Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #11

[JennieM]

Diplomacy dies on live TV as Trump and Vance gang up to bully Ukraine leader​

The men spoke over each other. Raising his voice, the US president said: “You’re not in a good position. You don’t have the cards right now.”

Zelenskyy responded: “I’m not playing cards. I’m very serious, Mr President. I’m the president in a war.”

Diplomacy dies on live TV as Trump and Vance gang up to bully Ukraine leader

US president said his horrific blow-up would make ‘great television’ – the White House has never seen anything like it

www.theguardian.com

 

[SouthAussie]

"Donald Trump has further criticised Zelensky in the hours since the meeting, mocking him as a "big shot" .... "

Zelensky issues new statement after Donald Trump White House showdown

'People in Ukraine need to know that they are not alone'

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[Simply Southern]

To be clear, it was Trump who was pulling out of NATO back as 45 and threatening to tear it down. And he was back at it within 48hrs of swearing in as 47. This has zero to do with Zelinskyy games at division.
Ref: NATO Atlantic Council, 28 August 2018

He (Zelenskyy) said there needed to be security guarantees for in order for the war to be ended. Guarantees for Ukraine's future and freedom from future Russian aggression AKA Budapest Memorandum of 1994 V2.0. Ukraine gave up their 1700 nukes and the US and Britain in turn guaranteed them future security from Russia if Russia should ever breach that Memorandum and invade them.
Ref: Budapest Memorandum of 1994 - Signatory: the USofA Pages 167-172

There's a mere 53 miles of seperation between Russia and the USofA; not an ocean, just a sea. Isolationism has it's own downsides.

Not my opinions. Facts - as per the official sources above.

Now, my opinion, why would you, as Ukraine, ever again trust either Russia OR the USofA to live up to any international or Peace Agreement when their track record is already a 'fail' as per version 1.0 of the Memorandum??

Trump threatened to pull out of NATO because the members were not paying the required dues. The US has become a honey pot for foreign aid. After his threat folks decided to pay a little more, but still aren't meeting the obligation. I'm thankful Trump stood up for Americans, many countries benefit from NATO without paying full membership. Trump's going to take care of American interest and the American dollar. Hallelujah!!! NATO members need to step up and pay their fair share or the organization will fail, it's common sense. If everyone paid their 2% at least, NATO wouldn't I have a financial problem. The US is paying almost 4%, Poland's paying almost five.

I'm not sure that most Americans care whether Ukraine /Europe trust us. What we do care about is how much money we pour into the war that's going nowhere. We do care about the threat of nuclear war, which Ukraine is determined to lead us all into. I certainly don't trust Zelensky. <modsnip - HB is off topic>. Zelenskyy even flew to the US in October, to campaign for the Democratic candidate.

As far as, Alaska and Russia, I'm not worried. The American government unjustifiably accused Russia of political interference, which turned out to be a lie. I think Putin, will have some loyalty to Americans, who proved the truth.

Everybody's all mad and upset cuz the US won't continue to fund Ukraine. These countries offer "support", but few dollars are attached to that commitment. They say they've given more than the US. Well I guess so, when you combine all the donations from 27 countries. I'll give them credit they know how to spin a story. These 27 countries, should be able to provide security for Ukraine, but they prefer to try to shame the US into taking on the burden. Why would we even want to help, after the horrific things that have been said in the media by our supposed partner countries?

All my opinion only, respectfully

 

[nhmemorymaker]

He did bring his staff I watched his team walk in and out. I also, watched his team s reaction to his behavior. There are many media clips of his staff lowering their head, pinching the bridge of their nose, with their eyes closed.
Moo...

dbm

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Meanwhile, what’s happening in China these days?

Anyone keeping an eye on that part of the world?

I know, I know but sometimes distractions, esp dramatic ones, can be used.

So true!
That part of the world is certainly keeping an eye on us.........

