S.B.T.C. / Ransom Note Merged

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

"It was just stated on Nancy Grace that there was an analyst that said that there was no immediate match or things that jumped out so I am hearing what you're hearing."

Okay. Just so no one thinks ol' Dave is nuts!

I just didn't want you to think that I was challenging you.

We have to wait??? I'd pay to have the answers right this minute!

ETA: How about if I ask you to look at how the short line of the y often intersects the long line? Or how the top curve of the g goes over and beyond the top of the straight line, often with a space between the two? lol.

 

[Wudge]

It was just stated on Nancy Grace that there was an analyst that said that there was no immediate match or things that jumped out so I am hearing what you're hearing. But one thing I'd like for you to look at is the tails on the p's and the y's. The stroke goes down and often has a slight hook towards the right. That is similar in both writings in spite of the fact that most of us write y's with the slant to the left.

He might well have attempted to alter his handwriting over the course of years. I suspect the D.A.'s team will gather a bunch of pre-1996 handwriting samples for experts to compare to the ransom note. And if Karr has some signature quirks when the pen hits or leaves paper, they will likely still exist to this day.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

He might well have attempted to alter his handwriting over the course of years. I suspect the D.A.'s team will gather a bunch of pre-1996 handwriting samples for experts to compare to the ransom note. And if Karr has some signature quirks when the pen hits or leaves paper, they will likely still exist to this day.

Exactly. In most cases, there are certain characteristics that will remain constant throughout an adult's lifetime.

One thing that makes me think that the author of the ransom note was disguising his/her writing is that there are several spots where the letters look shaky. So was someone trying to make their writing look like Patsy's? Was he just trying to hide his own writing? I have no idea. But I'm not very patient waiting for these answers!

 

[pinto]

[I hope this isn't a duplicate post -- I thought I was writing one and it went bye bye.]

I think the ransom note looks much more like the yearbook writing than Patsy's. I don't see that much similarity between Patsy's and the ransom note, myself.

The yearbook sample is obviously very fancy, but most of the letters that aren't fancy are quite similar to the rn, esp. that d!! Weird. Also the y, t, w, a. J and M, as well.

In the Thailand sample, the J and M are similar, and the A is similar to the A in the yearbook. But the A and I in the yearbook and the A and I in the note aren't alike. Which is odd, b/c the M begins with a downstroke, like an m, but sometimes the A does and sometimes it doesn't.

THe U and u are different, too -- in Karr's exemplars, they end with a downstroke, but not in the note.

The e and r are interesting. In the note, they have that little convex thing going on (I remember fashioning mine like that back in, oh, 1976 or so), which is kind of a kid thing. (A girl thing, to be sure.) But they've simplified in the RN, but still have a flatness to that stroke that used to be convex.

In any case, no smoking gun. But intriguing, IM(A)O. (A for amateur)

And lordy, my handwriting changes from day to day, much less what it looked like in high school. Sometimes I loop the tails on my y's, sometimes they are totally straight. Sometimes I make tails on my t's, other times I don't. Maybe I should commit a crime and leave a note!

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

One thing that I'm finding really intriguing across the 3 writing samples is that the slant seems to be all over the place in all of them, (although not quite as much in the job application). In the ransom note, you'll see that l's (L's) sometimes slant to the left, sometimes to the right - even when in close proximity to each other, (like in the word "carefully" on the first line of the ransom note). If you compare that to the 11 in his birthdate on the job application, there is a distinct similarity.

Here are those writings again:

The Smoking Gun: JonBenet Ramsey Ransom Note

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/pdf/karrYearbook.pdf

Celebrity Handwriting Analysis - JonBenet Ramsey by leading handwriting expert Bart Baggett - handwriting, handwriting analys...

 

[Nehemiah]

Can anyone post Karr's handwriting here? I can't pull up the PDF. (dial up)

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Can anyone post Karr's handwriting here? I can't pull up the PDF. (dial up)

The third link in my post above has it. Someone else posted it here earlier in the thread and it has both the ransom note and some writing of Karr's.

 

[pinto]

One thing that I'm finding really intriguing across the 3 writing samples is that the slant seems to be all over the place in all of them, ...

Yes ... and what I noticed is that often, the slant leans to the left at the beginning of the word, straightens up in the middle of the word, and leans right by the time the word finishes.

For instance, look at the two R's in "KARR" in the job application. The three A's in "Atlanta" in the job app show this best. .. they all are different slants, depending on their location in the word.

The yearbook sample is the same.

That happens in some of of the words in the RN, as well; "authorities" on page 3, although it happens more in a series of two words ("will be" and "good southern" on pg 3).

