Similar Crime Scenes

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

The case is so interesting in that it is so similar, the injuries, etc. IMO, what we have here is John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey hiring the best lawyers to do the best deception. Also, John Ramsey, in his suits and his very calm manner, does not look the type. Every time I see him, I say this man did this???? He looks so sincere and so far from the David Westerfields of the world. Patsy is more believable as a perpertrator because one can look at her and say "I can see her losing her temper". This is the way most people see this case, I believe.

They did an excellent job. Also, it is so hard to believe that they would keep such a high profile, as the day I saw them literally running across the street hand in hand to announce that Patsy passed her lie detector test. She looks enthralled with the whole scenario. She could not have looked happier and I will be honest, I felt she came across as very likable.

But after all of it, when I come back to the case, there is no evidence of anyone else and lots of evidence pointing towards them.

The case you posted is fascinating because the injuries are practically the same; it is so similar to Jon Benet and there is just no ignoring that JonBenet was molested.

For some reason, John Ramsey is adamant that there were no FBI on the scene and Bill Kurtis opens his documentary with Ron Wood (I Believe that is his name) FBI, saying he was there. So why does John continue with that. In his latest interview, he repeated it.

Thanks for your post UK. Let me know why you think John Ramsey tries to put out the lie that the FBI was NOT there.

Solace,

The case you posted is fascinating because the injuries are practically the same; it is so similar to Jon Benet and there is just no ignoring that JonBenet was molested.

Yes the injuries are so similar down to the mucous from the nose and mouth, the abrasions and vaginal trauma. I posted it to highlight the alternative theory that JonBenet may have been asphyxiated whilst enduring a sexual assault?

This case is an old case, but is rich in details, information usually not available in more recent cases.

I'm not certain that the FBI made an official entrance that morning. I think they knew ahead of arriving just what to expect, once it was deemed a domestic homicide, and not an abduction, the case lay outside their jurisdiction, so I reckon they left quietly?

There has been speculation that John Ramsey may have phoned Lockheed Martin to report a kidnapping, executives of large corporations normally have a prepared protocol ready to apply to such events. They would automatically notify the FBI and resources would be deployed. The conspiracy theory is that JR took advice over the phone, prior to the 911 call, and agreed that the local lea would arrive before the FBI, then they would arrive as a formality afterwards, also JR had his legal attorneys on the street interviewing that day, so was it all pre-planned?


.

 

[JMO8778]

That makes a lot of sense,UK.I would think LM certainly would have done so.

 

[snowqueen]

<snip>

For some reason, John Ramsey is adamant that there were no FBI on the scene and Bill Kurtis opens his documentary with Ron Wood (I Believe that is his name) FBI, saying he was there. So why does John continue with that. In his latest interview, he repeated it.

Thanks for your post UK. Let me know why you think John Ramsey tries to put out the lie that the FBI was NOT there.

From John Ramsey's standpoint I'm sure he felt there were no FBI agents on the scene and to a degree he is correct.

Ron Walker, FBI agent from Denver, and four other agents arrived in Boulder from Denver sometime between 10:00 - 11:00 a.m., but NOT AT THE RAMSEY HOME. They went to the BPD where the agents set up taps and traps on the Ramseys' telephone, but no FBI agent went to the home until JonBenet was found. Agent Walker then went with BPD Mason to the Ramsey home which was about the same time the Ramseys were being escorted out of their home.

In addition, Eller dismissed the FBI from the case shortly after JonBenet was found.

SO for all practical purposes, i.e., on the scene - doing an investigation, John Ramsey was correct.

 

[Solace]

From John Ramsey's standpoint I'm sure he felt there were no FBI agents on the scene and to a degree he is correct. I would ask why you are "sure" of anything that John Ramsey says. There is no reason for Agent Walker to lie and he says he was there.

