SC - Columbia - Sheriff Slams Female Student to Floor In Class - #2

[al66pine]

We need al66pine to break it apart for the mathematical formula.
(I'm teasing in the most light-hearted way, al66, because I saw you ask for similar answers earlier. No snark/harm intended. )

No snark/harm perceived. No prob at all. Perfectly okay to tease me like that.
Also ack'ing not everything can be reduced to a mathematical formula.

Not sure which of my posts or others' posts you were referring to. I recall someone described (my paraphrasing --->) --
a certain school using a particular disciplinary method, and grades improved and/or violence did a 'turnaround.'
My question was -- was result replicated at other schools? (Could have been a diff thread, not sure)

Just wondering whether an MSM article claiming correlation was supported by legit, peer reviewed, controlled studies.
As always, questioning anecdotes & personal individual experiences related online.

Sometimes easy to overlook: correlation =/= causation. Can't speak for anyone else, but tease away.

 

[JeannaT]

Here's a thought... what happens if the schools remove all law enforcement and allowed the school admin. to deal with the students ; with absolutely no police involvement whatsoever ?

And for some students who don't want to follow the school's guidelines, use suspensions.
Shouldn't the school admin. be allowed to set the rules and enforce them as they see fit ; and with no other outside sources being brought in ?
MOO

That's the way it was when I was in high school. I don't recall a cop ever being there. There were big fit male teachers who were expected to be on hand to break up fights, etc., and they were actually paid a bonus for being a disciplinary aid or some other title. There wasn't anyone needed to subdue defiant but passive kids because there weren't any. There literally were no kids who would sit there in their chair and tell a VP they're not going to get up. They wouldn't be coming back to school after something like that.

 

[Hope4More]

Here's a thought... what happens if the schools remove all law enforcement and allowed the school admin. to deal with the students ; with absolutely no police involvement whatsoever ?

And for some students who don't want to follow the school's guidelines, use suspensions.
Shouldn't the school admin. be allowed to set the rules and enforce them as they see fit ; and with no other outside sources being brought in ?
MOO

Hear, hear! : )

School districts do need consistent policies about what essentially amounts to imposing boundaries, and there are lots of legalities that always get dragged into the mix, so a school by school policy on rules is unrealistic.

But I couldn't agree more that individual administrators should be capable of handling every student- involved situation short of physical mayhem , without having to rely on calling in the cops.


In most schools doing just that is precisely the assistant principal's job description.

 

[bluesneakers]

No snark/harm perceived. No prob at all. Perfectly okay to tease me like that.
Also ack'ing not everything can be reduced to a mathematical formula.

Not sure which of my posts or others' posts you were referring to. I recall someone described (my paraphrasing --->) --
a certain school using a particular disciplinary method, and grades improved and/or violence did a 'turnaround.'
My question was -- was result replicated at other schools? (Could have been a diff thread, not sure)

Just wondering whether an MSM article claiming correlation was supported by legit, peer reviewed, controlled studies.
As always, questioning anecdotes & personal individual experiences related online.

Sometimes easy to overlook: correlation =/= causation. Can't speak for anyone else, but tease away.

No, I was referring to when you asked for clarification on "many" and "a lot." Perfectly, legit, because they are totally subjective and could mean different things to different people. But you said something funny (I thought it was funny) about the numerical value or calculation, so when I saw the comment
"Some" and "many" aren't synonyms" I thought of you.

 

[JeannaT]

I think in reading through this, there are several ways posters process incidents. There are some people who look at a situation and assess ratios of blame, and assign each an amount of blame for what happened. For example, I find the student 40% to blame, the VP and teacher 0% to blame, and the RO 60% to blame. Or another way to process is to look at the student and say was her behavior within reason? Was the VP and teacher's behavior within reason? Was the ROs behavior within reason.

But I also see another way of processing the situation that I don't understand. It's the process of looking at a disturbing incident, deciding which people to blame for it, and once they are decided to be at fault, the fault of the others is zero. So it's very concrete thinking - you have the completely guilty, and you have the completely innocent.

