SIDEBAR #56 - Travis Alexander forum

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:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

Just don't take MY boy toy! :giggle:


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Link: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/48/f9/ca/48f9cac9e75de99a762626623105840d.jpg


boytoyLOGO.gif

Link: http://www.ironydesign.com/gallery/boytoyLOGO.gif

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Link: http://www.lovethispic.com/uploaded_images/83821-Boy-Toy.jpg

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Link: http://41.media.tumblr.com/02bc0f4203ac995c62c9615967ecb5f6/tumblr_mzcw4o6K8E1s9dzyuo1_1280.jpg

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Link: https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.car...fle-prize-hunk-toyboy-toy_boy-abr1345_low.jpg

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Link: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/dc/47/94/dc47943680346d9f56a20d2a324b2eb7.jpg

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Link: https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.car...couples-relationships-husband-jco0301_low.jpg

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Link: http://31.media.tumblr.com/3a312c09d474c9fd837fd23ba3b6ac6c/tumblr_inline_nqpwzgbIu81s3wabl_500.gif

:groucho:

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
 
Oh my gosh, that's too terrible to watch. To me it sounds almost like some form of schizophrenia what with the delusional beliefs and all, I'll try to go back and watch some more, but IDK.... :scared: And how can a licensed professional be a part of something so heinous, unethical, IMO.

Sounds horrible, doesn't it.
dis-like-smiley.gif


My first thought is that she needs more attention than she was getting (and being blind brings attention to the person- who do need more attention/care than people with sight). What she did to herself (with the help of a unethical, IMO, psychologist) is bringing a lot of attention to her life now thru the news (maybe she'll even write a book??) and Dr Phil just swooped in, as he does, to grab some attention for himself and for her on TV. I don't know and as my "theory" may be wrong- off to research.

Working down the wormhole, this is what I found:

explanation-smiley.gif


Body integrity identity disorder

"...It is not medically recognized by the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5. BIID is related to xenomelia, "the oppressive[clarification needed] feeling that one or more limbs of one's body do not belong to one's self".[6]..

Sufferers of BIID are uncomfortable with a part of their body, such as a limb, and feel confident that removing or disabling this part of their body will relieve their discomfort. Sufferers may have intense feelings of envy toward amputees. They may pretend that they are an amputee, both in public and in private. Sufferers experience the above symptoms as being strange and unnatural. They may try to injure themselves to require the amputation of that limb...

(is this envy for the attention that the amputee receives or just because the amputee is living the life that they themselves wants???)

A sexual motivation for being or looking like an amputee is called apotemnophilia..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder
--

Stumped? A beginner’s guide to xenomelia and body integrity and identity disorder

"...A recent paper by Dr. Leoni Hiltie and her colleagues in the journal Brain, also reported a similar related condition that they call ‘xenomelia’ that is defined as “the oppressive feeling that one or more limbs of one’s body do not belong to one’s self”. In yet another paper in a 2012 issue of American Behavioral Scientist, Dr. Jenny Davis refers to such individuals as being born ‘incorrectly-able bodied’ and thus defines the condition as ‘transableism’...

Some psychologists, such as Dr. Robert Bruno (writing in a 1997 issue of the Journal of Sexuality and Disability, argue that those wanting to amputate a healthy limb are suffering from a Factitious Disability Disorder (FDD) and is akin to Munchausen’s Syndrome.

FDDs are conditions in which disability – real or pretended – provide an opportunity for the sufferer to be loved and attended to where no such opportunity has otherwise existed. The commonality between both conditions is they engage in the behaviour “for the sake of being a patient” (to receive the care and attention that would otherwise not be obtainable). Bruno argues that those with BIID need only one – albeit very extreme – medical intervention that leaves them with a lasting and obvious stigma of disability that they believe will permanently satisfy their need for love and attention.

However, other authors (such as Jenny Davis) point out that many such individuals simply believe they were born with an incorrectly-able body and that the desire for amputation has little to do with wanting to be a patient but want to have a healthy limb amputated just to feel normal and complete..."

https://drmarkgriffiths.wordpress.c...lia-and-body-integrity-and-identity-disorder/
----

More indepth-

Xenomelia: A Social Neuroscience View of Altered Bodily Self-Consciousness

"...philosophers and scientists agree that knowledge about how the brain processes bodily sensations and plans executive action is key to the understanding of the experience of being a conscious self (Blanke and Metzinger, 2009). However, an individual’s bodily self-consciousness is not fully predefined by genes and neural circuits. It is constantly compared with others’ relationships to their bodies and evaluated against cultural norms about bodily appearance. In this article we will review work on xenomelia, one variant of the normal relationships between body and self, that is the desire of a healthy individual to have a fully functional limb amputated. We propose a social neuroscience of xenomelia that unifies neurological, psychological, and sociological approaches to bodily self-consciousness.."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3634160/

F1


(A view of xenomelia research that integrates three approaches. While the crosstalk between neurological (“brain-based”) and psychological (“mind-based”) approaches is commonplace, anthropological, and social studies of bodily appearance and its modifications have been neglected in neuroscience accounts. A social neuroscience view of xenomelia respects the interactions between an individual’s perception of the own body in relation to others’ bodies and as influenced by normative standards. It will also explore the neural correlates of these interactions and investigate, for instance, the constraints of empathy by social norms, or the impact of a person’s preconceptions of a “handicapped body” on brain function and structure.)
----------------

Apotemnophilia

"Apotemnophilia (or "stump play") is sexual arousal based on the image or fantasy of one's self as an amputee.."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotemnophilia
----

Transableism

"Transableism is a term that refers to the desire to acquire a disability through choice rather than happenstance. This move may be as a re-alignment of their physical body with their perceived identity, or as a form of body modification for aesthetic or other reasons. The former has been medicalised through the construction of Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) while the latter may still remain outside of the medical sphere.