However, that's a really tough sample. I don't know if it's been faxed or how it's been degraded in other ways. It almost looks like it could have been written in a weird position, like while the writer was leaning the pad up vertically on a wall or something. And probably in very low lighting, as well.

 

[desert]

The Rocky Mountain News has handwriting comparisons:

Yearbook inscription

Ransom note

Neither one could probably be considered a normal handwriting sample; the yearbook writing is very stylized and put-on (plus he was quite young), while the ransom note was obviously written under duress (remember how he was shaking and trembling during the confession?).

There are obvious differences but also some intriguing similarities, such as the a's, the slant of the l's, the w's, the I's, the t's, the d's, and the exclamation points. Also there is scribbling out in both samples.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

However, that's a really tough sample. I don't know if it's been faxed or how it's been degraded in other ways. It almost looks like it could have been written in a weird position, like while the writer was leaning the pad up vertically on a wall or something. And probably in very low lighting, as well.

I definitely agree that the faxing or copying, etc., makes it tougher to tell with certain things. However, the different slants wouldn't be affected by that. (Interestingly, the three A's in Atlanta were exactly what I was looking at when I first noticed the different slants within the same word.)

I also don't get the impression that this note was written in a hurry or in low lighting (but I certainly could be wrong). The letters are mostly distinct, not running together as if thrown together quickly. Also, the words are very close to the lines on the paper. I actually find that odd in relation to the scribbling and the all over slant.

 

[Anngelique]

Wow, looking at the ransom note and his yearbook signing does look eerily similar. Here are a few similarities I see. The way he forms his a, t, r

The t has like a little hook on most of them in both samples. The a looks like the a here in this font. The biggest difference I see is the e. The e for the ransom note is a normal e where as the one for the yearbook is fancier.

 

[newtv]

the tough thing (though not really-truth is truth), sounds like the ex-wife cannot imagine him not being with her on those days

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

The e for the ransom note is a normal e where as the one for the yearbook is fancier.

That e seems so deliberate to me. I don't believe that that e would be a part of someone's usual writing.

Oh, one more thing about the erratic slant directions. You can also see the 11 in 11/2001 by the expiration date in the job application. This seems to be a recurrent thing in Karr's writing and the ransom note.

 

[luvbeaches]

There are obvious differences but also some intriguing similarities, such as the a's, the slant of the l's, the w's, the I's, the t's, the d's, and the exclamation points. Also there is scribbling out in both samples.

To me, the a's seem the same. It's a weird way to write an a. At least IMO.

Interesting. Thanks for posting.

 

[pinto]

Hmmm, some of the D's are the same ... same with R and P, where the rounded strokes extend over the straight part. I don't know how to describe that. The D's on pg 3 of the RN, the R in Ramsey in the salutation ... they are like the P and D's on pg 2 of the job app -- and the R in Regents on pg 1 of job app.

But not all are like this. Which leads me back to my other statement, that you can't rule in or out based on every little similarity and difference.

The one that gets me, though, is the d ... someone pointed it out, it's a quite unusual way to write a d, in one stroke, no down stroke on the straight part. And it's absolutely consistent from the yearbook to the ransom note. It doesn't exist in the job app, though.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Fox reporting on a letter (and showing it) that Karr wrote to a friend in high school in which he wrote "I SHALL BE THE CONQUERER" and they are speculating on whether "SBTC" means "Shall Be The Conquerer

For S.B.T.C., "I Shall Be The Conquerer" isn't even close, IMO. Its probably the initials of an institution or entity. It means something to the perp or the group to which the perp belongs.

Its one of those things that would likely be discovered after its known who killed JBR. Its almost impossible to say now what it stands for.

I wonder what JK says it stands for, or will he just say "I shall be the conqueror" now that he knows everybody's seen his yearbook or whatever.

 

[pinto]

.... now that he knows everybody's seen his yearbook or whatever.

Would he know, though? He's in a Thailand jail cell on suicide watch, and that info just came out today.

Still, it IS a stretch. But no bigger than any of the others ...

 

[luvbeaches]

Thanks...

 

[MistyM]

just out of curiosity. how many people here think the ramseys are guilty and the handwriting doesn't match, think the ramseys are not guilty and the handwriting doesn't match. or think they are guilty and it matches, and think they aren't guilty and that it matches.

does one's opinion of guilt make them find consistencies or inconsistencies in the analysis?

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

does one's opinion of guilt make them find consistencies or inconsistencies in the analysis?

Almost definitely, IMO. I think that the Ramseys are innocent, and I believe that there are strong similarities between the ransom note and John Karr. However, I'm not convinced that Karr is anything more than an obsessed pedophile.

As for matching Patsy's writing, I'm not sure yet. Does anyone have a link to a clear example of Patsy's writing? Every link I've tried has been hard for me to see.