than to indicate to two belligerents who see everything as transactional what price you are willing to pay for your convenience.

Can the UK ever return to pre-Ukraine war prices?... | Resolve Energy

In the UK, the impact has been particularly pronounced, causing a sharp increase in energy, food, and raw material prices. As businesses grapple with these rising costs, many are asking: Can the UK ever go back to pre-Ukraine war prices? And what does thi

www.resolveenergy.co.uk

 

[Cedars]

If the US sends in military support they will have to have a place to work from. Everything in Ukraine is destroyed. They will need barracks the house/feed thousands of military, hospital to support military personnel, storage/repair facilities for equipment (tanks/vehicles), an entire ground and air communication system, currently they're working off of starlink, and more. They will need a fully operational Air Base, to get large cargo planes in and out, house military aircraft, the list is endless. They will need naval support, to protect the ports that will need to rebuild. You can't provide military support, in war torn country, without the basic necessities. It's not like we can run a shuttle bus/planes in and out. Russia could easily start shooting down the planes, block the ports. Ukraine's entire infrastructure is destroyed.

You are correct the US does have bases in the above countries. They are there to protect those countries. When the US agrees to provide support, on a long-term basis, after a war, we prove the full package. We provide everything needed. We stand ready, fully able and willing to support these countries.

Yea, Zelenskyy could have it all but he wants it for free. He wants hard working middle class citizens to give up another 20 to 50 a paycheck to pay. We are saying no. NATO and most European country are saying, we can give a little. In order for European countries to pick up the bill for Ukraine security, it would create a very high tax burden on their citizens. They know this, that is why they have not offered up billions of dollars for support.

All by opinion looking at it from a financial point of view, not only with the US but all Ukraine allies.

I don't agree it's that kind of war, or that Ukraine is asking for that.

Like all invasions, it's a war of attrition. For eg, Afganistan is a militarily very weak country, but after many, many years first the Soviets and then the Americans gave up their attempted invasions.

What Ukraine wants is negotiations along the lines of - we'll let you have that, and in exchange we want this.

Likely, Ukraine might allow Russia to keep the Eastern territory it has taken, in exchange for a permanent peace treaty/non-agression agreement.

But that agreement would have to be ratified by NATO and other allies guanteeing they will (again) come to Ukraine's aid if Russia breaks it and (again) invades beyond the new border.

 

[Dotta]

From my country's MSM

"Musk Responds to Media Reports on Ukraine: ​

'It's Not True'.​

Elon Musk claims that
Reuters is lying about Starlinks for Ukraine. -

'That's not true' -
he wrote on the X service.

Earlier, Reuters reported that the US threatened Ukraine with access to the system.

'This is not true.
Reuters is lying'.

Starlink,
Elon Musk's satellite system,
plays a key role in providing Ukraine with internet connectivity,
which is especially important in the context of the ongoing conflict with Russia."

Musk reaguje na medialne doniesienia ws. Ukrainy. "To nieprawda"

Elon Musk twierdzi, że agencja Reutera kłamie ws. Starlinków dla Ukrainy. "To nieprawda" - napisał w serwisie X. Wcześniej Reuters podawał, że USA groziły Ukrainie dostępem do systemu.

wiadomosci.wp.pl

​

https://twitter.com/x/status/1893375607079059629

 

[Dotta]

Ukraine is not completely destroyed - it is the largest country in Europe and still has vast areas that have not been destroyed. Its airports are closed for civilian use due to air safety considerations, not because they’re destroyed. The Ukrainian air force is operating from its own bases. It receives equipment by both land and air routes. It has recently received new aircraft from European countries. See: Ukraine receives French and Dutch fighter jets – DW – 02/06/2025

There is no need for the US to build infrastructure and bases in Ukraine as the situation stands today, and Ukraine itself hasn’t requested direct US or other foreign involvement on its territory. The problem of nuclear brinkmanship has always loomed large in this conflict, and Zelensky has been quite realistic about his options.

What is your source for stating that Zelensky has announced that he wants aid for free? I cannot find any source for this in any mainstream media.

JMO

Ummm...

Russia is the largest in Europe.
Ukraine comes second.

Just saying

Definitely the largest country in Europe,
both in terms of area and population,
is the Russian Federation.