AND, the completely guilty's actions could come after the completely innocent was acting abhorrently, but then the later completely guilty's behavior wipes clean the blame that the completely innocent would have received.

SO, this girl's behavior could be considered a problem up and until the point where the RO overreacts, and now she is blameless and should suffer no consequences or public opinion critiques. Her sin was washed completely clean by the actions of her opponent.

 

[sonjay]

That's the way it was when I was in high school. I don't recall a cop ever being there. There were big fit male teachers who were expected to be on hand to break up fights, etc., and they were actually paid a bonus for being a disciplinary aid or some other title. There wasn't anyone needed to subdue defiant but passive kids because there weren't any. There literally were no kids who would sit there in their chair and tell a VP they're not going to get up. They wouldn't be coming back to school after something like that.

It would seem that a lot of teachers and students would prefer that there be someone on campus who is ready, willing and able to step in and deal with problems.

Or are we going to make it a bona fide job requirement for junior high and high school teachers that they be big enough, strong enough, and well-trained enough in CQB or martial arts to deal with physical attacks by students?

[h=1]New Jersey teacher, 62, viciously attacked and slammed to the floor by student, 16, because he dared to confiscate boy's phone[/h]An out-of-control student got into a violent confrontation with his teacher after his phone was confiscated during class.

Some were seen moving away from the scene saying 'I'm out, I'm out' and others hollered for the security saying 'Someone help him'!


Lee McNulty, a retired JFK teacher told NorthJersey.com: 'What strikes me is that the teacher never even defended himself, that just shows how much teachers are afraid of losing their job.'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lams-teacher-floor-taking-away-cellphone.html

 

[bluesneakers]

I think in reading through this, there are several ways posters process incidents. There are some people who look at a situation and assess ratios of blame, and assign each an amount of blame for what happened. For example, I find the student 40% to blame, the VP and teacher 0% to blame, and the RO 60% to blame. Or another way to process is to look at the student and say was her behavior within reason? Was the VP and teacher's behavior within reason? Was the ROs behavior within reason.

But I also see another way of processing the situation that I don't understand. It's the process of looking at a disturbing incident, deciding which people to blame for it, and once they are decided to be at fault, the fault of the others is zero. So it's very concrete thinking - you have the completely guilty, and you have the completely innocent.

AND, the completely guilty's actions could come after the completely innocent was acting abhorrently, but then the later completely guilty's behavior wipes clean the blame that the completely innocent would have received.

SO, this girl's behavior could be considered a problem up and until the point where the RO overreacts, and now she is blameless and should suffer no consequences or public opinion critiques. Her sin was washed completely clean by the actions of her opponent.

What? I disagree. The girl and another classmate have been charged. I think she's changing schools but I imagine if she were to stay in the same school she would still face whatever the typical punishment is. (Someone posted the chart - 3 days suspension or something?) How does that work out to she's completely innocent?

 

[JeannaT]

What? I disagree. The girl and another classmate have been charged. I think she's changing schools but I imagine if she were to stay in the same school she would still face whatever the typical punishment is. (Someone posted the chart - 3 days suspension or something?) How does that work out to she's completely innocent?

I don't think for a minute she's innocent. That's what I'm saying I'm reading on here. Due to the behavior of the cop, some then perceive that the girl's behavior is now nullified.

That in a case like this there are the guilty, and the innocent, and not varying degrees of guilt that aren't dependent on how aggregious the other player's behavior was.

The school certainly doesn't find her completely innocent, but many on Websleuths appear to, IMHO.

 

[sonjay]

I don't think for a minute she's innocent. That's what I'm saying I'm reading on here. Due to the behavior of the cop, some then perceive that the girl's behavior is now nullified.

That in a case like this there are the guilty, and the innocent, and not varying degrees of guilt that aren't dependent on how aggregious the other player's behavior was.

The school certainly doesn't find her completely innocent, but many on Websleuths appear to, IMHO.

She's just exercising her right of free speech, standing up for what's right, and questioning authority in a healthy way.

 

[JeannaT]

She's just exercising her right of free speech, standing up for what's right, and questioning authority in a healthy way.