Ron Walker, FBI agent from Denver, and four other agents arrived in Boulder from Denver sometime between 10:00 - 11:00 a.m., but NOT AT THE RAMSEY HOME. They went to the BPD where the agents set up taps and traps on the Ramseys' telephone, but no FBI agent went to the home until JonBenet was found. Agent Walker then went with BPD Mason to the Ramsey home which was about the same time the Ramseys were being escorted out of their home. Agent Walker also said "look at the parents". He was at the Ramsey home the day JonBenet was found and walked by the Ramseys.

In addition, Eller dismissed the FBI from the case shortly after JonBenet was found. I am talking about the day she was found. They were dismissed because it was now a murder and not a kidnapping. And they also offered their services which were refused by Eller, but they did offer them. John Ramsey knows this.

SO for all practical purposes, i.e., on the scene - doing an investigation, John Ramsey was correct.

I disagree. Agent Walker came in to the house, but he continually after the fact of Walker's being there says he NEVER WAS THERE. His reasoning, I believe, is to say that nobody cared enough. It is impossible that his lawyers did not know that Ron Walker was there. It is impossible that John Ramsey did not see the show that Kurtis aired where in the opening segment with John sweating profusely saying no FBI agents were there and then Kurtis switches to Agent Walker who says I was there. John would like to use this rhetoric to this day when he is being interviewed to his advantage. He knows full well that people watching would say, well, if the FBI was not there, how could this so called kidnapping crime be handled correctly. That is why I believe he continues with this charade.

And this is exactly one of the reasons why I believe that John Ramsey knows more than he is saying. He also said on theshow if the Police had insisted that he and Patsy be brought down to the Police Dept. for questioning, things would have been much better for everyone and for that reason, he says he believes, the case went downhill. He said on that show that he and Patsy SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT IN, AND YET, he is adamant that it was impossible for Patsy to be interviewed. So which is it?

IMO, the facade that John puts on for any particular show that he is on just emphasizes the fact that he is lying about something. He is very good at taking the attention away from his actions as when he says to Larry King i n answer to why he hired lawyers immediately "We didn't just hire lawyers Larry; I also hired the best detectives in the country". He does not answer the question and does not get called on it.

I sincerely believe this case will never be solved unless there is an enormous breakthrough in science. But the case that UK posted is similar right down to the mucous coming out of her nose and the blood on the underwear. JonBenet was being molested. I was one of those who said well the chronic infections could have caused some bleeding and maybe so, but they did not cause the enlargement that JonBenet had. Someone was penetrating her. She was six years old and that just does not happen through an infection and there was scar tissue and that does not happen from an infection. Just my opinion and I do respect yours, I just disagree.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Ugh, I'm so tired of people covering up for John Ramsey in relation to the FBI being there.

The bottom line is, John Ramsey had more than enough time between 12/26/96 and 2000 when DOI was published to find out what the facts are in his daughter's murder investigation, and there's no reason for him not to know the details of his daughter's murder investigation. He had every opportunity to find out if FBI were on the case and in his house in those three years, and he still chose to publish misleading information in their book, designed to portray them as victims of the BPD.

Ramsey goes so far as to say that BPD held the FBI "at bay", when the truth is, BPD were the ones who notified FBI of a kidnapping in the first place, and Sergeant Mason himself drove Agent Walker over to the Ramsey house. JR was introduced to Sgt. Mason, who walked in with Agent Walker. I'd be surprised if JR hadn't also been introduced to Agent Walker.

It's more important to John Ramsey to paint a portrait of victimization and persecution in DOI than to publish the facts and the truth in this case. He outright lied about FBI involvement, and anyone who hasn't read PMPT or ST (or seen a show that contradicts Ramsey's lie) might actually believe him.

 

[snowqueen]

Ugh, I'm so tired of people covering up for John Ramsey in relation to the FBI being there.

The bottom line is, John Ramsey had more than enough time between 12/26/96 and 2000 when DOI was published to find out what the facts are in his daughter's murder investigation, and there's no reason for him not to know the details of his daughter's murder investigation. He had every opportunity to find out if FBI were on the case and in his house in those three years............

Ugh? Is it really that repulsive to discuss facts?

