Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #14

[nhmemorymaker]

There is a lot of backstory / history behind the events going on in the US and world today (I don’t mean just Trump, but that’s obviously part of it), and America’s (or to some, just the current administration’s) changed / changing views in our role in global politics, conflicts and trade ((so again, I don’t mean just Trump, but that is obviously part of it). Some of it might (might) inform (didn’t say justify) re: ceasing aid and intelligence. Each person decides what they believe to be the truth; the why

This includes what happened between Trump and Zelensky in the White House recently. There is a lot to it (jmo)

Not only is there significant backstory that I think might be helpful to advocates of any viewpoints when it comes to America’s new posture (outside and inside the country), but a lot that explains (or at least informs) some of the individuals and personalities involved in the current situation in Ukraine, EU, US and Russia - that might (or might not!) help infirm re: viewpoints and actions. It’s obviously up to the reader to decide.

I’m not claiming that any of it answers who is right or wrong. But imo the more each side (or viewpoint) is able to see things from the other side, the more reasonable and productive discussions are in finding a solution between parties - in anything, not just global politics

For those interested and with an open mind who wish to know more (even if they disagree with it all vehemently), I would offer up two recent articles I’ve read - one that describes a jaw dropping tale of what has happened over the past 4 US presidential elections (and the administrations and deep state politics of the last 18 years) written by a well-résumé’d lawyer and author up in PA; and one re: Trump’s recent decisions re: Ukraine today (right or wrong) written by a well known conservative historian at Brookings and Stanford. One is titled ‘Trump v. Atlanticism’, and the other ‘Five Ukrainian Myths’. One is long, one is short, but they both provide background on what’s happening (again, not saying it’s right)

There is also a lot online if you dig hard enough that helps one learn about personal backstories and the relationship dynamics specifically between individuals: Trump and Zelensky and Putin going back to at least 2012. Some of the pertinent backstory includes events in Ukraine, Washington DC, and Russia during previous Ukrainian governments/administrations and their respective leaders (and their backers). There’s a lot for me to learn.

Doing such research is just a look at what happened (even if each article you read has some bias). That’s my opinion anyway. Regardless of viewpoint, I think it helps to have read as much as you can, and be as informed as possible about what has happened in the past - to better understand what is happening today.

Again, I’m not saying any of it is right or wrong, or 100 percent accurate, or justifies any behavior or decisions we are seeing today. I am willing and interested in reading any articles (not just a link to some politician’s remarks tho) or other info that others think might better hrlp inform me.

Just encouraging all interested parties (on WS and not on WS) to read and learn as much as they can. Be as informed as you can be. There’s a lot to it imo (though I’m sure some will say none of it matters to some things). I don’t pretend to know more than just a little. Everybody is welcome to their own opinion.

All jmo

Respectfully, I don't get your actual point with this long post.

In some ways, I felt like I was reading "me" of the past.... trying so hard to straddle the "middle".
I was raised in a strong Republican family...but the times, they were so different.
I voted for a few Republican presidents and many lower level politicians.

I too, relish historical journals, articles etc. And I will often say to myself (and have stated here(, how could Cheney have done this, why did George Bush senior NOT get it done, why were Obama, Biden and Kerry so weak with their Ukrainian support in 2014.... There is excellent reputable journalism so readily available to read out there...

But as so many pro trump folks state...they don't trust ANY media from ANYWHERE.
So who are you addressing??

Honestly, I am not trying to be argumentative.... just beleaguered these days......

 

[Simply Southern]

Well, I hope President Zelensky makes it out of Saudi Arabia alive. It sounds dangerous and he will not exactly be surrounded by friends.

Remembering Jamal Khashoggi. Saudi Arabia is merciless.

JMO

There's really no need for him to go. He's not part of the negotiation team. He's going early to meet with the Prince. Another photo op, lots of fabulous food and a warm cozy bed. I'm sure they'll treat him very well.
Moo...

 

[Stella123]

He shouldn’t go to the WH while Trump is still there. Really, no legitimate leader of any democratic nation that’s an ally of the US should. It’s not a safe place to visit right now, JMO and there’s nothing constructive to be accomplished there.

It's sad isn't it. The White House has become a very negative symbol to the world - it's the lion's den. JMO

 

[Summerliz03]

There's really no need for him to go. He's not part of the negotiation team. He's going early to meet with the Prince. Another photo op, lots of fabulous food and a warm cozy bed. I'm sure they'll treat him very well.
Moo...

Can I just ask why you think the democratically elected president of a country that’s been invaded by his neighboring country wouldn’t need to go be part of peace negotiations about his own country? If the US was at war, would you say that DJT wouldn’t need to go be apart of any sort negotiations? I’m truly trying to understand the logic here because I do not get the attitude that a leader should not attend meetings regarding his own country.

