GUILTY SC - Twins Davion & Trevon Wilson, 9 mos, smothered, Moncks Corner, 11 Oct 2006

[SadieMae]

I'm not trying to be bigoted. Both of the cases I've read about involve black mothers. I'm seeing a pattern forming.

I don't see how there is a pattern based on two incidents. That would be like saying only white women let their boyfriends kill their child. The last few women with those stories were white, yet I know there are stories of black and hispanic women's children killed by their boyfriends. The only pattern I see they all have in common is ignorance, selfishness, immaturity, poverty. Those qualities are not exclusive by race.

 

[southcitymom]

I don't see how there is a pattern based on two incidents. That would be like saying only white women let their boyfriends kill their child. The last few women with those stories were white, yet I know there are stories of black women's children killed by their boyfriends. The only pattern I see they all have in common is ignorance, selfishness, immaturity, poverty. Those qualities are not exclusive by race.

I like this entire post, especially the part I highlighted.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I'm not sure there's a person out there - at least honest ones, who can't look back at their life and see at least one time they acted horribly. Certianly it didn't extend to murder, and again, I am not excusing this woman, but just making a general statement that we all have "bad inside" and it's gotten out at least once though not to this magnitude.

I don't know if I wasn't clear enough in my post above but -

I was attempting to give a glimps into the mind of an extremely mentally ill, over-whelmed, 22 year old new mother who knew without a doubt she could harm her own child, her flesh and blood.... but didn't!

I know about being bad inside- I know about living with a monster inside of my soul. I know what it is like to hear "voices" inside my head and I understand what it is like to want to strike your own child.

I also know and knew then, even in the grasp of mental illness, that before I would harm my child I would take my own life!! And I do not say that lightly.

If this woman was going through even half of what I did, I understand how easily she could have lost control, I honestly do! She lived up to what she expected of herself- she failed her children. In the state she was in, it was probably easier to kill the kids then to fight her "monster"... And she proved to herself that she is what she always knew she was...

Mental illness is all we know and we allow it to define us (Before we get help) and we sometimes grip it like it's our life-line, our baby blanket! Our only comfort. Our worst enemy (Mental illness) is also our best friend.

She is a weak coward who chose mental illness over her own children, as far as I'm concerned!

I don't write about my mental illness because I enjoy it or am proud of it, because I don't -and- I'm not. It's very painful remembering what I used to be- and embarrasing to talk about, but I find it very important to attempt to rid the stigma attached to it. Stories like this one and people like this "Mother" do not help the cause.

I talk about my illness and my recovery because I want people to know that we mentally ill are not all like this woman! Most of us are good, loving, caring and strong- we battle our "Monster" on a daily basis and will do so until the day we die because we don't want it and will not allow it to win[/I]!

People like this woman make me sick and sad and angry! How dare she think she is more important to this world then her children were! How dare she!!

(Damn, I need to stop coming to this thread, huh? LOL)

 

[OneLostGrl]

I'm not trying to be bigoted. Both of the cases I've read about involve black mothers. I'm seeing a pattern forming.

Me too- people blaming their bad and or criminal behavior on Mental illness!

 

[southcitymom]

Me too- people blaming their bad and or criminal behavior on Mental illness!

Thanks, OneLostGirl, for being so honest and candid about your path. I think it's awesome that you are in recovery.

I read a lot of posts on Websleuths that say what you do - people who are tired of other people blaming their bad or criminal behavior on mental illness. I'm not trying to be dense here, but I never understand what people mean when they say this.

When I hear that someone has committed a terrible crime and then later, as the facts of the case are uncovered and diclosed, I hear that the person who committed the crime suffers from some form of mental illness, I don't feel like the person is blaming their disease for their actions. Blame is the word I am confused about.

I've never heard a defendant say "I only did it because I am bipolar!", but I have heard plenty of people argue rightly that mental illness was or is a contributing factor in crimes. This seems like common sense to me.

In the case we are discussing on this thread, I've seen no evidence that this woman is blaming her behavior on mental illness, but I would bet my last dollar that this woman suffers from some type of mental illness.

Not all, or even most, people who suffer from mental illness commit crimes. However, many crimes that are committed have a mental illness component to them. I don't see how this fact stigmatizes those who suffer from mental illness. And I don't see how people who point out this fact are blaming anything.