To date, there is a very limited academic literature on the phenomenon of transableism...

http://wp.stu.ca/narrativestudies/research/transableism/
--

Translating Transableism: when being able-bodied becomes a disability

"...hey are known by a variety of names, not all of which mean exactly the same thing; Pretenders, Wannabes, transableists and, in medical parlance, sufferers of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, or BIID. What unites them is their intense need to acquire a disability, and the difficulty that can cause to their able-bodied lives. Apart from these similarities though, they are as diverse a group of people as you could expect to find. They come from all walks of life, from social workers to lawyers, homemakers to students, and many different nationalities. No-one really understands why they feel the way they do, and no-one really knows exactly how many people are affected. Sometimes there are feelings of sexual desire towards people with disabilities that pre-empt the condition, but for most it is a case of their internal body image not matching their physical bodies. Many parallels are drawn with transgenderism, and the idea of feeling that they were born into the wrong body; only in this case, it is not the whole body that is at odds, just one part...

People with BIID didn't choose to have it any more than somebody chooses to be bipolar, or have MS. It is a faulty wiring in the brain, a neurological, not psychological, disorder, and I have no control over it."

There is currently research being done in the United States that supports this theory. Dr Ryan believes that a group of neuro-scientists in California may have found an answer in the brain scans of patients.

"There is certainly some early evidence that points in that direction... They found a small area of their brain doesn't work normally.".."

http://www.abc.net.au/rampup/articles/2011/10/27/3349293.htm
----------------

So many things to consider and still no concrete answers from researching- very complicated, IMO.

A few opinions:

What A Disabled Person Thinks About ‘Transableism’

"...People who want so badly to be disabled are obviously mentally ill. If the “transabled” were taking razors to their arms (oops, trigger warning), or if their ideations were about suicide rather than physical debilitation, there would be no question that they require immediate mental health care. The idea that we would view “transableism” as anything but a mental disorder is alarming, unsettling, and wrong...

Transableism Makes Unfair Demands on Society

Third, you do not have a right to impose your illness on society. There is a basic concept familiar to anyone who goes through Political Science or Philosophy 101 known as the Harm Principle. The gist is that society shouldn’t stop you from doing what you please unless it harms others. While one could argue that the “transabled” aren’t harming anyone but themselves, the very act of deliberately imposing themselves on society is in fact the harm..."

http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/08/what-a-disabled-person-thinks-about-transableism/

The Woman Who Chose To Go Blind (And Why We Shouldn’t Hate Her)

"Entertaining the idea of deliberately disabling myself makes me shudder, and my first reaction to this story was anger. Being blind is hard enough without sighted people actively choosing the “lifestyle”. Further, what will sighted people think of us? The blind community suffers from ambassadorship syndrome, even if we try to combat that instinct, and I wondered what implications Jewel’s actions might mean for the rest of us? It’s very difficult to give people the right idea about what blindness is like, and viral anomalies like this one further distort the picture.

Of course, sensational news can lead one down many paths, some of them a bit ridiculous. I began imagining what would happen if more and more people did this sort of thing. Would people lose respect and compassion for disabled people in general? Would everyone I meet become suspicious, wondering whether I was a “real” blind person or just someone who poured drain cleaner in her eyes on purpose? Would we need to undergo rigorous testing to make sure we’re not voluntarily disabled during screening for benefits, accommodations, and other special services? I eventually managed to derail the hysteria in my head, which left me with the hefty question: how should I feel about Jewel?..

Then there is the very thorny (and legitimate) issue of accommodation: should someone who has deliberately disabled themselves be entitled to benefits, workplace accommodations, assistive technology grants and so on? Should someone who has purposefully blinded herself receive help for a disability she actually chose and embraced?..."

https://wheresyourdog.wordpress.com/tag/jewel-shuping/

And how about a view from NG?? :facepalm:

]Nancy Grace unleashes on shrink for purposely blinding patient (clip)

http://www.hlntv.com/shows/nancy-gr...es-on-psychologist-for-blinding-jewel-shuping

An indepth "opinion"

Transableism, disability and paternalism in public health ethics: Taxonomies, identity disorders and persistent unexplained physical symptoms

"...We suggest that transableism represents a useful construct which may contribute towards resolution of ongoing difficulties within public health ethics and theories of disability. In addition, we believe that it holds promise for the understanding of a significant proportion of patients presenting PUPS. We focus upon identity disorders, particularly in relation to what is currently termed Body Integrity Identity Disorder (henceforth, BIID), where sufferers report a subjective conviction that one or more of their limbs are superfluous, requesting medical assistance to remove the offending limb, repair the results of attempts at their self-removal or to provide prostheses and other assistance after removal. We have considered BIID elsewhere in relation to consent, capacity and the doctor/patient relationship (Mackenzie and Cox, 2005). One of us has also explored how the definition of addiction as a chronic relapsing disease within public health governance enables cycles of transitions between the rigours of rational liberal citizenship and the shriven status of the sick (Mackenzie, 2006). Since a central aim in this piece is evaluate the place of transableism within public health ethics, we will begin by considering the latter as a discursive context for the arguments which follow...

Transableism represents a nexus for these concerns. Public health promotion campaigns which seek to persuade us to eschew excessive indulgence in pleasures which may result in ill health have generally failed to persuade us to do so. In part, this is caused by a general response of healthy scepticism. Many of us fail to be convinced that our lifestyle choices are seriously harmful, nor that their possible health consequences should affect our entitlement to healthcare subsequently. Yet where the harm and the consequences are unequivocal, and result from autonomous choice, many agree that ideas of desert colour the usual assumption that healthcare should be provided according to need.."

http://www.researchgate.net/publica..._and_persistent_unexplained_physical_symptoms

:lookingitup:

:blah::blah::blah:

So- I'm more :scared: than before my research, but I did have a thoroughly interesting afternoon- 3 hours or so- reading about this ......"condition/disorder", if you will, so thanks for posting Gigi and Neesaki.
 
These ladies are a riot! :floorlaugh: I got started watching their videos now I can't stop. :giggle:

Truly--i can visualise my mom and her sister having those conversations/conflicts. They were like that alot---oh those sister's.
 
Spent Halloween at the barn, yet again as Knox was colicky. I wish I could put him on top of a dryer like we did with our kids. Just an episode, not that bad, but DDand I went over to feed him at 4:00 am. I was going to try and go by myself and not wake her, but I could not top the water buckets off with hot water by myself, so she had to go. Things were peaceful thank goodness.

Every time I get a call from my vet, I never know if it is good or bad. She was on her way to the barn at 8 pm and we met her there. Back to back severe colicks do not bode well, so I had to make arrangements in the event we had to put him down. I hope he continues running these exercises in futility for me for a long time. I pray then threaten with the euthanasia bottle.