 

[Simply Southern]

Yep, Facts are facts. And the right people need to come to the table to talk peace.
To ask the two groups, who are doing the fighting to sign off on a cease fire is taking to long. We need a group like the EU or a branch of the WTO to bring the right people together to come to a agreement on a peace plan.

The EU had three years to come up with a plan and set up a meeting with Putin.
Do they have a plan now? It's been a week and two large summits since Oval office Friday. Have the meaningful conversations produced a working document?

The WTO is a trade and commerce organization. This is not in their wheelhouse.

Politicians move at a snail's pace. Businessman move at lightning speed.
Moo

 

[Simply Southern]

Indeed "you and your circle have decided to dismiss anything that doesn't fit your worldview"....and this is why the meat grinder continues.

Paradigms

 

[Stella123]

Called that the other day in a post on here.

No surprise really as it's a well known Russian tactical move.

It's what they do when they smell 'advantage' and need to suck out morale of 'their enemy' and rile up the locals against their own leader 'for failing'.

Hmmmmm, who gave them that by publicly announcing 'freezes & stoppages' et al??

Indeed, lags and stoppages are usually kept "behind closed doors" with friends and allies. They don't let the enemy know that they are 'running low'.

Trump though has set a brand new "precedent" by his very, very public announcements of cutting off shipments, cutting off intelligence and of forcing others' to also cut off both. Big, bright billboard and TV-rant pronouncements.

Trump claims it is to "pressure" Zelinskyy to cave and get to the table. IMO, I will assure you it was not. Trump could have one those things, diplomaticly - behind closed doors - so that Zelinskyy would know he was under pressure, but that the enemy (RUSSIA) would not know the extent. That's how these things usually work.

He didn't do that - unlike in the history of allied warfare, he does that publicly ... "Go Russia, Go!" Here's your sign.

Nobody needs enemies with friends like this. That does not an ally make. His true colours are shining through.

Spot on. Hear hear. JMO

 

[LoveyG]

That's what I said . Lindsey Graham was been one of Zelensky's staunchest allies. Key word "was". He's lobbied the last three years for Ukraine and visited it 8 or 9 times.

Also Lindsey Graham. If you ask me, he was spot on.

https://twitter.com/x/status/727604522156228608

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

I feel like saying something stronger, but castration isn't legal JMO

Who are you talking about in this scenario?

 

[sapphire blue]

If we fail to learn from history we are doomed to repeat it. Anyone remember when allies let Poland fall to cease hostilities and appease Germany. Remind me what happened after that? World peace in your reality?

If Ukraine falls Russia will be emboldened, which country will be next domino set to fall?

 

[nhmemorymaker]

@LovesPeace2 Thank you for reminding us of Holodomor…….” Death by Hunger”…..also referred to as The Ukrainian Holocaust

Marking the 90th anniversary of the Holodomor: joint statement to the OSCE Ministerial Council 2023

The UK and partners pay tribute to victims of the Holodomor and note Russia’s continued weaponisation of food as one element of its illegal full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

www.gov.uk

Holodomor

Teaser here

cla.umn.edu

Lest we Forget

Thank you @LovesPeace2 and @Bethan .

How I hope we don't need a 90 year anniversary to try to honor atrocities.... what a thought.
We just cannot justify the US of A. He wants Ukraine to fail and give into shameful bullying.

Mr Chair, the 90th anniversary of the 1932-1933 Holodomor in Ukraine serves as a powerful reminder about the dangers of autocratic regimes. The history of the Holodomor also reminds us of our common responsibility to defend the cause of humanity and our shared respect for human life.

 

[Stella123]

Ukraine will fight to the death to protect themselves and their country. If Putin does take over Ukraine, there will be no Ukrainians left - which is just how Putin wants it - except for those in exile in other countries. JMO. I think any country would do the same. They have been betrayed and their enemy assisted - which makes it all the worse. JMO

 

[UK Girl]

There's really no need for him to go. He's not part of the negotiation team. He's going early to meet with the Prince. Another photo op, lots of fabulous food and a warm cozy bed. I'm sure they'll treat him very well.
Moo...

It is HIS country in the war so does involve him. Why is Trump going?

 

[PommyMommy]

Today, a highly productive meeting took place in Kyiv between the diplomatic teams of Ukraine and the UK.

We discussed our joint steps that could bring us closer to peace and accelerate diplomatic efforts. I’m grateful for the support. Ukraine is determined to do everything to end this war with a just and lasting peace as soon as possible.