Thank you for helping me make my point, sonjay. I was just musing over how differently websleuths posters can honestly view things, similar to the gold/white and blue/black dress.

 

[DexterMorgan]

She's just exercising her right of free speech, standing up for what's right, and questioning authority in a healthy way.

Link Please? Lol.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Hugs

 

[al66pine]

....So Fields could have simply told the school that instead of extracting her violently for the minor infraction. It would be best to let her go about her business and suspend her at the end of the day. Jmo

^sbm Curious to see how you envision ^ will work.

Does SRO tell teacher & admin'r, just 4 easy steps?
"1. Now it's best not to remove her from classroom.
2. At end of school day, you two go to location x (admin'rs ofc).
3. Then based upon where her last class is scheduled, I'll wait outside classroom door, bring her to ofc.
4. You two can take what-ev disciplinary action."

Like this ^ in green, or another way the SRO can do this?

It's all good, except whoopsie, unless student leaves before last class?

And in above, even if student does not split -
- SRO still faces potential resistance & injury from student.
- Other students in hallway still face potential injuries from scuffling between two.
- Other students may join melee.
- Is it approp for LEO/SRO to tell teacher & admin'r, student's actions do not warrant immed removal from class?

IDK. I do not see likelihood of any win-win-win-win-win-win-win resolutions - for student, teacher, admin'r, LEO/SRO, school district, her guardian, Sheriff - with any approach. Could be wrong, JM2cts.

 

[sonjay]

Link Please? Lol.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Hugs

"standing up for what you think is right"
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...156890&highlight=standing+what's#post12156890

 

[sonjay]

Link Please? Lol.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Hugs

Exercising her constitutional rights

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...&p=12148997&highlight=exercising#post12148997

 

[sonjay]

Link Please? Lol.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Hugs

Questioning authority
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ent-to-Floor-In-Class&p=12145909#post12145909

www.websleuths.com/forums/showthrea...p=12146426&highlight=questioning#post12146426

 

[sonjay]

Link Please? Lol.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Hugs

I gave you your requested links.

Now please provide a link to the things you wrote.

 

[LaLaw2000]

What I see here is a student who has no respect for the teacher or for authority. The student did not get to the 12th grade without knowing that disruptive behavior in the classroom would not be tolerated. She clearly knew she shouldn't have even had that cell phone in her hand during class.

I also see a teacher who over-reacted in calling the officer into the classroom. I am much older than most all of you, but the way my teacher(s) would have handled it is to tell the class that we would now pause the class and remain quiet until the cell phone business was done. If it took the rest of the class, then so be it. The problem could have been dealt with at the end of the class time. Even though the student is a senior, the parents would and should have been contacted and the student suspended. The parents might have successfully dealt with their daughter at home.

The officer was clearly aggressive, IMO. I think he dealt with the situation in a manner he would have done if on the street. His training would have dictated giving warnings, then if his instructions were ignored he could have used more aggressive means such as the ones he used. BUT, this was not a street situation and I honestly believe he was way out of line to do as he did.

IMO, the student should have been suspended. The teacher(s) should have training in how to control their classroom(s). The teacher apparently passed off the problem to the officer when it could have been handled in a much different manner.

I know hindsight is 20/20, but there should never be a situation where a student is treated this aggressively unless he/she has a weapon or has physically threatened someone.

If this had been my daughter, I would have appreciated a call right then from the teacher or principal. I would have dealt with it at home. But no, the teacher felt it necessary to call the officer to the classroom because he could not, or thought he could not, handle it himself. What would have been wrong with just halting the class and remaining silent until the student either complied with putting the cell phone away or continued on until running the class time out? THEN the problem could have been dealt with.

IMO, some teachers need training in controlling their classrooms and taking a common sense approach to a problem such as this. IMO, school officers need training in handling non threatening and non violent student infractions.

There! I have had my say and am prepared for the tomatoes being thrown my way! Please throw fresh ones and I will make some great spaghetti sauce for dinner!

MOO

ETA: The students need to realize that there will be consequences to infractions of school rules, but not violent consequences. Suspensions, definitely.

 

[al66pine]

If other kids in the class had cell phones he was obviously having difficulty enforcing the no-cell-phones rule.