The weather changes have not helped so a lot of horses colic when this happens. Ahhh. The things we do for love... And my internal clock is all messed up. It is now only 4:45 am, instead of 5:45 am. So now I can sleep hopefully and Knox will just quit teasing us, trying to get attention.

See you in Standard time!

It certainly seems like the Universe should have given a bit more of a reprieve, but hey, you gotta play the hand you're dealt.

Perhaps all these dire incidents are a way of making you 1) appreciate how truly special he is, and 2) help ease you towards the ultimate outcome, so you'll be better able to deal with it when it's the real thing.

Still, I know last night must have taxed you a great deal, both physically and emotionally. Hope you're resting up and somehow managing to find some measure of rejuvenation. :)
 
Dr Phil doing a show about her. I would think malpractice but she reveal doctor name. Crazy

I know, right? and from what I read he only treated her for two weeks before he agreed to help her achieve her goal? How is that not malpractice? I find the whole scenario very perplexing!
 
These ladies are a riot! :floorlaugh: I got started watching their videos now I can't stop. :giggle:

if the one on the right spoke to me that way, I don't think I'd turn my hearing aid on either...
 
Sounds horrible, doesn't it.
dis-like-smiley.gif


My first thought is that she needs more attention than she was getting (and being blind brings attention to the person- who do need more attention/care than people with sight). What she did to herself (with the help of a unethical, IMO, psychologist) is bringing a lot of attention to her life now thru the news (maybe she'll even write a book??) and Dr Phil just swooped in, as he does, to grab some attention for himself and for her on TV. I don't know and as my "theory" may be wrong- off to research.

Working down the wormhole, this is what I found:

explanation-smiley.gif


Body integrity identity disorder

"...It is not medically recognized by the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5. BIID is related to xenomelia, "the oppressive[clarification needed] feeling that one or more limbs of one's body do not belong to one's self".[6]..

Sufferers of BIID are uncomfortable with a part of their body, such as a limb, and feel confident that removing or disabling this part of their body will relieve their discomfort. Sufferers may have intense feelings of envy toward amputees. They may pretend that they are an amputee, both in public and in private. Sufferers experience the above symptoms as being strange and unnatural. They may try to injure themselves to require the amputation of that limb...

(is this envy for the attention that the amputee receives or just because the amputee is living the life that they themselves wants???)

A sexual motivation for being or looking like an amputee is called apotemnophilia..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder
--

Stumped? A beginner’s guide to xenomelia and body integrity and identity disorder

"...A recent paper by Dr. Leoni Hiltie and her colleagues in the journal Brain, also reported a similar related condition that they call ‘xenomelia’ that is defined as “the oppressive feeling that one or more limbs of one’s body do not belong to one’s self”. In yet another paper in a 2012 issue of American Behavioral Scientist, Dr. Jenny Davis refers to such individuals as being born ‘incorrectly-able bodied’ and thus defines the condition as ‘transableism’...

Some psychologists, such as Dr. Robert Bruno (writing in a 1997 issue of the Journal of Sexuality and Disability, argue that those wanting to amputate a healthy limb are suffering from a Factitious Disability Disorder (FDD) and is akin to Munchausen’s Syndrome.

FDDs are conditions in which disability – real or pretended – provide an opportunity for the sufferer to be loved and attended to where no such opportunity has otherwise existed. The commonality between both conditions is they engage in the behaviour “for the sake of being a patient” (to receive the care and attention that would otherwise not be obtainable). Bruno argues that those with BIID need only one – albeit very extreme – medical intervention that leaves them with a lasting and obvious stigma of disability that they believe will permanently satisfy their need for love and attention.

However, other authors (such as Jenny Davis) point out that many such individuals simply believe they were born with an incorrectly-able body and that the desire for amputation has little to do with wanting to be a patient but want to have a healthy limb amputated just to feel normal and complete..."

https://drmarkgriffiths.wordpress.c...lia-and-body-integrity-and-identity-disorder/
----

More indepth-

Xenomelia: A Social Neuroscience View of Altered Bodily Self-Consciousness

"...philosophers and scientists agree that knowledge about how the brain processes bodily sensations and plans executive action is key to the understanding of the experience of being a conscious self (Blanke and Metzinger, 2009). However, an individual’s bodily self-consciousness is not fully predefined by genes and neural circuits. It is constantly compared with others’ relationships to their bodies and evaluated against cultural norms about bodily appearance. In this article we will review work on xenomelia, one variant of the normal relationships between body and self, that is the desire of a healthy individual to have a fully functional limb amputated. We propose a social neuroscience of xenomelia that unifies neurological, psychological, and sociological approaches to bodily self-consciousness.."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3634160/

F1


(A view of xenomelia research that integrates three approaches. While the crosstalk between neurological (“brain-based”) and psychological (“mind-based”) approaches is commonplace, anthropological, and social studies of bodily appearance and its modifications have been neglected in neuroscience accounts. A social neuroscience view of xenomelia respects the interactions between an individual’s perception of the own body in relation to others’ bodies and as influenced by normative standards. It will also explore the neural correlates of these interactions and investigate, for instance, the constraints of empathy by social norms, or the impact of a person’s preconceptions of a “handicapped body” on brain function and structure.)
----------------

Apotemnophilia

"Apotemnophilia (or "stump play") is sexual arousal based on the image or fantasy of one's self as an amputee.."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotemnophilia
----

Transableism

"Transableism is a term that refers to the desire to acquire a disability through choice rather than happenstance. This move may be as a re-alignment of their physical body with their perceived identity, or as a form of body modification for aesthetic or other reasons. The former has been medicalised through the construction of Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) while the latter may still remain outside of the medical sphere.

To date, there is a very limited academic literature on the phenomenon of transableism...

http://wp.stu.ca/narrativestudies/research/transableism/
--

Translating Transableism: when being able-bodied becomes a disability

"...hey are known by a variety of names, not all of which mean exactly the same thing; Pretenders, Wannabes, transableists and, in medical parlance, sufferers of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, or BIID. What unites them is their intense need to acquire a disability, and the difficulty that can cause to their able-bodied lives. Apart from these similarities though, they are as diverse a group of people as you could expect to find. They come from all walks of life, from social workers to lawyers, homemakers to students, and many different nationalities. No-one really understands why they feel the way they do, and no-one really knows exactly how many people are affected. Sometimes there are feelings of sexual desire towards people with disabilities that pre-empt the condition, but for most it is a case of their internal body image not matching their physical bodies. Many parallels are drawn with transgenderism, and the idea of feeling that they were born into the wrong body; only in this case, it is not the whole body that is at odds, just one part...

