SC - Paul Murdaugh & mom Margaret Found Shot To Death - Alex Murdaugh Accused - Islandton #23

[mrjitty]

Umm.........

* Patrick Frazee got life in prison without the possibility of parole for killing Kelsey Berreth, ALL on circumstantial evidence.

* Tammy Moore received 30 years in prison on circumstantial evidence.

* Scott Peterson received life in prison on circumstantial evidence.

The list goes on......

Also the videos are all direct evidence and they are the biggest evidence against the accused.

 

[Kembo]

Great that AM was not as particular as Davis regarding the hose.
Hose was most important in removing evidence from his clothes, and himself, before he left.
So now we have Bubba and hose giving evidence.

But didn't the defense counter that the video showed the hose being on the ground, implying it could have been used by Paul or Maggie after RDD left at 4:30? They could have been watering the kennels themselves, or perhaps the water from the dish might have spilled also. Plus, a killer other than AM might have had reason to quickly hose themselves off before fleeing the scene. IMO

 

[minusfour]

I'm so pleased to read that Maggie was well represented by a person who loved her today. I understand her guilt at encouraging Maggie to go to Moselle that night, but I one hundred percent believe if it hadn't happened that night, it would have happened the next day, or soon after. Someone had been thinking about it for a long time.

To me, it sounds likely that Alex abused opiods, but that is quite a different thing to being an addict. I have some friends who think it's perfectly ok to use recreational drugs every now and then. There seems little evidence of addiction, to opiods at least. (I think it likely he was quite a heavy drinker, and gambled more than he could afford/control)

The defence suggesting that it was Paul is low.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

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They'll probably use that clip in the closing. But there are so many good ones to choose from.

 

[mrjitty]

Coming fresh to this case, IMO the key evidential thread is not motive but obstruction.

Staging a road side shooting to support the theory he told to police and/or escape justice is obstruction.

Lying to police about his alibi and movements during the shooting is obstruction

Destroying / removing evidence is obstruction.

Obstruction is clear and important evidence of guilt. He obstructed justice from the opening seconds when police arrived at the scene, preventing them from discovering his deceptions until much later after he had a chance to destroy evidence.

We don't then throw our hands in the air and say oh well there is only circumstantial evidence and no hard forensics because the accused managed to obstruct the investigation. We draw natural and obvious inferences.

 

[mrjitty]

The attempted suicide on the roadside did not lead to the murders because it happened after the fact. The prosecution is trying to bring this in to facilitate his overall motive for the murders and that doesn't fly.

Some may find it hard to believe that murdering your son and wife to alleviate any reckoning with financial crimes is what happened here, but most could believe it.

His defense of suicide so his son could collect the insurance money has no bearing on the murders.

BIB. The prosecution is bringing it up as evidence of his attempts to obstruct justice which began in the opening seconds of the investigation.

 

[mrjitty]

Thank you @10ofRods.

Seldom do jurors leave their common sense outside the deliberation room.

Placing aside all experts and big dollar defense, when your wife and child are murdered at the family home, an innocent man has no reason to lie about anything -- and certainly not about crucial details of when/where you last saw your wife and child. JMO

Or if he did have some reason to lie - evidential foundation for these reasons must be placed in evidence by the defence and not speculated into existence.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Plus, a killer other than AM might have had reason to quickly hose themselves off before fleeing the scene. IMO

And to coil the hose and hang it back up? Such a nice killer that was, to treat the place as though he lived there. What sweetheart.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Edited to add: so while you might think a trial needs something directly tying a person to the crime, legally it isn't required. Circumstantial evidence IS evidence and the state has every right and I'd say even an obligation to present that evidence

All evidence is circumstantial to some degree. The distinction between direct and indirect or circumstantial evidence is as myth.

 

[Warwick7]

I want to point out in the video they showed, PAUL was in the kennel messing with Cash. We can hear the hose in the background going.

 

[mrjitty]

All evidence is circumstantial to some degree. The distinction between direct and indirect or circumstantial evidence is as myth.