 

[SewingDeb]

Is this woman mentally ill or is she simply a sociopath? A sociopath is not necessarily mentally ill but they do have total disregard for others and would kill a child to make it easier to take a nap as easily as most of us would swat a fly.

I think what people mean when they say they are tired of people blaming their crimes on mental illness or childhood abuse or whatever is that they are tired of defense attornies bringing these things up to excuse a crime.

 

[southcitymom]

Is this woman mentally ill or is she simply a sociopath? A sociopath is not necessarily mentally ill but they do have total disregard for others and would kill a child to make it easier to take a nap as easily as most of us would swat a fly.

I think what people mean when they say they are tired of people blaming their crimes on mental illness or childhood abuse or whatever is that they are tired of defense attornies bringing these things up to excuse a crime.

"Simply a sociopath" doesn't make much sense to me - could you explain further? There is certainly a mental illness component to being a sociopath!

As far as the attorney blame thing - it's a defense attorney's job to bring up anything that could defend and/or mitigate the crimes their clients are accused of doing. Why are we tired of them doing their jobs? Why is that seen as blame?

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I don't know if I wasn't clear enough in my post above but -

I was attempting to give a glimps into the mind of an extremely mentally ill, over-whelmed, 22 year old new mother who knew without a doubt she could harm her own child, her flesh and blood.... but didn't!

I know about being bad inside- I know about living with a monster inside of my soul. I know what it is like to hear "voices" inside my head and I understand what it is like to want to strike your own child.

I also know and knew then, even in the grasp of mental illness, that before I would harm my child I would take my own life!! And I do not say that lightly.

If this woman was going through even half of what I did, I understand how easily she could have lost control, I honestly do! She lived up to what she expected of herself- she failed her children. In the state she was in, it was probably easier to kill the kids then to fight her "monster"... And she proved to herself that she is what she always knew she was...

Mental illness is all we know and we allow it to define us (Before we get help) and we sometimes grip it like it's our life-line, our baby blanket! Our only comfort. Our worst enemy (Mental illness) is also our best friend.

She is a weak coward who chose mental illness over her own children, as far as I'm concerned!

* * *
(Damn, I need to stop coming to this thread, huh? LOL)

Your sentence ". . . who chose mental illness over her own children..." is the BEST description of what took place that I've ever read! Congratulations. You've hit the nail on the head. I think there is that moment where you KNOW you need help. It may be brief. It may not be. But, I think its there. You knew you needed help and you sought it out. I, for one, am glad that you're here to help us understand what goes through the mind of someone struggling. We've got to remember that these "stories" we read and comment about are real people just like us. People who face real life problems and make real life decisions. Thank you very much!!!!!

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thanks, OneLostGirl, for being so honest and candid about your path. I think it's awesome that you are in recovery.

I read a lot of posts on Websleuths that say what you do - people who are tired of other people blaming their bad or criminal behavior on mental illness. I'm not trying to be dense here, but I never understand what people mean when they say this.

When I hear that someone has committed a terrible crime and then later, as the facts of the case are uncovered and diclosed, I hear that the person who committed the crime suffers from some form of mental illness, I don't feel like the person is blaming their disease for their actions. Blame is the word I am confused about.

I've never heard a defendant say "I only did it because I am bipolar!", but I have heard plenty of people argue rightly that mental illness was or is a contributing factor in crimes. This seems like common sense to me.

In the case we are discussing on this thread, I've seen no evidence that this woman is blaming her behavior on mental illness, but I would bet my last dollar that this woman suffers from some type of mental illness.

Not all, or even most, people who suffer from mental illness commit crimes. However, many crimes that are committed have a mental illness component to them. I don't see how this fact stigmatizes those who suffer from mental illness. And I don't see how people who point out this fact are blaming anything.

Blame, to me, includes "I couldn't stop myself" or "I had no control".

Everyone has choices in life. We choose to make the right choices or the wrong ones. We don't act criminally because of a mental illness, we choose to let our illness get so bad and our souls so sick that it's easier to allow it to make our choices for us.

Blame, to me, includes, "I was already sick and then I got pregnant again and became sicker" or "I didn't realize that drinking while taking my medication would make me so angry".

You are absolutely correct when you say mental illness is a contributing factor to many crimes but my response to that is that in this day and time, with the help that is available, there is no excuse for these people to go untreated, there is no excuse to continue "getting" pregnant (How many birth control methods are out now adays?) when you know how the hormonal changes screw with your mental illness.