People with BIID didn't choose to have it any more than somebody chooses to be bipolar, or have MS. It is a faulty wiring in the brain, a neurological, not psychological, disorder, and I have no control over it."

There is currently research being done in the United States that supports this theory. Dr Ryan believes that a group of neuro-scientists in California may have found an answer in the brain scans of patients.

"There is certainly some early evidence that points in that direction... They found a small area of their brain doesn't work normally.".."

http://www.abc.net.au/rampup/articles/2011/10/27/3349293.htm
----------------

So many things to consider and still no concrete answers from researching- very complicated, IMO.

A few opinions:

What A Disabled Person Thinks About ‘Transableism’

"...People who want so badly to be disabled are obviously mentally ill. If the “transabled” were taking razors to their arms (oops, trigger warning), or if their ideations were about suicide rather than physical debilitation, there would be no question that they require immediate mental health care. The idea that we would view “transableism” as anything but a mental disorder is alarming, unsettling, and wrong...

Transableism Makes Unfair Demands on Society

Third, you do not have a right to impose your illness on society. There is a basic concept familiar to anyone who goes through Political Science or Philosophy 101 known as the Harm Principle. The gist is that society shouldn’t stop you from doing what you please unless it harms others. While one could argue that the “transabled” aren’t harming anyone but themselves, the very act of deliberately imposing themselves on society is in fact the harm..."

http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/08/what-a-disabled-person-thinks-about-transableism/

The Woman Who Chose To Go Blind (And Why We Shouldn’t Hate Her)

"Entertaining the idea of deliberately disabling myself makes me shudder, and my first reaction to this story was anger. Being blind is hard enough without sighted people actively choosing the “lifestyle”. Further, what will sighted people think of us? The blind community suffers from ambassadorship syndrome, even if we try to combat that instinct, and I wondered what implications Jewel’s actions might mean for the rest of us? It’s very difficult to give people the right idea about what blindness is like, and viral anomalies like this one further distort the picture.

Of course, sensational news can lead one down many paths, some of them a bit ridiculous. I began imagining what would happen if more and more people did this sort of thing. Would people lose respect and compassion for disabled people in general? Would everyone I meet become suspicious, wondering whether I was a “real” blind person or just someone who poured drain cleaner in her eyes on purpose? Would we need to undergo rigorous testing to make sure we’re not voluntarily disabled during screening for benefits, accommodations, and other special services? I eventually managed to derail the hysteria in my head, which left me with the hefty question: how should I feel about Jewel?..

Then there is the very thorny (and legitimate) issue of accommodation: should someone who has deliberately disabled themselves be entitled to benefits, workplace accommodations, assistive technology grants and so on? Should someone who has purposefully blinded herself receive help for a disability she actually chose and embraced?..."

https://wheresyourdog.wordpress.com/tag/jewel-shuping/

And how about a view from NG?? :facepalm:

]Nancy Grace unleashes on shrink for purposely blinding patient (clip)

http://www.hlntv.com/shows/nancy-gr...es-on-psychologist-for-blinding-jewel-shuping

An indepth "opinion"

Transableism, disability and paternalism in public health ethics: Taxonomies, identity disorders and persistent unexplained physical symptoms

"...We suggest that transableism represents a useful construct which may contribute towards resolution of ongoing difficulties within public health ethics and theories of disability. In addition, we believe that it holds promise for the understanding of a significant proportion of patients presenting PUPS. We focus upon identity disorders, particularly in relation to what is currently termed Body Integrity Identity Disorder (henceforth, BIID), where sufferers report a subjective conviction that one or more of their limbs are superfluous, requesting medical assistance to remove the offending limb, repair the results of attempts at their self-removal or to provide prostheses and other assistance after removal. We have considered BIID elsewhere in relation to consent, capacity and the doctor/patient relationship (Mackenzie and Cox, 2005). One of us has also explored how the definition of addiction as a chronic relapsing disease within public health governance enables cycles of transitions between the rigours of rational liberal citizenship and the shriven status of the sick (Mackenzie, 2006). Since a central aim in this piece is evaluate the place of transableism within public health ethics, we will begin by considering the latter as a discursive context for the arguments which follow...

Transableism represents a nexus for these concerns. Public health promotion campaigns which seek to persuade us to eschew excessive indulgence in pleasures which may result in ill health have generally failed to persuade us to do so. In part, this is caused by a general response of healthy scepticism. Many of us fail to be convinced that our lifestyle choices are seriously harmful, nor that their possible health consequences should affect our entitlement to healthcare subsequently. Yet where the harm and the consequences are unequivocal, and result from autonomous choice, many agree that ideas of desert colour the usual assumption that healthcare should be provided according to need.."

http://www.researchgate.net/publica..._and_persistent_unexplained_physical_symptoms

:lookingitup:

:blah::blah::blah:

So- I'm more :scared: than before my research, but I did have a thoroughly interesting afternoon- 3 hours or so- reading about this ......"condition/disorder", if you will, so thanks for posting Gigi and Neesaki.


Thanks for all the research Y/N :) I'm familiar with factitious disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, and Munchhausen's but this one sounds like a whole new animal, lol. Although it's really not funny, it's tragic.
 
I know, right? and from what I read he only treated her for two weeks before he agreed to help her achieve her goal? How is that not malpractice? I find the whole scenario very perplexing!

Seriously, he sounds like a sadist to me. I can't imagine anyone with a conscience doing something so horrific to their mentally ill patient.
 
Hey!

Saw this on Facebook - thought I'd share this beautiful picture with all you horse fans!

Later!

:seeya:
 

Attachments

  • Horse&Pony.jpg
    Horse&Pony.jpg
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Sounds horrible, doesn't it.
dis-like-smiley.gif


My first thought is that she needs more attention than she was getting (and being blind brings attention to the person- who do need more attention/care than people with sight). What she did to herself (with the help of a unethical, IMO, psychologist) is bringing a lot of attention to her life now thru the news (maybe she'll even write a book??) and Dr Phil just swooped in, as he does, to grab some attention for himself and for her on TV. I don't know and as my "theory" may be wrong- off to research.