I think lay people just use the phrase in a colloquial way e.g they say there is no direct evidence like DNA or blood, when those are actually circumstantial forms of evidence.

Similarly the video directly proves the accused was at the crime scene before the shooting without need for inference, but it gets dismissed as circumstantial

 

[Warwick7]

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AM told LE they ate supper and he started napping at 8 and slept till 9.

If Paul got there at 6:30 how in the world did he drive around with Paul for 2 hours like he says in that video?? He is lying.

 

[Warwick7]

The housekeeper said that Maggie did not want to be at the estate.

Maggie's sister testified she had to talk MM into going that night.

We may not have heard any one testify they heard Alex acting "fishy." But the principle is the same. She did NOT want to go.

 

[mrjitty]

AM told LE they ate supper and he started napping at 8 and slept till 9.

If Paul got there at 6:30 how in the world did he drive around with Paul for 2 hours like he says in that video?? He is lying.

This is why I believe AM realistically has to testify.

What was he actually doing at these key times?

It won't do for defence counsel to speculate new possibilities, or claim we can't really know what AM was doing while he sits silent. The Jury must draw the obvious and logical inference - not accept purely speculative alternate alibis.

it is for the defence to introduce an evidential foundation of when AM left the kennels, and why he lied.

 

[chaz]

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If AM did not believe they were dead, did he ask first responders to perform CPS to save his family?

 

[CrownCowboy1]

BIB. The prosecution is bringing it up as evidence of his attempts to obstruct justice which began in the opening seconds of the investigation.

Which ultimately points to his overall motive that they are trying to tie into it. Again, the incident happened after the fact of the murders. You can't say he murdered them because of the roadside incident.

Maybe use it as some kind of character thing which would bring in biases from another case to influence this one in my opinion but not for the motive.

 

[Warwick7]

Woooo eeeee!!! I did not know this.

"Murdaugh had told 911 operators and SLED investigators previously that the last time he had seen his wife was roughly two hours before the killings, and on Nov. 14, 2022, his attorneys filed a "motion of alibi defense" claiming that he "was not present at the time" of the killings."

Alex Murdaugh trial: Paul Murdaugh's phone offers evidence from beyond grave, friends testify

New evidence and testimony offered Wednesday afternoon shocked Murdaugh family members in attendance. The latest updates, analysis and video.

www.greenvilleonline.com

 

[mrjitty]

Which ultimately points to his overall motive that they are trying to tie into it. Again, the incident happened after the fact of the murders. You can't say he murdered them because of the roadside incident.

Maybe use it as some kind of character thing which would bring in biases from another case to influence this one in my opinion but not for the motive.

Perhaps you misunderstood my post.

It doesn't go to motive or character. It goes to a pattern of obstruction. Obstruction is what happens after the fact to cover up a crime by the guilty party. Evidence of obstruction is strong evidence of guilt. For example, staging a crime scene. Creating a fake alibi. Tampering with witnesses. Lying to investigators. Destruction of evidence.

 

[Warwick7]

But didn't the defense counter that the video showed the hose being on the ground, implying it could have been used by Paul or Maggie after RDD left at 4:30? They could have been watering the kennels themselves, or perhaps the water from the dish might have spilled also. Plus, a killer other than AM might have had reason to quickly hose themselves off before fleeing the scene. IMO

The hose was being used in the video when Paul was video taping Cash. Then his phone went dead within a couple minutes. He was killed then.

 

[CrownCowboy1]

Perhaps you misunderstood my post.

It doesn't go to motive or character. It goes to a pattern of obstruction. Obstruction is what happens after the fact to cover up a crime by the guilty party. Evidence of obstruction is strong evidence of guilt. For example, staging a crime scene. Creating a fake alibi. Tampering with witnesses. Lying to investigators. Destruction of evidence.

I didn't get the prosecution going for that angle more so than trying to create a motive because that's what they mentioned. That's why the defense immediately began refuting that angle.

Regardless of what they were going for, I don't think it should be admitted as pertains to this murder. They have already attacked his character with things that happened before the murder that they have tried to established aided his overall motive.