 

[Simply Southern]

Genuine question for those lauding Trump and Vance on here, but how do you think stopping support for Ukraine, possibly backing out of NATO, stopping being the leading power of the world order will actually do for you personally?

Do you think "your tax dollars" will suddenly land back in your pockets?
The money being used to assist Ukraine amounts to mere fractions of your defence expenditure, which itself is 3.4% of GDP. It's literally cents on the dollar. The US is the richest nation by far, the most powerful by far. But it seems they want to capitulate to Putin.

And it's not JUST your country contributing, European partners do too. Now, I believe Europe as a whole has underpent and over-relied on America's power and we should do more. Equally, both Europe and the US while supplying Ukraine with weapons still imposed restrictions on how they can be used which hasn't helped their situation.
The world feels like it's become a much more dangerous place. The mighty America, should still be the upholders of the world order by their power projections.

Trump wants peace only for himself to have a chance for a Nobel Peace Prize. His moves to be closer to Russia are dangerous and setting a precedent that any powerful country can invade a smaller neighbour without consequences.

On another note, it's good to see European leaders express support for Zelensky. But action is now needed. European nations along with the UK need to make some hard (and costly) decisions for our security and be less dependable on the US.

Yes I do believe that stopping much of the foreign aid will put dollars back in my purse. With the new administration, reviewing all foreign aid, Americans are finally able to see the fraud and wasteful spending.

When the other countries, all 27 of them who claim to have given more than the US, step up with 3.4%, then let's talk. European countries far too long, relied on the American taxpayer. It's time European countries ask their taxpayers to pay more.

The US is still a world leader and protecting our financial resources and investments will make us even stronger. I'm not sure Americans care about a title of a world leader, and European countries are free to choose someone else to take over the title.

The US will weather the storm of our so-called partners trying to shame US into giving more and entering a war with Putin. I'm actually glad all this happened. We've been able to identify who our real friends and partners are and we can redirect foreign aid to countries that support American values we hold dear.

Moo...

 

[SouthAussie]

Zelenskyy even flew to the US in October, to campaign for the Democratic candidate.

That may be your opinion, but that is not what happened. It was September and Zelenskyy toured a munitions factory. The Democrats were in power at the time, which is why they greeted him. Biden also released a huge grant to Ukraine in November, likely because Biden knew what could happen once the govt changed in January.

Zelenskyy was actually among the first leaders to congratulate Trump on his election win. Diplomacy.


Zelenskyy visited the Scranton Army Ammunition Plant in Scranton, Pennsylvania in September last year. After arriving on a US Air Force C-17, he toured the weapons facility. The Ukrainian president was then joined by Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro, a prominent Democrat, as well as Senator Bob Casey. No Republicans were invited to the event.

During the visit, Zelenskyy thanked the workers and emphasized the importance of US support, but he did not explicitly endorse Harris or any candidate by name in public statements tied to the visit itself.

Did Zelenskyy Campaign For Kamala Harris In Pennsylvania? Truth Behind Trump's Claim

President Donald Trump, during his meeting at the Oval Office on Friday, accused Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy, of being disrespectful towards the United States. Vice President JD Vance further added that Zelenskyy was, in fact, campaigning for Trump's key 2024 rival, Kamala Harris, in...

www.timesnownews.com

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy was among the first world leaders to congratulate Trump and he also spoke to the president-elect on Wednesday.

Biden ‘rushing’ billions in aid to Ukraine as Trump win fuels uncertainty

Zelenskyy was among the first leaders to congratulate Trump, who has criticised the scale of US support for Ukraine.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Niner]

Well - this is quite a good discussing going on here...

Were we watching two different press conferences? That was an embarrassing, psychopathic display by Trump and his minion Vance.

Totally agree with you! I felt sorry for Z - two psychopaths bullying him....

You're in the minority thinking this but you're entitled to your opinion. I believe it was bullying behavior and absolutely unprofessional and unacceptable in any situation.

Agree!

You are being completely disingenuous. Ukrainians want their land back, DJT would freeze the front lines and declare it a victory, two totally different things.