Working down the wormhole, this is what I found:

explanation-smiley.gif


Body integrity identity disorder

"...It is not medically recognized by the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5. BIID is related to xenomelia, "the oppressive[clarification needed] feeling that one or more limbs of one's body do not belong to one's self".[6]..

Sufferers of BIID are uncomfortable with a part of their body, such as a limb, and feel confident that removing or disabling this part of their body will relieve their discomfort. Sufferers may have intense feelings of envy toward amputees. They may pretend that they are an amputee, both in public and in private. Sufferers experience the above symptoms as being strange and unnatural. They may try to injure themselves to require the amputation of that limb...

(is this envy for the attention that the amputee receives or just because the amputee is living the life that they themselves wants???)

A sexual motivation for being or looking like an amputee is called apotemnophilia..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder
--

Stumped? A beginner’s guide to xenomelia and body integrity and identity disorder

"...A recent paper by Dr. Leoni Hiltie and her colleagues in the journal Brain, also reported a similar related condition that they call ‘xenomelia’ that is defined as “the oppressive feeling that one or more limbs of one’s body do not belong to one’s self”. In yet another paper in a 2012 issue of American Behavioral Scientist, Dr. Jenny Davis refers to such individuals as being born ‘incorrectly-able bodied’ and thus defines the condition as ‘transableism’...

Some psychologists, such as Dr. Robert Bruno (writing in a 1997 issue of the Journal of Sexuality and Disability, argue that those wanting to amputate a healthy limb are suffering from a Factitious Disability Disorder (FDD) and is akin to Munchausen’s Syndrome.

FDDs are conditions in which disability – real or pretended – provide an opportunity for the sufferer to be loved and attended to where no such opportunity has otherwise existed. The commonality between both conditions is they engage in the behaviour “for the sake of being a patient” (to receive the care and attention that would otherwise not be obtainable). Bruno argues that those with BIID need only one – albeit very extreme – medical intervention that leaves them with a lasting and obvious stigma of disability that they believe will permanently satisfy their need for love and attention.

However, other authors (such as Jenny Davis) point out that many such individuals simply believe they were born with an incorrectly-able body and that the desire for amputation has little to do with wanting to be a patient but want to have a healthy limb amputated just to feel normal and complete..."

https://drmarkgriffiths.wordpress.c...lia-and-body-integrity-and-identity-disorder/
----

More indepth-

Xenomelia: A Social Neuroscience View of Altered Bodily Self-Consciousness

"...philosophers and scientists agree that knowledge about how the brain processes bodily sensations and plans executive action is key to the understanding of the experience of being a conscious self (Blanke and Metzinger, 2009). However, an individual’s bodily self-consciousness is not fully predefined by genes and neural circuits. It is constantly compared with others’ relationships to their bodies and evaluated against cultural norms about bodily appearance. In this article we will review work on xenomelia, one variant of the normal relationships between body and self, that is the desire of a healthy individual to have a fully functional limb amputated. We propose a social neuroscience of xenomelia that unifies neurological, psychological, and sociological approaches to bodily self-consciousness.."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3634160/

F1


(A view of xenomelia research that integrates three approaches. While the crosstalk between neurological (“brain-based”) and psychological (“mind-based”) approaches is commonplace, anthropological, and social studies of bodily appearance and its modifications have been neglected in neuroscience accounts. A social neuroscience view of xenomelia respects the interactions between an individual’s perception of the own body in relation to others’ bodies and as influenced by normative standards. It will also explore the neural correlates of these interactions and investigate, for instance, the constraints of empathy by social norms, or the impact of a person’s preconceptions of a “handicapped body” on brain function and structure.)
----------------

Apotemnophilia

"Apotemnophilia (or "stump play") is sexual arousal based on the image or fantasy of one's self as an amputee.."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotemnophilia
----

Transableism

"Transableism is a term that refers to the desire to acquire a disability through choice rather than happenstance. This move may be as a re-alignment of their physical body with their perceived identity, or as a form of body modification for aesthetic or other reasons. The former has been medicalised through the construction of Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) while the latter may still remain outside of the medical sphere.

To date, there is a very limited academic literature on the phenomenon of transableism...

http://wp.stu.ca/narrativestudies/research/transableism/
--

Translating Transableism: when being able-bodied becomes a disability

"...hey are known by a variety of names, not all of which mean exactly the same thing; Pretenders, Wannabes, transableists and, in medical parlance, sufferers of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, or BIID. What unites them is their intense need to acquire a disability, and the difficulty that can cause to their able-bodied lives. Apart from these similarities though, they are as diverse a group of people as you could expect to find. They come from all walks of life, from social workers to lawyers, homemakers to students, and many different nationalities. No-one really understands why they feel the way they do, and no-one really knows exactly how many people are affected. Sometimes there are feelings of sexual desire towards people with disabilities that pre-empt the condition, but for most it is a case of their internal body image not matching their physical bodies. Many parallels are drawn with transgenderism, and the idea of feeling that they were born into the wrong body; only in this case, it is not the whole body that is at odds, just one part...

People with BIID didn't choose to have it any more than somebody chooses to be bipolar, or have MS. It is a faulty wiring in the brain, a neurological, not psychological, disorder, and I have no control over it."

There is currently research being done in the United States that supports this theory. Dr Ryan believes that a group of neuro-scientists in California may have found an answer in the brain scans of patients.

"There is certainly some early evidence that points in that direction... They found a small area of their brain doesn't work normally.".."

http://www.abc.net.au/rampup/articles/2011/10/27/3349293.htm
----------------

So many things to consider and still no concrete answers from researching- very complicated, IMO.

A few opinions:

What A Disabled Person Thinks About ‘Transableism’

"...People who want so badly to be disabled are obviously mentally ill. If the “transabled” were taking razors to their arms (oops, trigger warning), or if their ideations were about suicide rather than physical debilitation, there would be no question that they require immediate mental health care. The idea that we would view “transableism” as anything but a mental disorder is alarming, unsettling, and wrong...