Other larger areas of European countries are Ukraine, France, Spain, Sweden.

 

[branmuffin]

If the US sends in military support they will have to have a place to work from. Everything in Ukraine is destroyed. They will need barracks the house/feed thousands of military, hospital to support military personnel, storage/repair facilities for equipment (tanks/vehicles), an entire ground and air communication system, currently they're working off of starlink, and more. They will need a fully operational Air Base, to get large cargo planes in and out, house military aircraft, the list is endless. They will need naval support, to protect the ports that will need to rebuild. You can't provide military support, in war torn country, without the basic necessities. It's not like we can run a shuttle bus/planes in and out. Russia could easily start shooting down the planes, block the ports. Ukraine's entire infrastructure is destroyed.

You are correct the US does have bases in the above countries. They are there to protect those countries. When the US agrees to provide support, on a long-term basis, after a war, we provide the full package. We provide everything needed. We stand ready, fully able and willing to support these countries.

Yea, Zelenskyy could have it all but he wants it for free. He wants hard working middle class citizens to give up another 20 to 50 a paycheck to pay. We are saying no. NATO and most European country are saying, we can give a little. In order for European countries to pick up the bill for Ukraine security, it would create a very high tax burden on their citizens. They know this, that is why they have not offered up billions of dollars for support.

All by opinion looking at it from a financial point of view, not only with the US but all Ukraine allies.

So if what you're saying is that the US installs bases to protect those countries but they expect countries to pay for it, then why did the US just open a missile base in Poland? What did Poland pay for this missile base? Is Poland on the verge of attack from Ukraine? Or Russia? If the installation is to be "ever vigilant" then it seems like the US dropped the ball when it came to Ukraine.

 

[Simply Southern]

Ukraine is not completely destroyed - it is the largest country in Europe and still has vast areas that have not been destroyed. Its airports are closed for civilian use due to air safety considerations, not because they’re destroyed. The Ukrainian air force is operating from its own bases. It receives equipment by both land and air routes. It has recently received new aircraft from European countries. See: Ukraine receives French and Dutch fighter jets – DW – 02/06/2025

There is no need for the US to build infrastructure and bases in Ukraine as the situation stands today, and Ukraine itself hasn’t requested direct US or other foreign involvement on its territory. The problem of nuclear brinkmanship has always loomed large in this conflict, and Zelensky has been quite realistic about his options.

What is your source for stating that Zelensky has announced that he wants aid for free? I cannot find any source for this in any mainstream media.

JMO

You are for correct I need to rephrase. Zelenskyy does not want to pay the US for direct military protection and the restoration of existing mining facilities. He called said not a good deal. Have you heard how he is planning to restore commerce or provide long term secure borders and the funding he needs, said the war end?

The US is offering military protection, offer to rebuild mines/production facilities, explore/mine new minerals for a share of the profit. Ukraines been trying for years to solicit private companies the mind minerals, very have refused because of unstable government and the threat from Russia. So unless Zelenskyy can come up with the way to have full security, private companies will not invest. Zelenskyy does not have the money to repair any of the existing damage facilities nor explore and mine new product.

Moo...

 

[Simply Southern]

Dbm wrong post

 

[Dotta]

DBM
The answer to deleted post

 

[Simply Southern]

So if what you're saying is that the US installs bases to protect those countries but they expect countries to pay for it, then why did the US just open a missile base in Poland? What did Poland pay for this missile base? Is Poland on the verge of attack from Ukraine? Or Russia? If the installation is to be "ever vigilant" then it seems like the US dropped the ball when it came to Ukraine.

Poland is a NATO member. Poland pays into NATO. We are there to protect and support our member.

Protect cost money.

 

[Cedars]

I totally agree. The only leader I've heard reach out is Trump. Have others tried to reason with Putin?
Moo

<modsnip: unnecessary> back through the 2010s there were endless discussions with Putin about Ukraine and other issues, ending with him invading Ukraine in spite of every effort to 'reason' with him.

Currently, western countries are imposing sanctions on Russia. They are not trying to use 'reason', they are using economic force.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

NATO has formally assumed command of the Aegis Ashore Missile Defense System (MDS) in Redzikowo, Poland, about a week after the site’s official inauguration.