I believe John was writing about how he felt at the time - not how he felt three years later.

 

[Solace]

Ugh? Is it really that repulsive to discuss facts?

I believe John was writing about how he felt at the time - not how he felt three years later.

Snowqueen, I think what NP is saying that the degree of John's distortion of the facts is exhausting. The FBI was there, he knows it and so does everyone else. IMO, he and Patsy got away with this brutal crime because they have done such a great job of distortion. Reading DOI, one has to almost have a large quantity of liquor nearby; it is that hard to take.

This may not be fact to you but it says volumes to me. Anyone who is up to leaving their "just found" murdered daughter within 20 minutes is HIGHLY SUSPECT. Name one mother or father you know, who truly loves their child, who would be able to leave a dead child within 20 minutes of finding her. IMO, one would have to pry them away. The level of pain would be unbearable and they are not going anywhere any time soon. That is a fact. It just is. Not so with the Ramseys.

 

[Ames]

<snipped>
This may not be fact to you but it says volumes to me. Anyone who is up to leaving their "just found" murdered daughter within 20 minutes is HIGHLY SUSPECT. Name one mother or father you know, who truly loves their child, who would be able to leave a dead child within 20 minutes of finding her. IMO, one would have to pry them away. The level of pain would be unbearable and they are not going anywhere any time soon. That is a fact. It just is. Not so with the Ramseys.

Oh, and not to mention that when JB's body was taken to the morgue, NOBODY accompanied "that child". She went alone....not one single family member went with her. I know that the investigators probably told them to leave the house, but....if it were me....after they pried me off of my dead child, and told me to leave....my butt would be plastered on the steps outside, or at least in the car....SOMEWHERE near the house. The fact that they were arranging a trip out of Boulder (and remember PP retrieved their passports....where exactly were they planning on fleeing to?), the fact that they left the house, and that neither one of them accompanied their child's body to the morgue....speaks VOLUMES to me. They killed their daughter....Patsy did it, John helped cover it up......I have known from day one that they were involved.

 

[Eagle1]

By the time I got past the "Timed Out" message using Copy/Paste of a link, I forgot which post to quote, but fwiw, a list of Ramsey lies wouldn't prove anything, and wanting to go to Atlanta so fast, although extremely unusual, could be just a reaction like jerking your hand away from a hot stove burner because it hurts so much. I sympathize about wanting some shortcuts to a solution, but sad reality is there's not going to be any such shortcut.

Sure they acted odd, because of very odd circumstances we may never be able to guess and that nobody's going to just tell us. There's gotta be a lot more to this than meets the eye. A heck of a lot more.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Ugh? Is it really that repulsive to discuss facts?

I believe John was writing about how he felt at the time - not how he felt three years later.

It's not repulsive to discuss the facts, no...but it is repulsive to see people try to excuse JR for lying again and again. And he was lying. What John Ramsey said in his book was the Ramsey version of the facts, the ones designed to inspire pity in the reader and convince them the Rs were persecuted by police, with no basis on truth at all.

I don't care when John Ramsey wrote that falsehood about the FBI...by the time that book went to the publisher, he should have made sure he knew the facts and presented them honestly in his book.

He said the FBI weren't there and police had kept them at bay. That is NOT TRUE. Police not only called the FBI to get them on the case in the first place, they took the FBI over to the Ramsey house themselves. That's not what John Ramsey wants his audience to believe, and he misleads the reader by making false claims, when he had every opportunity and every responsibility to his murdered daughter and his reading audience to make sure he was stating the truth.

DOI is literally full of this kind of rhetoric. What can you expect when the people writing the book are so focused on themselves and the image they present that the death of innocence they refer to in the title is their own, and not that of their poor murdered child? it's nothing but a pity party meant to malign anyone who didn't believe in their innocence, such as police and the media.

Notice how the Rs are specifically angry at the police and media, and don't seem to harbor any anger for the so-called intruder that put them in this position in the first place. Hmmm....