Transableism Makes Unfair Demands on Society

Third, you do not have a right to impose your illness on society. There is a basic concept familiar to anyone who goes through Political Science or Philosophy 101 known as the Harm Principle. The gist is that society shouldn’t stop you from doing what you please unless it harms others. While one could argue that the “transabled” aren’t harming anyone but themselves, the very act of deliberately imposing themselves on society is in fact the harm..."

http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/08/what-a-disabled-person-thinks-about-transableism/

The Woman Who Chose To Go Blind (And Why We Shouldn’t Hate Her)

"Entertaining the idea of deliberately disabling myself makes me shudder, and my first reaction to this story was anger. Being blind is hard enough without sighted people actively choosing the “lifestyle”. Further, what will sighted people think of us? The blind community suffers from ambassadorship syndrome, even if we try to combat that instinct, and I wondered what implications Jewel’s actions might mean for the rest of us? It’s very difficult to give people the right idea about what blindness is like, and viral anomalies like this one further distort the picture.

Of course, sensational news can lead one down many paths, some of them a bit ridiculous. I began imagining what would happen if more and more people did this sort of thing. Would people lose respect and compassion for disabled people in general? Would everyone I meet become suspicious, wondering whether I was a “real” blind person or just someone who poured drain cleaner in her eyes on purpose? Would we need to undergo rigorous testing to make sure we’re not voluntarily disabled during screening for benefits, accommodations, and other special services? I eventually managed to derail the hysteria in my head, which left me with the hefty question: how should I feel about Jewel?..

Then there is the very thorny (and legitimate) issue of accommodation: should someone who has deliberately disabled themselves be entitled to benefits, workplace accommodations, assistive technology grants and so on? Should someone who has purposefully blinded herself receive help for a disability she actually chose and embraced?..."

https://wheresyourdog.wordpress.com/tag/jewel-shuping/

And how about a view from NG?? :facepalm:

]Nancy Grace unleashes on shrink for purposely blinding patient (clip)

http://www.hlntv.com/shows/nancy-gr...es-on-psychologist-for-blinding-jewel-shuping

An indepth "opinion"

Transableism, disability and paternalism in public health ethics: Taxonomies, identity disorders and persistent unexplained physical symptoms

"...We suggest that transableism represents a useful construct which may contribute towards resolution of ongoing difficulties within public health ethics and theories of disability. In addition, we believe that it holds promise for the understanding of a significant proportion of patients presenting PUPS. We focus upon identity disorders, particularly in relation to what is currently termed Body Integrity Identity Disorder (henceforth, BIID), where sufferers report a subjective conviction that one or more of their limbs are superfluous, requesting medical assistance to remove the offending limb, repair the results of attempts at their self-removal or to provide prostheses and other assistance after removal. We have considered BIID elsewhere in relation to consent, capacity and the doctor/patient relationship (Mackenzie and Cox, 2005). One of us has also explored how the definition of addiction as a chronic relapsing disease within public health governance enables cycles of transitions between the rigours of rational liberal citizenship and the shriven status of the sick (Mackenzie, 2006). Since a central aim in this piece is evaluate the place of transableism within public health ethics, we will begin by considering the latter as a discursive context for the arguments which follow...

Transableism represents a nexus for these concerns. Public health promotion campaigns which seek to persuade us to eschew excessive indulgence in pleasures which may result in ill health have generally failed to persuade us to do so. In part, this is caused by a general response of healthy scepticism. Many of us fail to be convinced that our lifestyle choices are seriously harmful, nor that their possible health consequences should affect our entitlement to healthcare subsequently. Yet where the harm and the consequences are unequivocal, and result from autonomous choice, many agree that ideas of desert colour the usual assumption that healthcare should be provided according to need.."

http://www.researchgate.net/publica..._and_persistent_unexplained_physical_symptoms

:lookingitup:

:blah::blah::blah:

So- I'm more :scared: than before my research, but I did have a thoroughly interesting afternoon- 3 hours or so- reading about this ......"condition/disorder", if you will, so thanks for posting Gigi and Neesaki.


Thanks for going to all that effort to compile this info! Very informative.

I, too, am still just as flummoxed as before. I was kind of expecting to see parallels to anorexia/bulimia and other body dysmorphic conditions. Surprised not to see that. Also would have thought to see someone postulating that it's some variant form of Munchausen.

Like you, I'm left with more questions than answers. It's very puzzling how some brains develop and evolve. But in the end, it makes me very grateful for being as "normal" as I am. haha
 
I know, right? and from what I read he only treated her for two weeks before he agreed to help her achieve her goal? How is that not malpractice? I find the whole scenario very perplexing!

I don't normally watch Dr. Phil, but if anyone is interested:

Thursday - November 5, 2015
A Dr. Phil Daytime Exclusive: The Woman Who Put Drain Cleaner in Her Eyes to Fulfill Her Dream of Being Blind


"Amber, aka “Jewel” Shuping, ... claims that seven years ago, she traveled 19 hours by train to visit a “sympathetic” psychologist whom she met online, and allowed him to pour liquid drain cleaner into both of her eyes. In a Dr. Phil daytime exclusive, hear why Jewel says she felt she had no choice but to take her vision, and hear the bombshell claim she drops about removing one of her eyes! Then, Dr. Michael First, who coined the term, “Body Integrity Identity Disorder,” and Dr. Travis Stork, host of The Doctors, weigh in! "

http://www.drphil.com/shows/

What channel is he on?
 
Hey!

Saw this on Facebook - thought I'd share this beautiful picture with all you horse fans!

Later!

:seeya:

That is so gorgeous! It's a miracle how painters can capture the beauty of what they are seeing and paint, IMO. It's almost a photograph, but much better.
Just love it.

attachment.php
 
Thanks for going to all that effort to compile this info! Very informative.

I, too, am still just as flummoxed as before. I was kind of expecting to see parallels to anorexia/bulimia and other body dysmorphic conditions. Surprised not to see that. Also would have thought to see someone postulating that it's some variant form of Munchausen.

Like you, I'm left with more questions than answers. It's very puzzling how some brains develop and evolve. But in the end, it makes me very grateful for being as "normal" as I am. haha

BBM Yea- I'm normal too :razz:

:okay:

:skip:

:tomato:

:hilarious:

(but I really understand where you are coming from :) )
 
I'm tired of gloom-and-doom :daisy:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Woman Goes To The Doctor

A woman goes to the Doctor, worried about her husband's temper.

