Simple question...

[Holdontoyourhat]

Really, nowhere do I see quantified the number of markers present on the fingernail DNA evidence. Plus, those claiming the fingernail DNA evidence is irrelevant seem to have just been beating the RDI drum anyway. IOW standard defense tactics: oh they should've used a separate clipper for each finger. Riiight.

How many markers does the fingernail DNA evidence have? 2, 3, or 9? You've got lots of sources but nothing on the actual number of markers, right?

There is fingernail DNA evidence, BPD has it, and you don't know how many markers are there. You don't even know what tissue type of DNA it really is. That fingernail DNA evidence exists is indisputable. That those predisposed to RDI claim its irrelevant is not surprising.

 

[cynic]

Really, nowhere do I see quantified the number of markers present on the fingernail DNA evidence. Plus, those claiming the fingernail DNA evidence is irrelevant seem to have just been beating the RDI drum anyway. IOW standard defense tactics: oh they should've used a separate clipper for each finger. Riiight.

How many markers does the fingernail DNA evidence have? 2, 3, or 9? You've got lots of sources but nothing on the actual number of markers, right?

There is fingernail DNA evidence, BPD has it, and you don't know how many markers are there. You don't even know what tissue type of DNA it really is. That fingernail DNA evidence exists is indisputable. That those predisposed to RDI claim its irrelevant is not surprising.

You cannot be serious.
Read this carefully:
"When Meyer clipped the nails of each finger, no blood or tissue was found that would indicate a struggle. He used the same clippers for all the fingers, although doing so created an issue of cross-contamination. For optimal DNA purposes, separate and sterile clippers should have been used for each finger. Furthermore, we later learned that the coroner's office sometimes used the same clippers on different autopsy subjects."
Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation"
Page 41


Here's what Pam Paugh said on WROW 12/30/98 Question: Does the DNA under those fingernails actually match the DNA that was found in the panties? Pam: "Well, from what I know, the DNA under the fingernails, when it was collected, and ummm, I saw JonBenet's body (obviously) -- her fingernails had been removed fairly deeply into the nail bed ummm I would say about, oh on a child about an eighth of an inch from what we would call the half moon... ummm.. and later to find out though that when the fingernails were being removed the instruments that were used were not clean and nor were they taken out of a sealed sanitized package. They actually used previously used clippers and files and so forth so it was not known if THEY contaminated them or what--- so that had to be put aside as not useable.
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/11111998Story-HistoryDaveLucasShow(Ramsey).htm


Even Lin Wood who was probably seeing double at the time said that the fingernail DNA contained 6 markers. Rest assured that if the king of Ramsey spin would only have the nerve to go as high as 6 then certainly there would be no more than that and every likelihood that it was far fewer.
As I’ve said before, this would be subject to a humiliating attack in court.
As I’ve said before, you stand alone in your faith.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You'll hopefully pardon me for not bowing every time ST is quoted. IOW dont bother with bold underlined font for ST quotes. This is someone who gave up his spot in the persuit of justice for JBR and moved on to write a book about it that implicated people who the DA now says are innocent. This is a position that now contrasts with mass media coverage on the case.

At least we've established that you don't know how many markers the fingernail DNA evidence has, or what tissue it came from. And thats a lot to not know.

The fingernail DNA evidence has a finite number of markers and comes from a specific type of cell. Since neither one of us knows the number of markers or the type of cell, argument seems futile. The only inarguable point seems to be that fingernail DNA does exist.

 

[cynic]

You'll hopefully pardon me for not bowing every time ST is quoted. IOW dont bother with bold underlined font for ST quotes. This is someone who gave up his spot in the persuit of justice for JBR and moved on to write a book about it that implicated people who the DA now says are innocent. This is a position that now contrasts with mass media coverage on the case.

At least we've established that you don't know how many markers the fingernail DNA evidence has, or what tissue it came from. And thats a lot to not know.

The fingernail DNA evidence has a finite number of markers and comes from a specific type of cell. Since neither one of us knows the number of markers or the type of cell, argument seems futile. The only inarguable point seems to be that fingernail DNA does exist.