Blame to me includes, "I went off of my medication because it made me numb, made me loose my creativity" or "My medications made me gain too much weight so I stopped taking them".

You are right again when you say this woman has not yet "blamed" being mentally ill for what she did, and again I agree with you, I have no doubt in my mind that this woman probably does have a mental illness... and that sucks, it honestly does- we don't ask to be mentally ill, it happens *to* us!

But I will go a step furthur and say she probably never sought help or was offically diagnosed with anything... and for that *I* blame her.
I'll also say this- diagnosed or not, one *knows* they are sick, you know your anger is irrational, your thoughts not quite right and more often then not, they don't want to be this way, but for whatever reason they tell themselves, they remain this way nonetheless.


Blame, to me, includes, "I didn't go to the doctor for help because I was afraid I'd loose my children" or "I just couldn't stand them crying anymore".


Perhaps it's people like me, strong enough to ask for and get help and change and grow and fight.. gain weight and risk Liver damage, cognative issues and Diabieties from our medication and loose our creativity.. learn how to cry and sooth our souls when we hurt rather then get angry and lash out.

Perhaps it is people like me who need to recall, keep fresh in our minds, what and who we used to be to remind ourselves what we never want to become again, who are doing the blaming because we see in these people what could easily be us had we been weak or ever become weak.

Perhaps, more often then not, it is me blaming them out of resentment for their lack of hard work to over-come their illness, and not them blaming their own pathology.

Thank you for your post, you made me think!

 

[eve]

When it comes to criminal cases and mental illness, the only thing I can revert to for guidance is the legal definition of insanity - i.e. not being able to distinguish right from wrong because of mental illness or, in some jurisdictions, not being able to appreciate the consequences of one's actions, or something to that effect.

That being said, mental illness certainly bears on many crimes but one is not absolved from responsibility criminally unless the legal tests are met. It doesn't happen as often as people think either, it is a hard defense to win.

Eve

 

[OneLostGrl]

Your sentence ". . . who chose mental illness over her own children..." is the BEST description of what took place that I've ever read! Congratulations. You've hit the nail on the head. I think there is that moment where you KNOW you need help. It may be brief. It may not be. But, I think its there. You knew you needed help and you sought it out. I, for one, am glad that you're here to help us understand what goes through the mind of someone struggling. We've got to remember that these "stories" we read and comment about are real people just like us. People who face real life problems and make real life decisions. Thank you very much!!!!!

I'm glad I made sense LOL- sometimes I don't know if I will or not!

There isn't just a moment in time that we realize we need help... Before I got help, I knew every moment of every day that I needed it. Starting at around age 12 I always knew I was different. Was reminded of it daily when my actions and thoughts and REactions were unlike my friends.

That's a lot of wasted moments feeling wrong and not right.. that's a lot of moments we can be helping ourselves and changing the outcome of who and what we will become... who we hurt and how badly we hurt them.

We are really our own victims but if we do nothing to change and bring others into our lives, we are only creating more victims and we really have no right to do that!

 

[southcitymom]

Blame, to me, includes "I couldn't stop myself" or "I had no control".

Everyone has choices in life. We choose to make the right choices or the wrong ones. We don't act criminally because of a mental illness, we choose to let our illness get so bad and our souls so sick that it's easier to allow it to make our choices for us.

Blame, to me, includes, "I was already sick and then I got pregnant again and became sicker" or "I didn't realize that drinking while taking my medication would make me so angry".

You are absolutely correct when you say mental illness is a contributing factor to many crimes but my response to that is that in this day and time, with the help that is available, there is no excuse for these people to go untreated, there is no excuse to continue "getting" pregnant (How many birth control methods are out now adays?) when you know how the hormonal changes screw with your mental illness.

Blame to me includes, "I went off of my medication because it made me numb, made me loose my creativity" or "My medications made me gain too much weight so I stopped taking them".

You are right again when you say this woman has not yet "blamed" being mentally ill for what she did, and again I agree with you, I have no doubt in my mind that this woman probably does have a mental illness... and that sucks, it honestly does- we don't ask to be mentally ill, it happens *to* us!

But I will go a step furthur and say she probably never sought help or was offically diagnosed with anything... and for that *I* blame her.
I'll also say this- diagnosed or not, one *knows* they are sick, you know your anger is irrational, your thoughts not quite right and more often then not, they don't want to be this way, but for whatever reason they tell themselves, they remain this way nonetheless.