The Doctor asks: "What's the problem?"

The woman says: "Doctor, I don't know what to do. Every day my husband seems to lose his temper for no reason. It scares me."

The Doctor says: "I have a cure for that. When it seems that your husband is getting angry, just take a glass of water and start swishing it in your mouth. Just swish and swish but don't swallow it until he either leaves the room or calms down."

Two weeks later the woman comes back to the doctor looking fresh and reborn.

The woman says: "Doctor that was a brilliant idea! Every time my husband started losing it, I swished with water. I swished and swished, and he calmed right down! How does a glass of water do that?"

The Doctor says: "The water itself does nothing. It's keeping your mouth shut that does the trick."
-------------------------------------

A Politician Dies And Has To Spend Just ONE Day In Hell.

A politician dies and ends up standing in front of the pearly gates. Saint Peter looks at him for a second, flicks through his book, and finds his name.

"So, you're a politician..."

"Well, yes, is that a problem?"

"Oh no, no problem. But we've recently adopted a new system for people in your line of work, and unfortunately you will have to spend a day in Hell. After that however, you're free to choose where you want to spend eternity!"

"Wait, I have to spend a day in Hell?!" says the politician. "Those are the rules," replies St Peter, clicks his fingers, and WOOMPH, the guy dissapears. He awakes, curled up with his hands over his eyes, knowing he's in Hell. Cautiously, he listens for the screams, sniffs the air for brimstone, and finds... Nothing. Just the smell of, is that fabric softener? And cut grass, this can't be right?

"Open your eyes!" says a voice. "C'mon, wakey wakey, we've only got 24 hours!" Nervously, he uncovers his eyes, looks around, and sees he's in a hotel room. A nice one too. Wait, this is a penthouse suite... And there's a smiling man in a suit, holding a martini. "Who are you??" The politician asks.

"Well, I'm Satan!" says the man, handing him the drink and helping him to his feet. "Welcome to Hell!"

"Wait, this is Hell? But... Where's all the pain and suffering?" he asks.

Satan throws him a wink. "Oh, we've been a bit misrepresented over the years, it's a long story. Anyway, this is your room! The minibar is of course free, as is the room service, there's extra towels next to the hot-tub, and if you need anything, just call reception. But enough of this! It's a beautiful day, and if you'd care to look outside..."

Slightly stunned by the opulent surroundings, the man wanders over to the floor-to-ceiling windows through which the sun is glowing, looks far down, and sees a group of people cheering and waving at him from a golf course.

"It's one of 5 pro-level courses on site, and there's another 6 just a few minutes drive out past the beach and harbour!" says Satan, answering his unasked question.

So they head down in the lift, walk out through the glittering lobby where everyone waves and welcomes the man, as Satan signs autographs and cheerily talks shop with the laughing staff. And as he walks out, he sees the group on the golf course are made up of every one of his old friends, people he's admired for years but never met or worked with, and people whose work he's admired but died long before his career started. And out of the middle of this group walks his wife, with a massive smile and the body she had when she was 20, who throws her arms around him and plants a delicate kiss on his cheek. Everyone cheers and applauds, and as they slap him on the back and trade jokes, his worst enemy arrives, as a 2 foot tall goblin-esque caddy. He spends the day in the bright sunshine on the course, having the time of his life laughing at jokes and carrying important discussions, putting the world to rights with his friends while holding his delighted wife next to him as she gazes lovingly at him.

Later, they return to the hotel for dinner and have an enormous meal, perfectly cooked. As everyone is falling about laughing and flinging bread sticks at each other, his wife whispers in his ear... And they return to their penthouse suite, and spend the rest of the night making love like they did on their honeymoon. After hours of passion, the man falls deep into the 100% Egyptian cotton pillows, and falls into a deep and happy sleep... and is woken up by St Peter.

"So, that was Hell. Wasn't what you were expecting, I bet?" "No sir!" says the man. "So then," says St Peter. "You can make your choice. It's Hell, which you saw, or Heaven, which has choral singing, talking to God, white robes, and so on."

"Well... I know this sounds strange, but on balance, I think I'd prefer Hell," says the politician. "Not a problem, we totally understand! Enjoy!" says St Peter, and clicks his fingers again.

The man wakes up in total darkness, the stench of ammonia filling the air and distant screams the only noise. As he adjusts, he can see the only light is from belches of flame far away, illuminating the ragged remains of people being tortured or burning in a sulphurous ocean. A sudden bolt of lightning reveals Satan next to him, wearing the same suit as before and grinning, holding a soldering iron in one hand and a coil of razor-wire in the other. "What's this??" He cries. "Where's the hotel?? Where's my wife??? Where's the minibar, the golf-courses, the pool, the restaurant, the free drinks and the sunshine???"

"Ah", says Satan. "You see, yesterday, we were campaigning. But today, you voted."
------------------------------------

An Old Farmer Catches A Group Of Women Skinny Dipping In His Pond

An elderly man in Louisiana had owned a large farm for several years. He had a large pond in the back. It was properly shaped for swimming, so he fixed it up nice with picnic tables, horseshoe courts, and some apple and peach trees.

One evening the old farmer decided to go down to the pond, as he hadn't been there for a while, and look it over. He grabbed a five-gallon bucket to bring back some fruit.

As he neared the pond, he heard voices shouting and laughing with glee. As he came closer, he saw it was a bunch of young women skinny-dipping in his pond.

He made the women aware of his presence and they all went to the deep end. One of the women shouted to him: "We're not coming out until you leave!"

The old man frowned, "I didn't come down here to watch you ladies swim naked or make you get out of the pond naked."

Holding the bucket up he said, "I'm here to feed the alligators!"

Some old men can still think fast.
----------------------------------------------------------------

He Says He's Too Smart For 2nd Grade, So His Teacher Puts Him To The Test

A second grade teacher was having trouble with one of her students. One day she asked Johnny what his problem was, and he replied, "I'm too smart for the second grade, my sister is in the third grade and I'm smarter than her too."

The teacher took him to the principal's office and explained the situation to him.

The principal told her that he would give Johnny a test, and if he failed to answer one question, he would go back to the second grade and be quiet.

The teacher and Johnny both agreed.

Principal: "What is 3 x 3?"
Johnny: "9."