I'm impressed that you do not even believe the RST leader, Lin Wood.

 

[cynic]

You'll hopefully pardon me for not bowing every time ST is quoted. IOW dont bother with bold underlined font for ST quotes. This is someone who gave up his spot in the persuit of justice for JBR and moved on to write a book about it that implicated people who the DA now says are innocent. This is a position that now contrasts with mass media coverage on the case.

According to you at least the following people are either lying or mistaken regarding the fingernail DNA. But we should believe you because you have the truth. Maybe if you let us have a swig of your Kool-Aid we might see it from your perspective.

Pam Paugh
Steve Thomas
Bob Grant, a former Adams County DA
Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky
Bill Wise, former first assistant with the Boulder County District Attorney's Office

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

According to you at least the following people are either lying or mistaken regarding the fingernail DNA. But we should believe you because you have the truth. Maybe if you let us have a swig of your Kool-Aid we might see it from your perspective.

Pam Paugh
Steve Thomas
Bob Grant, a former Adams County DA
Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky
Bill Wise, former first assistant with the Boulder County District Attorney's Office

Did any of these people name the number of markers or the type of tissue of the fingernail DNA evidence that BPD has?

Did any of these people state that BPD never actually used this DNA to compare to people in order to find an innocent explanation for its presence underneath her fingernails?

 

[DeeDee249]

Even if complete, I doubt the fingernail DNA would ever have been used in court once the coroner's sloppy methods were known. There would simply be no way to know if the foreign DNA belonged to a previous decedent who Mayer had autopsied. DNA can last an extremely long time if left in place. The clippers would have to be sterilized to remove it.

 

[cynic]

Pam Paugh:
Here's what Pam Paugh said on WROW 12/30/98 Question: Does the DNA under those fingernails actually match the DNA that was found in the panties? Pam: "Well, from what I know, the DNA under the fingernails, when it was collected, and ummm, I saw JonBenet's body (obviously) -- her fingernails had been removed fairly deeply into the nail bed ummm I would say about, oh on a child about an eighth of an inch from what we would call the half moon... ummm.. and later to find out though that when the fingernails were being removed the instruments that were used were not clean and nor were they taken out of a sealed sanitized package. They actually used previously used clippers and files and so forth so it was not known if THEY contaminated them or what--- so that had to be put aside as not useable.
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/11111998Story-HistoryDaveLucasShow(Ramsey).htm

Steve Thomas:
"When Meyer clipped the nails of each finger, no blood or tissue was found that would indicate a struggle. He used the same clippers for all the fingers, although doing so created an issue of cross-contamination. For optimal DNA purposes, separate and sterile clippers should have been used for each finger. Furthermore, we later learned that the coroner's office sometimes used the same clippers on different autopsy subjects."
Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation"
Page 41

Bob Grant:
Bob Grant, a former Adams County DA who helped investigate JonBenet’s death….
There were also DNA traces found under the child’s fingernails, but they were degraded and tests were inconclusive, Grant said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14441778/

Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky:
To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, the DNA in her underwear, what type of DNA was it? What type of DNA was under her fingernails?
KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, we don`t really know too much about the DNA under her fingernails because it was degraded, http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0608/23/ng.01.html

More from Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky:

COOPER: The DNA, apparently, that exists, a -- a spot of blood from her underwear. There was also DNA underneath the fingernails. But it wasn't conclusive.
KOBILINSKY: Well, it was, apparently, degraded. And, therefore, it...
COOPER: What does that mean exactly, degraded?
KOBILINSKY: Well, it means that the DNA was in very small quantity. And it also means that the DNA was fragmented.
That could happen for a number of reasons. But the main point is, they weren't able to -- to get any information from that particular DNA. And, similarly, there was one -- one of the two stains on the panties was also of low quality, or degraded, and, therefore, really didn't provide us with important information.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0608/24/acd.01.html