Right - Russia wants to stay where they are - no giving back Ukraine's land.... that is not what the Ukrainian people want....
This whole "press conference" was a disaster for Trump & the U.S.A. I am so ashamed now to say I am an American citizen.... not born there - but naturalized!

Latvia stands with Ukraine!

HOPING for NO WW3 here!!

 

[Niner]

And you Americans who rely on Trump - good luck! If you can't see what he is doing to the country - I feel sorry for you.
Your groceries bills are going to just get higher - and no more medicaid, medicare, etc. Appointing his "friends" to high positions - when they have NO experience in their posts.... just because they agree with him or gave contributions to his presidency.

 

[Tuck]

Yes I do believe that stopping much of the foreign aid will put dollars back in my purse. With the new administration, reviewing all foreign aid, Americans are finally able to see the fraud and wasteful spending.

When the other countries, all 27 of them who claim to have given more than the US, step up with 3.4%, then let's talk. European countries far too long, relied on the American taxpayer. It's time European countries ask their taxpayers to pay more.

The US is still a world leader and protecting our financial resources and investments will make us even stronger. I'm not sure Americans care about a title of a world leader, and European countries are free to choose someone else to take over the title.

The US will weather the storm of our so-called partners trying to shame US into giving more and entering a war with Putin. I'm actually glad all this happened. We've been able to identify who our real friends and partners are and we can redirect foreign aid to countries that support American values we hold dear.

Moo...

One of the key purposes of foreign aid is as a tool for diplomacy, and as a mechanism to maintain soft power. This has long allowed the United States to achieve its interests around the world without the use of excess force or power.

The notion of only redirecting foreign aid to countries that support American values is at odds with the use of aid for such purposes. If the United States wants to maintain its position as a hegemon (allowing it to discourage behavior from adversaries that is at odds with American values and ideals), it needs to maintain its soft power relationships with countries around the world, including those that may be only fledging in terms of their economic, political and social development. If this aid is withdrawn, it creates a vacuum in which the sphere of influence created by American aid diplomacy is able to be replaced by foreign adversaries.

<modsnip - off topic>

 

[SouthAussie]

One of the key purposes of foreign aid is as a tool for diplomacy, and as a mechanism to maintain soft power. This has long allowed the United States to achieve its interests around the world without the use of excess force or power.

The notion of only redirecting foreign aid to countries that support American values is at odds with the use of aid for such purposes. If the United States wants to maintain its position as a hegemon (allowing it to discourage behavior from adversaries that is at odds with American values and ideals), it needs to maintain its soft power relationships with countries around the world, including those that may be only fledging in terms of their economic, political and social development. If this aid is withdrawn, it creates a vacuum in which the sphere of influence created by American aid diplomacy is able to be replaced by foreign adversaries.

<modsnip - off topic>

If the US - as a so-called super power - does not use its soft power techniques, we can be sure that China will.

imo

Eg:
China’s Foreign Investments Significantly Outpace the United States.
China offers Africa $51 billion in fresh funding, promises a million jobs

 

[Lilibet]

Anyone who is familiar with the DARVO technique used by abusers certainly saw it on display on the world stage Friday.
DENY
ATTACK
REVERSE VICTIM & OFFENDER.

It’s easy to get trapped in the DARVO web while trying to present your side or defend yourself. Zelensky actually did pretty well, which is why Trump became so furious IMO.

 

[SouthAussie]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

Just going to repeat this line from the fact-check article I posted.

During the visit, Zelenskyy thanked the workers and emphasized the importance of US support, but he did not explicitly endorse Harris or any candidate by name in public statements tied to the visit itself.

 

[Jade]

Putin will have loyalties to Americans! Lol

Oh my that’s the Trump US, the state of the understanding of their special world, alternative history and display of the worship of the pseudokhristos.

Is his party’s abhorrence of knowledge and academia showing like a long white slip with a too short black skirt yet?