Principal: "6 x 6?"
Johnny: "36."

So, it went on like this. The principal asked him every question a third grader should know. Finally, after about an hour, he told the teacher, "I see no reason why Johnny can't go to the third grade, he answered all of my questions right."

The teacher asked if she could ask him some questions. The principal and Johnny agreed.

Teacher: "What does a cow have 4 of that I only have 2 of?"
Johnny: "Legs."

Teacher: "What do you have in your pants that I don't have?" The principal gasped, but before he could stop him from answering, Johnny answered.
Johnny: "Pockets."

Teacher: "What does a dog do that a man steps into?"
Johnny: "Pants."

Teacher: What starts with F and ends with K and means a lot of excitement?"
Johnny: "Firetruck."

The principal breathed a big sigh of relief and said: "Put Johnny in the fifth grade, I got the last 4 questions wrong myself."
----------------------------------------------------------

Dad's New Wife Tries To Ruin Her Wedding Day, But Then Her Real Mom Comes To The Rescue

ennifer's wedding day was fast approaching. Nothing could dampen her excitement – not even her parents' nasty divorce.

Her mother had found the perfect dress to wear, and would be the best-dressed mother-of-the-bride ever!

A week later, Jennifer was horrified to learn that her father's new, young wife had bought the exact same dress as her mother.

Jennifer asked her father's new young wife to exchange it, but she refused. "Absolutely not! I look like a million bucks in this dress, and I'm wearing it," she replied.

Jennifer told her mother who graciously said, "Never mind sweetheart. I'll get another dress. After all, it's your special day."

A few days later, they went shopping, and did find another gorgeous dress for her mother.

When they stopped for lunch, Jennifer asked her mother, "Aren't you going to return the other dress? You really don't have another occasion where you could wear it."

Her mother just smiled and replied, "Of course I do, dear. I'm wearing it to the rehearsal dinner the night before the wedding."
---------------------------------------------------------------------

He Told His Wife He's Going To Give A Speech On Water Skiing At Church.

In Church there is a family that has recently been baptized. After a month of being new members the Bishop calls them in separately to see how they are doing. During an interview with the father, the bishop asks,

“"Will you give a talk next Sunday in Church?”"

The new convert replies, “"Sure, but what would you like me to give my talk on?”"

“"On anything you feel that would be beneficial to the congregation, like past experiences and such that have changed your life in a positive way.”"

So he goes home and immediately starts thinking about what he would like to speak on. One night as he is working on his talk his wife comes up to him and asks,

"“So honey, what are you going to give your talk on?”"

"“Well, after much thought, I have decided to give a talk on water skiing.”"

“"Water skiing! What? This is Church we are talking about; you can’t give a talk on water skiing. It would be indecent!”"

“"The Bishop said I can give a talk on anything I wanted to and I want to give it on water skiing!”"

Her husband is known to be a big joker so she shrugs it off not worrying about it for the time being. As Sunday comes though, she starts to get nervous and can’t take it any longer. When they arrive at the church parking lot she says to him,

“"Alright sweetheart, the jokes over. What are you really going to give your talk on?”"

"“I was being serious; I really am going to give a talk on water skiing!”"

His wife responds, “"Well, if that’s the way you are going to be, me and the kids do not want to be embarrassed by this, so we will wait out here in the car while you give your talk!”"

“"Fine, be that way!”" He replies.

So he goes into Church while his family stays in the car. As he sits down and waits for his turn to speak, he thinks it over and realizes that his wife is probably right. Talking about water skiing in Church? What was I thinking?!! So he goes to his back up plan. He gives a talk on adultery. After he gives his talk and the session ends he goes back to the parking lot to get his wife and kids and to apologize for the way he acted. But before he could say anything to them the Bishop comes up and turns to his wife and remarks,

“"Your husband gave one of the best talks in Church. I mean there wasn’'t even a dry eye in the room after he finished!”"

The wife stared at the Bishop incredulously and said,

"“You must be joking! He’'s only done it twice. Once with my mother and once with my sister and couldn'’t get up either time!!”"
-------------------------------------------------------

He Wanted A Divorce From His Wife.

A Polish man moved to the United States and married an American girl. Although his English was far from perfect, they got along very well until one day he rushed into a lawyer's office and asked him if he could arrange a divorce for him - "very quick."

The lawyer said that the speed for getting a divorce would depend on the circumstances, and asked him the following questions:

Lawyer: "Have you any grounds?"

Man: "JA, JA, acre and half and nice little home."

Lawyer: "No," I mean what is the foundation of this case?"

Man: "It made of concrete."

Lawyer: "Does either of you have a real grudge?"

Man: "No, we have carport, and not need one."

Lawyer: "I mean, what are your relations like?"

Man: "All my relations still in Poland."

Lawyer: "Is there any infidelity in your marriage?"

Man: "Ja, we have hi- fidelity stereo set and good DVD player."

Lawyer: Does your wife beat you up?"

Man: "No, I always up before her."

Lawyer: "WHY do you want this divorce?"

Man: "She going to kill me."

Lawyer: "What makes you think that?"

Man: "I got proof.

Lawyer: "What kind of proof?"

Man: "She going to poison me. She buy a bottle at drugstore and put on shelf in bathroom. I can read, and it says:

i0fh7-polish-remover.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Every clock in my house has a different time. When the time changes I know that it gets darker until December 21, and I'm that in January, at six o'clock there is still daylight, and my pear and peach tree will bloom around my father's birthday in February, and my sister's birthday is five days after the first day of spring.


Also in March Casey Anthony will be thirty years old. Was that good life worth it?



[video=youtu;maT4phfTXR4]http://youtu.be/maT4phfTXR4[/video]
 
1944 - The whimsical tale about an invisible rabbit named Harvey opened in New York City. One year later, the play by Mary Chase won the Pulitzer Prize for Drama. Movie fans remember the classic film, starring Jimmy Stewart in one of his most famous roles.

(I've always loved this movie)


[video=youtu;bNl4cGotBkk]http://youtu.be/bNl4cGotBkk[/video]
 
Hi I like , Where I live in the winter nothing grows!! The page took forever to load, drives me nuts!!!:loveyou:
 
https: //www.youtube.com/watchttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5DSIPYLXKIh?v=s5DSIPYLXKI

For your listening Pleasure...
 
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