Bill Wise:
Bill Wise, former first assistant with the Boulder County District Attorney's Office, said that although DNA "absolutely could be one of the biggest things in the case," it could also be nothing.
Some of the DNA taken from the 6-year-old pageant queen's fingernails and underwear was "degraded," Wise said. He said the tool used to take samples wasn't clean.
"It had foreign DNA on it," he said.
The other "minuscule" sample, which is probably blood, was mixed with JonBenet's DNA, he said. That leaves investigators with the daunting task of trying to match a partial DNA strand with a sample from John Karr.
"The amount of DNA is small enough that it could exclude someone. But it could not go so far for the inclusion," Wise said.
http://www.dailycamera.com/archivesearch/ci_13061689

Alex Hunter:
KING: Well, has it cleared some people? Some people who might have been on a list of suspects, has the DNA thrown them out as suspects?
HUNTER: No, it's other things that really threw them out.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/30/lkl.00.html

Other media sources:

Wood also pointed out that unidentified DNA was also recovered from beneath JonBenet's fingernails on both hands. But investigators have long said that contamination problems render those samples of little value.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2002/nov/19/dna-may-not-help-ramsey-inquiry/

What was found in the investigation
DNA evidence from the JonBenet Ramsey murder:
• DNA from under her fingernails, poor quality.
• Foreign male DNA recovered from a spot of her blood in her panties, of only moderate quality.
• Foreign male DNA recovered from another spot of her blood in her underwear, with 10 genetic markers and considered of significant value.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4940501,00.html

Below is a summary of how the DNA been described in the above quotations:

Contaminated.
Not useable.
Degraded.
Of little value.
Poor quality.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Contaminated.
Not useable.
Degraded.
Of little value.
Poor quality.

JBR fingernail DNA evidence

Contaminated: DNA is DNA. What does contaminated mean? Mixed with other DNA? Coffee spilled on the slides?

Not useable: Media reports say this DNA was in fact used by BPD to compare with JBR's playmates. Not useable seems to be an erroneous statement because it conflicts with media reports that were specific. Good thing that it wasn't a DNA expert who said that.

Degraded: What does degraded mean? How many markers?

Of little value: To RDI enthusiasts, I'll bet. Lets hear from BPD detectives.

Poor quality: What does poor quality mean? Degraded? Contaminated? Isn't 'poor quality' redundant and vague? How many markers?

Are any of these characterizations from a DNA expert or from BPD detectives? No?

 

[cynic]

Contaminated: DNA is DNA. What does contaminated mean? Mixed with other DNA? Coffee spilled on the slides?

…Previously used clippers
…same clippers on different autopsy subjects
…Bill Wise, former first assistant with the Boulder County District Attorney's Office, said that although DNA "absolutely could be one of the biggest things in the case," it could also be nothing.
Some of the DNA taken from the 6-year-old pageant queen's fingernails and underwear was "degraded," Wise said. He said the tool used to take samples wasn't clean.

Not useable: Media reports say this DNA was in fact used by BPD to compare with JBR's playmates. Not useable seems to be an erroneous statement because it conflicts with media reports that were specific. Good thing that it wasn't a DNA expert who said that.

If they did, it would have been before the issues of contamination came to light.

Degraded: What does degraded mean? How many markers?

All reports of markers range from 2 - 6

Of little value: To RDI enthusiasts, I'll bet. Lets hear from BPD detectives.

Contamination renders it that way, sorry.

Poor quality: What does poor quality mean? Degraded? Contaminated? Isn't 'poor quality' redundant and vague? How many markers?

That was used in contrast with the other DNA
• DNA from under her fingernails, poor quality.
• Foreign male DNA recovered from a spot of her blood in her panties, of only moderate quality.
• Foreign male DNA recovered from another spot of her blood in her underwear, with 10 genetic markers and considered of significant value.
Do the math.

Are any of these characterizations from a DNA expert or from BPD detectives? No?