Blame, to me, includes, "I didn't go to the doctor for help because I was afraid I'd loose my children" or "I just couldn't stand them crying anymore".


Perhaps it's people like me, strong enough to ask for and get help and change and grow and fight.. gain weight and risk Liver damage, cognative issues and Diabieties from our medication and loose our creativity.. learn how to cry and sooth our souls when we hurt rather then get angry and lash out.

Perhaps it is people like me who need to recall, keep fresh in our minds, what and who we used to be to remind ourselves what we never want to become again, who are doing the blaming because we see in these people what could easily be us had we been weak or ever become weak.

Perhaps, more often then not, it is me blaming them out of resentment for their lack of hard work to over-come their illness, and not them blaming their own pathology.

Thank you for your post, you made me think!

Thanks for this well-thought out post. I appreciate it and relate to much of what you wrote. I am in recovery from what some people would (but some people wouldn't!) call a disease and, much like mental illness, it is a disease that can lead me and my actions into dark, terrible places if I don't do what's necessary to keep myself healthy.

It sounds like you and I have had similar experiences - just with different demons.

It does take strength and grace and love for yourself to "ask for and get help and grow and fight and change." I have compassion for those who stay in darkness when they know something is wrong, but that certainly doesn't excuse the choices they make from those dark places.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Is this woman mentally ill or is she simply a sociopath? A sociopath is not necessarily mentally ill but they do have total disregard for others and would kill a child to make it easier to take a nap as easily as most of us would swat a fly.

I think what people mean when they say they are tired of people blaming their crimes on mental illness or childhood abuse or whatever is that they are tired of defense attornies bringing these things up to excuse a crime.

I believe a person with Anti-social personality disorder (The "New" term for a Sociopath or Psychopath) is indeed mentally ill. I also believe a Sociopath is bred and not born.

That being said, I don't think there is "help" for a Sociopath, I don't believe medication can make them normal. But they do strive very hard to appear normal. I also don't see a Sociopath beginning their criminal career by killing their child.

If this woman were a Sociopath she would not feel enough for her children that she would put them in her bed with her to sleep. These babies would not have mattered to her yet they are described by police as well dressed and well cared for with no signs of previous abuse or neglect. She had the babies Baptized.

This is not Sociopathic behavior.

This stuff begins in childhood and there would be a hell of a long line of people telling stories of the horrible things this woman has done to them.
This girls pastor said "She was a very, very quiet and orderly girl"

No, I don't see this girl being a Sociopath.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thanks for this well-thought out post. I appreciate it and relate to much of what you wrote. I am in recovery from what some people would (but some people wouldn't!) call a disease and, much like mental illness, it is a disease that can lead me and my actions into dark, terrible places if I don't do what's necessary to keep myself healthy.

It sounds like you and I have had similar experiences - just with different demons.

It does take strength and grace and love for yourself to "ask for and get help and grow and fight and change." I have compassion for those who stay in darkness when they know something is wrong, but that certainly doesn't excuse the choices they make from those dark places.

I think Mental illness and drug and alcohol addiction are very much alike and often go hand in hand.. Do we have one because we have the other? (Does that make sense?)

Most mentally ill people, myself included, have or have had addiction issues. I call those times my self medicating times- when in fact the pain killers and alcohol fueled my illness. So did the addictive relationships, with addicted men, I always managed to involve myself in.

Sadly, both the addiction and mental illness are genetic. It was handed down to me and my siblings and so far, even though I am "well" mentally, I have handed mental illness on down to my precious son. Because I knew what to watch out for, he is getting help much sooner then I did and can hopefully avoid a lot of the hard lessons.
And because I have made an example of myself he knows it isn't a death sentence.

Anyway, back to the woman we are disussing in this thread-

I know we all have different "bottoms" but I just cannot see how a person couldn't have hit rock bottom before killing their children with their own hands!

 

[southcitymom]

I think Mental illness and drug and alcohol addiction are very much alike and often go hand in hand.. Do we have one because we have the other? (Does that make sense?)

Most mentally ill people, myself included, have or have had addiction issues. I call those times my self medicating times- when in fact the pain killers and alcohol fueled my illness. So did the addictive relationships, with addicted men, I always managed to involve myself in.

Sadly, both the addiction and mental illness are genetic. It was handed down to me and my siblings and so far, even though I am "well" mentally, I have handed mental illness on down to my precious son. Because I knew what to watch out for, he is getting help much sooner then I did and can hopefully avoid a lot of the hard lessons.
And because I have made an example of myself he knows it isn't a death sentence.