 

[Ames]

It's not repulsive to discuss the facts, no...but it is repulsive to see people try to excuse JR for lying again and again. And he was lying. What John Ramsey said in his book was the Ramsey version of the facts, the ones designed to inspire pity in the reader and convince them the Rs were persecuted by police, with no basis on truth at all.

I don't care when John Ramsey wrote that falsehood about the FBI...by the time that book went to the publisher, he should have made sure he knew the facts and presented them honestly in his book.

He said the FBI weren't there and police had kept them at bay. That is NOT TRUE. Police not only called the FBI to get them on the case in the first place, they took the FBI over to the Ramsey house themselves. That's not what John Ramsey wants his audience to believe, and he misleads the reader by making false claims, when he had every opportunity and every responsibility to his murdered daughter and his reading audience to make sure he was stating the truth.

DOI is literally full of this kind of rhetoric. What can you expect when the people writing the book are so focused on themselves and the image they present that the death of innocence they refer to in the title is their own, and not that of their poor murdered child? it's nothing but a pity party meant to malign anyone who didn't believe in their innocence, such as police and the media.

Notice how the Rs are specifically angry at the police and media, and don't seem to harbor any anger for the so-called intruder that put them in this position in the first place. Hmmm....

I sure noticed it. It is all about THEM! Me, me, me.....I, I, I.....we, we, we.....us, us, us. What ever happened to Jonbenet, Jonbenet, Jonbenet? She should be the main focus. It's should be all about her....thats what really pis*ses me off.

 

[Solace]

By the time I got past the "Timed Out" message using Copy/Paste of a link, I forgot which post to quote, but fwiw, a list of Ramsey lies wouldn't prove anything, and wanting to go to Atlanta so fast, although extremely unusual, could be just a reaction like jerking your hand away from a hot stove burner because it hurts so much. I sympathize about wanting some shortcuts to a solution, but sad reality is there's not going to be any such shortcut.

Sure they acted odd, because of very odd circumstances we may never be able to guess and that nobody's going to just tell us. There's gotta be a lot more to this than meets the eye. A heck of a lot more.

Hi Eagle. Thanks for the response. I was just wondering because this case is fascinating and it is always interesting to hear what someone else would consider a lie by the Ramseys. Thanks, Solace

 

[Solace]

Oh, and not to mention that when JB's body was taken to the morgue, NOBODY accompanied "that child". She went alone....not one single family member went with her. I know that the investigators probably told them to leave the house, but....if it were me....after they pried me off of my dead child, and told me to leave....my butt would be plastered on the steps outside, or at least in the car....SOMEWHERE near the house. The fact that they were arranging a trip out of Boulder (and remember PP retrieved their passports....where exactly were they planning on fleeing to?), the fact that they left the house, and that neither one of them accompanied their child's body to the morgue....speaks VOLUMES to me. They killed their daughter....Patsy did it, John helped cover it up......I have known from day one that they were involved.

Exactly Ames. The thought of it alone is unbearable of someone taking my child to a morgue without me. NO WAY, NADA, NOT HAPPENING. I am going to have to be drugged. The thought of it actually brings a wave of sadness, seriously. So how I would be acting at that point, I would be insane with grief. Insane.

 

[JMO8778]

Exactly Ames. The thought of it alone is unbearable of someone taking my child to a morgue without me. NO WAY, NADA, NOT HAPPENING. I am going to have to be drugged. The thought of it actually brings a wave of sadness, seriously. So how I would be acting at that point, I would be insane with grief. Insane.

In DOI,JR says she was unable to even walk(his excuse for no interviews that day),yet in PMPT,(which I'm reading now),at the Fernies, she is said to have gotten up and personally greeted each guest.So in that case,she likely could have escorted her daughter to the morgue,as well as go for an interview.Can't walk?I'd say get a wheelchair.
If she were truly the parent of a child killed by an unknown intruder,doing both would have been empowering to her,and made her feel less like a victim,and DR BEUF GOOF,above all people,should have known that ! He seemed to be covering for them, IMO.I beleive he knew better.

and...(edited to add)..not to mention the long list of items PP retrieved from the house for them (that basically spelled out the fact they were thinking of leaving the country)...I believe they were capable of doing more than they let on.