Next week, I will begin with a visit to Saudi Arabia. After my meeting on Monday with the Crown Prince, Ukrainian diplomatic and military representatives will stay for a meeting on Tuesday with the American team. The Ukrainian team will include Andriy Yermak, Andriy Sybiha, Rustem Umerov, and Pavlo Palisa.

On our side, we are fully committed to constructive dialogue, and we hope to discuss and agree on the necessary decisions and steps.

Ukraine has been seeking peace from the very first second of this war. Realistic proposals are on the table. The key is to move quickly and effectively.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1898361925807018492

On the frontlines and in the rear, in hospitals and schools, in the defense sector and in business—our Ukrainian women are everywhere. Each of you, in your own place, enhances our collective strength, helps, saves, protects, supports those around you, inspires, and leads forward. Today is the International Day for Women's Rights and Peace. But every day is your day. And every day must be a day of peace.

Heroic. Strong. Professional. Determined. We thank you for your resilience, which strengthens Ukraine every day.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1898315416402800768

 

[UK Girl]

Can I just ask why you think the democratically elected president of a country that’s been invaded by his neighboring country wouldn’t need to go be part of peace negotiations about his own country? If the US was at war, would you say that DJT wouldn’t need to go be apart of any sort negotiations? I’m truly trying to understand the logic here because I do not get the attitude that a leader should not attend meetings regarding his own country.

To be honest Trump seems to think the same so...maybe understandable

 

[sapphire blue]

There's really no need for him to go. He's not part of the negotiation team. He's going early to meet with the Prince. Another photo op, lots of fabulous food and a warm cozy bed. I'm sure they'll treat him very well.
Moo...

In what bizarre upside down world does the elected president of a country not need to go? The elected leader should be present and participating in all negotiations, they are representing their country and people!

 

[UK Girl]

Ukraine will fight to the death to protect themselves and their country. If Putin does take over Ukraine, there will be no Ukrainians left - which is just how Putin wants it - except for those in exile in other countries. JMO. I think any country would do the same. JMO

Actually they remind me of Brits and the bulldog spirit

 

[Stella123]

Was it not NBC, CBS, ABC and CNN that assured the American people, President Biden had excellent mental acuity? They were part of the White House cover up.

Defining moment .... The presidential debate

Was it not CBS that doctored an interview for Kamala Harris?

I think a person has to be open-minded. I prefer not to live in a paradigm. I watch all the news outlets and trying to separate fact from fiction. It was pretty easy, I can see with my own eyes, the message was contradictory.

Moo

Your comment about a person, reminds me of a line from the film "Horton hears a Who" - "a person's a person, no matter how small".

Zelensky may be a small person, living on a speck of a country (in the eyes of some Americans) but they are still people. From a democratic country. JMO

 

[nhmemorymaker]

This is a great post. I've been saying this time and again. To ignore the Russian perception of events, their interests, whether right or wrong, is folly. To ignore NATO expansion is folly. To ignore previous administrations, agreements, empty promises on both sides of this war, is folly. Trump is trying to get Putin to the negotiation table. A 'western' hardline approach, threats of nuclear expansionism, ideas of Ukraine becoming a member of NATO, these things, to name a few, are, in my opinion, why Putin has cranked up the killing.

Zelensky knows all these things, he knew them prior to that meeting in Washington. The guy messed up real bad that day, and we see the results in the recent explosion of Russian rage. The warmongers continue to have what they lust for....war.

The warmongers continue to have what they lust for....war. = Putin.

 

[PommyMommy]

Zelenskyy ‘fully committed’ to constructive dialogue with US after Trump defends Putin – as it happened

Zelenskyy’s statement comes after another significant overnight attack from Russia

www.theguardian.com

1h ago09.02 EST

Zelenskyy says Ukraine is 'fully committed' to constructive dialogue with US​

Ukraine is “fully committed” to constructive dialogue with US representatives in Saudi Arabia next week and hopes to agree on the necessary decisions and steps, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy said on Saturday, reports Reuters.

Zelenskyy said he would visit Saudi Arabia next week and after his meeting with the Crown Prince on Monday, Ukrainian diplomatic and military representatives would stay for a meeting on Tuesday with the US team.

23m ago09.41 EST
According to Reuters, the Ukrainian delegation will include foreign minister Andrii Sybiha, Zelenskyy’s chief of staff Andriy Yermak and defence minister Rustem Umerov.

Donald Trump’s special envoy, Steve Witkoff has also said he was in discussions with Ukraine for a framework deal to end the three-year war with Russia, and a meeting was planned next week with the Ukrainians in Saudi Arabia.

In February, Riyadh hosted a meeting between US and Russian officials to discuss ways to halt the deadliest conflict in Europe since the second world war. Ukraine was not included in those talks, raising concern in Kyiv and among its European allies.