Yes.
… Lawrence Kobilinsky is a DNA expert
… Steve Thomas – BPD
… Bob Grant, a former Adams County DA who helped investigate JonBenet’s death
… Bill Wise, former first assistant with the Boulder County District Attorney's Office

 

[DeeDee249]

Media reports are themselves of little value- just look at how many times they are wrong.
I have never seen where any of JB's playmates were tested for anything regarding this crime. I can't imagine a parent allowing it. How would you explain that to a first-grader? "The Police want to see if any of your cells are under your dead friend's fingernails?"
I think you know what contaminated means- in this case it means unsterile. We have gone over the clippers a million times. If the coroner used those clippers on every finger, and especially if he used them on other corpses, and did not sterilize them between autopsies-NOTHING found under her nails is of any value to the case.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The unusable, contaminated, degraded, low quality (LOL make up your mind, RDI) DNA has been referred to by CNN and NEWSWEEK as fingernail DNA evidence nontheless.

There is still the potential that this fingernail DNA evidence matches JBR's assailant. There is no way RDI can rule out that possibility. if the DNA holds six markers then it could be a factor in a trial.

I also find it ridiculous that RDI would consider two markers to even be a possibility for the fingernail DNA, considering it was found on both hands.

 

[cynic]

The unusable, contaminated, degraded, low quality (LOL make up your mind, RDI)

Unusable in court
Contaminated through collection by a non-sterile instrument
Degraded and “low quality" are synonymous.

DNA has been referred to by CNN and NEWSWEEK as fingernail DNA evidence nontheless.

And who exactly are the sources that they used – any DNA experts? Or was it an “unnamed” source?

There is still the potential that this fingernail DNA evidence matches JBR's assailant. There is no way RDI can rule out that possibility.

1. You could never prove that in court because there are too few markers
2. The DNA could be from the previous autopsy performed by Meyer.

if the DNA holds six markers then it could be a factor in a trial.

No, that is still far too few.

I also find it ridiculous that RDI would consider two markers to even be a possibility for the fingernail DNA, considering it was found on both hands.

Degradation, coupled with small sample size can lead to nothing showing up in a worst case scenario.

You must have this dream where you see massive chunks of flesh from the SFF leader under JBR’s fingernails yielding CODIS 13 marker DNA, but you have to learn to separate dreams from reality.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You must have this dream where you see massive chunks of flesh from the SFF leader under JBR’s fingernails yielding CODIS 13 marker DNA, but you have to learn to separate dreams from reality.

After all the typing I've put you thru in your attempts to show your arguments, I suppose I had that coming.

But there is a flaw in your logic.

1. You could never prove that in court because there are too few markers

You don't know if its too few markers because you don't even know how many markers they have. You repeatedly claim you know when you really don't. Your source is non-authoritative as to the number of markers. Please don't use Pam Paugh or Steve "RDI or Bust" Thomas as the authority on DNA useability, OK because it lowers your esteem.

JBR could be drowning in DNA and it would still be contaminated, unusable, poor quality, degraded, of little value, low count, factory worker, lab worker, previous decedent, Whites bathroom user, JR and PR mixed DNA no matter what (lol--did I leave any out?). It would be good for RDI right now to prove just one of the 6 separate DNA specimens actually belonged to any one of RDI's hallucinations.

2. The DNA could be from the previous autopsy performed by Meyer.

If the nine markers contained in the fingernail DNA evidence matches a known rapist or kidnapper who is alive, then the previous autopsy 'claim' would be ruled out, correct?

 

[BBB167893]

According to you at least the following people are either lying or mistaken regarding the fingernail DNA. But we should believe you because you have the truth. Maybe if you let us have a swig of your Kool-Aid we might see it from your perspective.

LOL That was good.

 

[cynic]

You don't know if its too few markers because you don't even know how many markers they have. You repeatedly claim you know when you really don't. Your source is non-authoritative as to the number of markers. Please don't use Pam Paugh or Steve "RDI or Bust" Thomas as the authority on DNA useability, OK because it lowers your esteem.

Well, it’s true I have lowered my esteem, but not by quoting Steve Thomas, but rather by quoting Lin “IDI or Bust” Wood. His claim of 6 markers is the highest number anyone has ever suggested.
If that is true, and I seriously doubt it, that still would not cut it in court.
What makes this a moot point, however, is the contamination issue.
I will say that I don’t think the fingernail DNA is of no use – its entertainment value in court would be truly priceless.