It will operate under NATO’s Allied Air Command at Ramstein Air Base in Germany, which oversees the command and control of NATO’s ballistic missile defense systems, reinforcing the alliance’s dedication to improving Integrated Air and Missile Defence (IAMD).

NATO Takes Charge of Aegis Ashore Missile Defense System in Poland

NATO has formally assumed command of the Aegis Ashore Missile Defense System in Redzikowo, Poland, shortly after its official inauguration.

thedefensepost.com

 

[Cedars]

Poland is a NATO member. Poland pays into NATO. We are there to protect and support our member.

Protect cost money.

It is Ukraine's desire to eventually become a member of NATO that lead Putin to invade it.

 

[Warwick1991]

Ummm...

Russia is the largest in Europe.
Ukraine comes second.

Just saying

Definitely the largest country in Europe,
both in terms of area and population,
is the Russian Federation.

Other larger areas of European countries are Ukraine, France, Spain, Sweden.

Yes, you're correct. Ukraine is the 2nd largest country in Europe.

 

[Warwick1991]

It is Ukraine's desire to eventually become a member of NATO that lead Putin to invade it.

Also, in general, Ukraine aspired to be part of the West.

 

[branmuffin]

Poland is a NATO member. Poland pays into NATO. We are there to protect and support our member.

Protect cost money.

It does cost money. I just wonder where Poland got the money from since the beginning of their entry into NATO they consistently paid less than the 2% that Trump was complaining about yet in about the year 2017 after US said they'd build a missile base in Poland their payments skyrocketed. It seems like they went into massive debt to pay for this missile base.

 

[Amonet]

From my country's MSM

"Musk Responds to Media Reports on Ukraine: ​

'It's Not True'.​

View attachment 565787

Elon Musk claims that
Reuters is lying about Starlinks for Ukraine. -

'That's not true' -
he wrote on the X service.

Earlier, Reuters reported that the US threatened Ukraine with access to the system.

'This is not true.
Reuters is lying'.

Starlink,
Elon Musk's satellite system,
plays a key role in providing Ukraine with internet connectivity,
which is especially important in the context of the ongoing conflict with Russia."

Musk reaguje na medialne doniesienia ws. Ukrainy. "To nieprawda"

Elon Musk twierdzi, że agencja Reutera kłamie ws. Starlinków dla Ukrainy. "To nieprawda" - napisał w serwisie X. Wcześniej Reuters podawał, że USA groziły Ukrainie dostępem do systemu.

wiadomosci.wp.pl

​

https://twitter.com/x/status/1893375607079059629

Is it possible they were misinformed rather than lying?

 

[Dotta]

It does cost money. I just wonder where Poland got the money from since the beginning of their entry into NATO they consistently paid less than the 2% that Trump was complaining about yet in about the year 2017 after US said they'd build a missile base in Poland their payments skyrocketed. It seems like they went into massive debt to pay for this missile base.

Poland has agreed to provide Americans with free accommodation, meals, determined once a year cost of fuel, warehouses and infrastructure service.

That is what I remember reading about the base which is to defend Europe against medium-range (1,000-3,000 km) and intermediate-range (3,000-5,500 km) missiles.

 

[Amonet]

<modsnip: unnecessary> back through the 2010s there were endless discussions with Putin about Ukraine and other issues, ending with him invading Ukraine in spite of every effort to 'reason' with him.

Currently, western countries are imposing sanctions on Russia. They are not trying to use 'reason', they are using economic force.

The sanctions and other actions are intended to communicate a message to Putin to end the aggression in Ukraine. They've been trying to dissuade Putin while leaving it up to Zelensky if he wants to continue fighting for his country.

I don't think Russia has been willing to negotiate on terms that Zelensky would accept and vice versa as both want to walk away with Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, or as much of it as possible

I don't know what exact methods Trump and the Trump administration are using. We're not really seeing info on that in the news here. We're mostly seeing the back and forth between Trump and Zelensky.

The inference in the news websites has been that Trump appears to want Ukraine to surrender (though they're not using that term). The other inference seems to be that Zelensky wants future security for Ukraine from future Russian incursions or adversarial actions. A few countries seem to be offering to send a peacekeeping force to Ukraine once everything is agreed.