 

[snowqueen]

Oh, and not to mention that when JB's body was taken to the morgue, NOBODY accompanied "that child". She went alone....not one single family member went with her. I know that the investigators probably told them to leave the house, but....if it were me....after they pried me off of my dead child, and told me to leave....my butt would be plastered on the steps outside, or at least in the car....SOMEWHERE near the house. The fact that they were arranging a trip out of Boulder (and remember PP retrieved their passports....where exactly were they planning on fleeing to?), the fact that they left the house, and that neither one of them accompanied their child's body to the morgue....speaks VOLUMES to me. They killed their daughter....Patsy did it, John helped cover it up......I have known from day one that they were involved.

Do you believe that family would have been allowed in the morgue and other than for identification purposes, why?

You don't know that Patsy killed JonBenet. You would like to declare it to be so, but you are guessing just like the rest of us.

 

[JMO8778]

Being allowed entrance into the morgue is irrelevant IMO..just the simple act of escorting her body there would be an act of love that I believe most loving parents would have done.
(and would have a hard time *not doing).

 

[Solace]

Do you believe that family would have been allowed in the morgue and other than for identification purposes, why?

You don't know that Patsy killed JonBenet. You would like to declare it to be so, but you are guessing just like the rest of us.

And we don't know that Scott Peterson killed Lacy, but we have MORE (I MEANT MORE, SORRY ABOUT THAT) circumstantial evidence here than convicted Scott Peterson and I am comfortable with Scott residing in San Quentin.

It is not whether they would be allowed in the morgue or not. It is the fact that they were trying to leave town within 20 minutes. The morgue was the last place on John's and Patsy's mind and plans.

You don't find it strange at all that John was on the phone within 20 minutes trying to arrange a flight out? Not at all?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Not trying to arrange a flight out of town within 20 minutes of finding the body is an act of love I think most loving parents would have felt was appropriate. They couldn't wait to put as much distance between them and their murdered child (and pesky police with their questions) as possible.

Solace beat me to it! Admit it, trying to run out of town in the same half hour the body has been found looks pretty bad.

 

[Solace]

In DOI,JR says she was unable to even walk(his excuse for no interviews that day),yet in PMPT,(which I'm reading now),at the Fernies, she is said to have gotten up and personally greeted each guest.So in that case,she likely could have escorted her daughter to the morgue,as well as go for an interview.Can't walk?I'd say get a wheelchair.
If she were truly the parent of a child killed by an unknown intruder,doing both would have been empowering to her,and made her feel less like a victim,and DR BEUF GOOF,above all people,should have known that ! He seemed to be covering for them, IMO.I beleive he knew better.

and...(edited to add)..not to mention the long list of items PP retrieved from the house for them (that basically spelled out the fact they were thinking of leaving the country)...I believe they were capable of doing more than they let on.

I agree JMO. She was greeting people at the Fernies. And she also said "we did not mean for this to happen".

And that is a very important statement, because if my daughter were murdered, I don't think I would be saying "we did not mean for this to happen". And those that feel otherwise are bending over backwards to find a way out for the Ramsies, that is my opinion. Why would she say that? I believe she said it because she was so medicated that she was not thinking and she said things that she normally would not have.

She was able to greet people, but unable to answer questions from the police. Please, this gets more and more bizarre as I think about it and the fact that they were allowed to do this is incredible.

 

[snowqueen]

To answer a couple of questions:

I see absolutely no reason for the Ramseys to have accompanied JonBenet to the morgue. They probably did not know when she was taken since they left (were instructed to leave) the house shortly after she was found.....and she wasn't taken out of the house until around 8:00 p.m.

Why was John trying to make arrangements to fly to Atlanta? To pull his family together? Patsy's parents and sisters, John's children, his brother, many of their friends lived in Atlanta. A flight to Atlanta was no more to them than a short trip in the car is to me.