Except for Ivy League Vance he doesn’t count apparently because he demonstrates to them he didn’t learn anything.

I scoffed at our handyman who came declaring end times were on us with the election of the godless self worshipping unrepentant felon. Lord help us he was right.

War, faminine, disease, ruining of the earth, deteriorating attitudes, quickly achieved by the administration feverishly spreading chaos and division while crashing the economy out of pure spite.

Trump used Vance’s primitive personality like a true manipulator to sink the meeting.

Why else would the egotistical Trump sit there looking like a foolish elderly man who just needs to leave to go to the bathroom after his greasy lunch while Vance humiliated him talking over and making it about his own weird need for effusive thank you’s unless Trump knew Vance was going to make an ugly scene for him.

Trump seems to have little other need for Vance.

Feb. 10th Fox News interview “Trump threw Vance” under the bus:

www.yahoo.com/news/trump-just-utterly-humiliated-jd-2221144.html


All imo

 

[Lilibet]

I suppose most people are aware that Zelensky was a comedian and actor prior to becoming president. In a TV series he played a teacher who was elected President. After the show’s finale he ran for and was elected President. Life imitating art! I’ve found a few of the shows on YouTube and they are hilarious. I suspect his humor enabled him to respond so well to the reporter who asked him why he didn’t wear a suit and show respect. (You have to watch the whole video to see it)
A couple of articles about his switch from actor to president…

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/25/europe/volodymyr-zelensky-profile-cmd-intl/index.html

Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelensky: The comedian who became a wartime leader

Zelensky had no experience of politics when he was elected but is now a symbol of Ukrainian defiance.

www.bbc.com

 

[JennieM]

11.47 GMT

Here is President Zelenskyy's full statement expressing gratitude to the United States...​

“We are very grateful to the United States for all the support. I’m thankful to President Trump, Congress for their bipartisan support, and American people. Ukrainians have always appreciated this support, especially during these three years of full-scale invasion.

America’s help has been vital in helping us survive, and I want to acknowledge that. Despite the tough dialogue, we remain strategic partners. But we need to be honest and direct with each other to truly understand our shared goals.

It’s crucial for us to have President Trump’s support. He wants to end the war, but no one wants peace more than we do. We are the ones living this war in Ukraine. It’s a fight for our freedom, for our very survival.

As President Reagan once said: ‘Peace is not just the absence of war.’ We’re talking about just and lasting peace – freedom, justice, and human rights for everyone. A ceasefire won’t work with Putin. He has broken ceasefires 25 times over the last 10 years. A real peace is the only solution.

We are ready to sign the minerals agreement, and it will be the first step toward security guarantees. But it’s not enough, and we need more than just that. A ceasefire without security guarantees is dangerous for Ukraine. We’ve been fighting for three years, and Ukrainian people need to know that America is on our side.

I cannot change Ukraine’s position on Russia. The Russians are killing us. Russia is the enemy, and that’s the reality we face. Ukraine wants peace, but it must be a just and lasting peace. For that, we need to be strong at the negotiation table. Peace can only come when we know we have security guarantees, when our army is strong, and our partners are with us.

We want peace. That’s why I came to the United States, and visited President Trump. The deal on minerals is just a first step toward security guarantees and getting closer to peace. Our situation is tough, but we can’t just stop fighting and not having guarantees that Putin will not return tomorrow.

It will be difficult without the US support. But we can’t lose our will, our freedom, or our people. We’ve seen how Russians came to our homes and killed many people. Nobody wants another wave of occupation. If we cannot be accepted to Nato, we need some clear structure of security guarantees from our allies in the US.

Europe is ready for contingencies and to help fund our large army. We also need the US role in defining security guarantees – what kind, what volume, and when. Once these guarantees are in place, we can talk with Russia, Europe, and the US about diplomacy. War alone is too long, and we don’t have enough weapons to push them out entirely.