Anyway, back to the woman we are disussing in this thread-

I know we all have different "bottoms" but I just cannot see how a person couldn't have hit rock bottom before killing their children with their own hands!

Yes, I hope we get some more information on this case. I couldn't find anything else when I looked.

For some time these children were obviously cared for (baptisized, no other signs of physical abuse) - I wonder if some precipitating event caused her to do this.

 

[montana_16]

Go ahead and rant. I don't believe this was rage induced or meth- there's been too many of these stories lately, one locally for me, young black mothers who just can't handle their babies crying, so they kill them without a thought!!!:furious: :banghead: :banghead: :behindbar

The words in this post are just outrageous! :furious: :banghead: I know plenty of wonderful black mothers and white mothers and mothers of all races, And bad ones also of all races. And some are young.

You know, I love websleths. But I think I just have to leave here. I know there are several people here that will be glad to hear that.

I just can't understand why racist statements like that are o.k. here. And I know I'll be jumped on for saying it, but dear god that is totally racist.

I know there are some horrible black mothers but it is not just limited to them.

 

[southcitymom]

The words in this post are just outrageous! :furious: :banghead: I know plenty of wonderful black mothers and white mothers and mothers of all races, And bad ones also of all races. And some are young.

You know, I love websleths. But I think I just have to leave here. I know there are several people here that will be glad to hear that.

I just can't understand why racist statements like that are o.k. here. And I know I'll be jumped on for saying it, but dear god that is totally racist.

I know there are some horrible black mothers but it is not just limited to them.

The original poster explained herself later in this thread. I agree that the post sounded racist. I am willing to give the poster the benefit of the doubt that she did not intend it that way. Also, she could be accused of ageism by lumping young mothers in there, but I am not willing to accuse her of that either.

It sounds like she had recently read two similar stories regarding two young black women and this flavored her post.

 

[SewingDeb]

"Simply a sociopath" doesn't make much sense to me - could you explain further? There is certainly a mental illness component to being a sociopath!

There is no mental illness component to being a sociopath. Rather it is a lack of conscience. Here's some reading on the subject:

People who cannot contain their urges to harm (or kill) people repeatedly for no apparent reason are assumed to suffer from some mental illness. However, they may be more cruel than crazy, they may be choosing not to control their urges, they know right from wrong, they know exactly what they're doing, and they are definitely NOT insane, at least according to the consensus of most scholars (Samenow 2004). In such cases, they usually fall into one of three types that are typically considered aggravating circumstances in addition to their legal guilt -- antisocial personality disorder (APD), sociopath, or psychopath -- none of which are the same as insanity or psychosis.

Much more at this link:

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm

As far as the attorney blame thing - it's a defense attorney's job to bring up anything that could defend and/or mitigate the crimes their clients are accused of doing. Why are we tired of them doing their jobs? Why is that seen as blame?

I am well aware that they are only doing their jobs. I don't happen to like the excuses they use to try to get obviously guilty (confessed, DNA matches, caught in the act, etc.) off.

Many people have had horrible childhoods, been tortured and abused and it has made them more compassionate, not less. Everyone has choices in life unless they are totally insane. JMO.

 

[SewingDeb]

I'm glad I made sense LOL- sometimes I don't know if I will or not!

There isn't just a moment in time that we realize we need help... Before I got help, I knew every moment of every day that I needed it. Starting at around age 12 I always knew I was different. Was reminded of it daily when my actions and thoughts and REactions were unlike my friends.

That's a lot of wasted moments feeling wrong and not right.. that's a lot of moments we can be helping ourselves and changing the outcome of who and what we will become... who we hurt and how badly we hurt them.

We are really our own victims but if we do nothing to change and bring others into our lives, we are only creating more victims and we really have no right to do that!

I am so glad you sought treatment and did not let your monster overcome your sense of right and wrong. Kudos to you.

 

[SewingDeb]

Yes, I hope we get some more information on this case. I couldn't find anything else when I looked.

For some time these children were obviously cared for (baptisized, no other signs of physical abuse) - I wonder if some precipitating event caused her to do this.

I think it remains to be seen whether she is mentally ill or just plain cruel. I hope we do get more information.

I am sure her attorney will blame post partum depression or psychosis whether she actually suffered from either one or not.