Would you be so kind as to show us - by copying and pasting relevant text, linking - that other kids' having cells in classroom violates school policy.

Not in text excerpted from school dist book (briefly & generally) says students there are prohibited from using cells during class. I could have missed it. Thx in adv.

(I know a few students took cells out, used & recorded event, so violated policy, but ^ says having cell = violation. TIA)
_________________________________________________

* Richland School District Two, Back-2-School Handbook, 2015-16, page 35 addresses students' cellphone, etc.
"High school students may use ECDs such as cellular phones, electronic pagers ... before and after school, during their lunch break, within “free zones” (as determined by the principal) and as deemed appropriate by the teacher and approved by the principal for educational and/or instructional purposes only. Any other use of wireless communications is considered misuse and violations may result in disciplinary action...." bbm
Can jump to dist & SVHS books ^ from https://www.richland2.org/svh/pages/Default.aspx

 

[DexterMorgan]

^sbm Curious to see how you envision ^ will work.

Does SRO tell teacher & admin'r, just 4 easy steps?
"1. Now it's best not to remove her from classroom.
2. At end of school day, you two go to location x (admin'rs ofc).
3. Then based upon where her last class is scheduled, I'll wait outside classroom door, bring her to ofc.
4. You two can take what-ev disciplinary action."

Like this ^ in green, or another way the SRO can do this?

It's all good, except whoopsie, unless student leaves before last class?

And in above, even if student does not split -
- SRO still faces potential resistance & injury from student.
- Other students in hallway still face potential injuries from scuffling between two.
- Other students may join melee.
- Is it approp for LEO/SRO to tell teacher & admin'r, student's actions do not warrant immed removal from class?

IDK. I do not see likelihood of any win-win-win-win-win-win-win resolutions - for student, teacher, admin'r, LEO/SRO, school district, her guardian, Sheriff - with any approach. Could be wrong, JM2cts.

A phone call to the home after school would suffice my friend. I doubt she would show up the next day. So I was not stating for him to escort her to the office nor off the premises.

 

[EllieBee]

I will throw some tomatoes your way, but not because of your post. I agree.

I just think spaghetti sounds good for din din tonight!!!

What I see here is a student who has no respect for the teacher or for authority. The student did not get to the 12th grade without knowing that disruptive behavior in the classroom would not be tolerated. She clearly knew she shouldn't have even had that cell phone in her hand during class.

I also see a teacher who over-reacted in calling the officer into the classroom. I am much older than most all of you, but the way my teacher(s) would have handled it is to tell the class that we would now pause the class and remain quiet until the cell phone business was done. If it took the rest of the class, then so be it. The problem could have been dealt with at the end of the class time. Even though the student is a senior, the parents would and should have been contacted and the student suspended. The parents might have successfully dealt with their daughter at home.

The officer was clearly aggressive, IMO. I think he dealt with the situation in a manner he would have done if on the street. His training would have dictated giving warnings, then if his instructions were ignored he could have used more aggressive means such as the ones he used. BUT, this was not a street situation and I honestly believe he was way out of line to do as he did.

IMO, the student should have been suspended. The teacher(s) should have training in how to control their classroom(s). The teacher apparently passed off the problem to the officer when it could have been handled in a much different manner.

I know hindsight is 20/20, but there should never be a situation where a student is treated this aggressively unless he/she has a weapon or has physically threatened someone.

If this had been my daughter, I would have appreciated a call right then from the teacher or principal. I would have dealt with it at home. But no, the teacher felt it necessary to call the officer to the classroom because he could not, or thought he could not, handle it himself. What would have been wrong with just halting the class and remaining silent until the student either complied with putting the cell phone away or continued on until running the class time out? THEN the problem could have been dealt with.

IMO, some teachers need training in controlling their classrooms and taking a common sense approach to a problem such as this. IMO, school officers need training in handling non threatening and non violent student infractions.

There! I have had my say and am prepared for the tomatoes being thrown my way! Please throw fresh ones and I will make some great spaghetti sauce for dinner!

MOO

ETA: The students need to realize that there will be consequences to infractions of school rules.