When someone talks about losses, every single life matters. Russia invaded our homes, killed our people, and tried to erase us. This isn’t just about territories or numbers – it’s about real lives. That’s what we need everyone to understand.

I want the US to stand more firmly on our side. This is not just a war between our two countries; Russia brought this war on to our territory and into our homes. They are wrong because they disrespected our territorial integrity.

All Ukrainians want to hear a strong US position on our side. It’s understandable the US might look for dialogue with Putin. But the US has always spoken about ‘peace through strength’. And together we can take strong steps against Putin.

Our relationship with the American president is more than just two leaders; it’s a historic and solid bond between our peoples. That’s why I always begin with words of gratitude from our nation to the American nation.

American people helped save our people. Humans and human rights come first. We’re truly thankful. We want only strong relations with America, and I really hope we will have them.”

‘You have full backing across the UK’: Zelenskyy leaves Downing Street after meeting with Starmer – as it happened

Ukrainian president has held talks with PM Keir Starmer ahead of defence summit with European leaders tomorrow. This blog is now closed.

www.theguardian.com

 

[JennieM]

12m ago13.29 GMT
German president Frank-Walter Steinmeier criticised Donald Trump in unusually sharp terms for his behaviour during last night’s meeting with Volodymyr Zelenskyy at the Oval Office.

“Diplomacy fails when negotiating partners are humiliated in front of the whole world,” Steinmeier told DPA, the German news agency, during a flight to Uruguay. “The scene in the White House yesterday took my breath away. I would never have believed that we would one day have to protect Ukraine from the USA.”

‘You have full backing across the UK’: Zelenskyy leaves Downing Street after meeting with Starmer – as it happened

Ukrainian president has held talks with PM Keir Starmer ahead of defence summit with European leaders tomorrow. This blog is now closed.

www.theguardian.com

 

[Simply Southern]

Well - this is quite a good discussing going on here...



Totally agree with you! I felt sorry for Z - two psychopaths bullying him....



Agree!



Right - Russia wants to stay where they are - no giving back Ukraine's land.... that is not what the Ukrainian people want....
This whole "press conference" was a disaster for Trump & the U.S.A. I am so ashamed now to say I am an American citizen.... not born there - but naturalized!

Latvia stands with Ukraine!

View attachment 567126 View attachment 567127

HOPING for NO WW3 here!!

This may be the perception, created by the media spin, but rest assured, a majority (by vote) support President Trump. I don't think you'd find many Americans willing to go to war with Russia. We certainly don't want a nuclear war. I remember growing up with the threat of nuclear war. Air raid drills, hiding in the school basements, community bomb shelters, and JFK reminding Americans of the threat.

The Europeans are not gonna be able to "shame" America, when they don't ask their citizens to pay more. I think it's very disrespectful what European countries are saying about America.
Moo

 

[CaMan60]

I'm not sure that most Americans care whether Ukraine /Europe trust us. What we do care about is how much money we pour into the war that's going nowhere.

Looking at a map of the Black Sea area it is obvious that Crimea is a major Shipping Port. And it is needed by millions of people in that part of the world for the basics like food and shelter.
Starting 10 years ago Russia has developed this Shipping Route with Billions invested.
It was Three years ago Zelenskyy was on National TV across America saying he doesn't like Russia and never has. Well this war has turned into a nightmare. Two countries who are geographically next to each other are always going to be better off, In a trading partnership with each other.

 

[JennieM]

This may be the perception, created by the media spin, but rest assured, a majority (by vote) support President Trump. I don't think you'd find many Americans willing to go to war with Russia. We certainly don't want a nuclear war. I remember growing up with the threat of nuclear war. Air raid drills, hiding in the school basements, community bomb shelters, and JFK reminding Americans of the threat.

The Europeans are not gonna be able to "shame" America, when they don't ask their citizens to pay more. I think it's very disrespectful what European countries are saying about America.
Moo

Trump called the previous American presidency stupid in a world PC. In my opinion, he is the one shaming America.