JBR could be drowning in DNA and it would still be contaminated, unusable…

DNA from blood or semen offers little opportunity for innocent explanations, but we have none of that here.

If the nine markers contained in the fingernail DNA evidence matches a known rapist or kidnapper who is alive, then the previous autopsy 'claim' would be ruled out, correct?

Nine markers??? Nice try. (Remember what I said earlier about dreams and reality, pinch yourself if you have to.)
The fingernail DNA is not being used to match anyone. The only DNA being used for inclusion and exclusion is the 9 ½ marker DNA from one of two bloodstains in JBR’s panties that was entered into the CODIS database.
2- 6 markers is not enough for inclusion, so it would not rule out the possibility of the DNA being from a previous autopsy. Furthermore, it has been said that the fingernail DNA has never matched the panty DNA in the first place, which would increase the probability that it was indeed the result of contamination.
“The DNA evidence has long been the subject of controversy. The DNA analyzed from her underwear in 1999 could not be matched to previously analyzed but badly degraded DNA found under JonBenet's fingernails two years earlier.”
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jul/10/now-add-dna-to-evidence-of-an-intruder/

Time to move on HOTYH, perhaps we can discuss other ancient, and irrelevant “evidence” such as the second bloodstain that no one talks about.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Time to move on HOTYH, perhaps we can discuss other ancient, and irrelevant “evidence” such as the second bloodstain that no one talks about.

Fingernail DNA evidence: irrelevant, poor quality low count badly degraded DNA from someone else like another decedent (make up your mind, which is it?)

DNA evidence from four (4) other locations on JBR: irrelevant to the case, innocent transfer from somebody not involved.

Ransom note contents: irrelevant, as no ransom was collected and JBR was in the basement. SFF is just an absurd idea.

Garrote: irrelevant as to cause of death. She hit her head and it was used to make it look like a criminal did this.

Misspellings: irrelevant, as PR would fake her spelling. Wouldn't you if your life depended on it?

I was just curious, how many 'irrelevants' RDI gets before it loses credibility as an excuse? Has RDI used them all up yet or are there more? Let me guess: as many as are needed, right?

 

[cynic]

Fingernail DNA evidence: irrelevant, poor quality low count badly degraded DNA from someone else like another decedent (make up your mind, which is it?)

All of the above.

DNA evidence from four (4) other locations on JBR: irrelevant to the case, innocent transfer from somebody not involved.

[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91175"]...and perhaps an innocent explanation... - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame] and [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90999"]DNA Revisited - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Ransom note contents: irrelevant, as no ransom was collected and JBR was in the basement. SFF is just an absurd idea.

SFF is just an absurd idea. Finally, the admission we’ve all been waiting for. Now there is officially no one on planet Earth that believes that.

Garrote: irrelevant as to cause of death. She hit her head and it was used to make it look like a criminal did this.

Not irrelevant, part of the COD, but also staging.
“The ligatures, they said, indicated staging rather than control, and the garrote was used from behind so the killer could avoid eye contact, typical of someone who cares for the victim. They had the gut feeling that "no one intended to kill this child." - CASKU

Misspellings: irrelevant, as PR would fake her spelling. Wouldn't you if your life depended on it?

No, I’m sure most people would confess and do the time in prison, wouldn’t you?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

SFF is just an absurd idea. Finally, the admission we’ve all been waiting for. Now there is officially no one on planet Earth that believes that.

It seems you're confusing a confession with a patronization.

And your post largely proceeds arrogantly as if the case were somehow solved. Just keep in mind that mass media is IDI for some reason. Remember the 'exhoneration by DNA' headlines that have not been rebutted by anyone except you? While everybody else on the planet is 'DNA cleared the R's' you're clinging to 'PR wrote the note'...

 

[voynich]

“The ligatures, they said, indicated staging rather than control, and the garrote was used from behind so the killer could avoid eye contact, typical of someone who cares for the victim. They had the gut feeling that "no one intended to kill this child." - CASKU

gut feeling = wishful thinking

How are most murders by strangulation via garrote done, in front of the victum or behind and what are %?

strangulation from behind is equally typical of serial killers who do not care for their victims, i.e BTK.