Simple question...

[BBB167893]

RDI's only explanation of 'holiday stress' doesn't even stick to the wall for more than a minute.

Why not? (I happen to think it was a lot more than just that. I only ask because I want to know.)

 

[Tadpole12]

Heya Hotyh,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/03/quinn-gray-faked-kidnappi_n_343591.html

rn: http://www.news4jax.com/download/2009/1027/21433270.pdf

Are you familiar wuth the works of Quinn Gray?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

True.



Holiday stress isn't my explanation. No reason to assume all RDIs think the same way. The DNA doesn't point to an intruder doing the killing - no matter what the DA says. It's simply non-Ramsey male DNA. We don't know how it got there, or why it's there. We don't know who it belongs to. Most likely we never will.

The DNA DOES point to an intruder. Thats the whole idea behind the exhoneration letter. I suggest re-reading it. Of course it requires some logic and the ability to draw conclusions...


Oh, I thought it was based on a SFF's dislike of the USA. Or based on an actual kidnapping attempt which then inexplicably "went wrong". Pretty convenient to forget about the other "motives" and just focus on the fat cat angle.

Laughable. No way would JR have been sitting there with his money waiting for a ransom call. I assume that's what you were getting at.

OK laughable is any person who would actually believe that someone who lived in the same house as a child murder victim would put pen to paper for 10 words. Oh wait 100 words. Oh wait 350 words. Wow. 1500 characters. U gotta be kiddin me! Would you do it? Tell the truth now. OF COURSE NOT.

A real kidnapper would have known very well that the body would be found. Had there actually been an intruder, he'd have scratched his head in disbelief when he found out the BPD, JR, and FW all failed to find the body when they were down in the basement that morning, and that it would take 7 hours for JR to go back down and discover the body.

The idea here is that the ransom amount was rhetorical. No ransom was ever intended to be taken. This is evident because the ransom amount was too low for the circumstances.

Had LA not asked JR to search the house again, then the presumption would've been that a kidnap for ransom was in progress. JR would've left and returned with the money. He and LE would monitor the phone. This is pretty standard stuff, so I really don't get why you would doubt it. However, there would be eventually be a signal that something was wrong at the house. There is really no other way to look at this.

Contrary to what you posted, I don't believe that JBR was in plain sight in the basement.

Its worth noting that JBR is the exact antithesis of Tiny Tim.

 

[Chrishope]

The idea here is that the ransom amount was rhetorical. No ransom was ever intended to be taken. This is evident because the ransom amount was too low for the circumstances.

Had LA not asked JR to search the house again, then the presumption would've been that a kidnap for ransom was in progress. JR would've left and returned with the money. He and LE would monitor the phone. This is pretty standard stuff, so I really don't get why you would doubt it. However, there would be eventually be a signal that something was wrong at the house. There is really no other way to look at this.

Contrary to what you posted, I don't believe that JBR was in plain sight in the basement.

Its worth noting that JBR is the exact antithesis of Tiny Tim.

I see what you're getting at now. We're back to the rhetorical ransom amount.

Yes, I have to agree, it could have been several more hours (days, weeks, months, years, decades? ) before JBR's body was found if LA hadn't sent John searching. No telling how long it would have been before BPD decided to have another look around.

Of course, there would never have been a ransom call.

Nothing in my previous post was meant to imply that JBR was in plain sight - just that a competent search by the police and/or JR & FW should have turned up the body shortly after 6am. It's worth noting that JR finds JBR within moments of going down the basement at 1pm. She couldn't possibly have been very hard to find since he found her so quickly on his second search attempt.

Given that the intruder couldn't have banked on multiple incompetence in searching the house, there could have been no plot to have JR sitting with the ransom money hour after hour waiting for a call that would never come. In short, a rhetorical ransom demand makes no sense.

Likewise, the SFF part makes no sense in the context of an envious killer.
Well, for that matter, SFF makes no sense in any context, but why would an intruder write extraneous stuff that doesn't even jibe with his envy motive?

Why would the R's have written the War and Peace of RNs? Because they had to spin a story to explain away what happened in the house the night before.

The kidnapping angle explains why the child is gone, and why no search of the house has been made.

Then there is the 118K. If an intruder wrote the RN, the 118k marks him as one of the few who knew of JR's bonus. An intruder wouldn't want the police becoming suspicious of him. OTOH, if the Rs wrote the RN, the 118k points police at those who knew the amount of JR's bonus. It benefits the Rs to mention 118k, it doesn't benefit an intruder.

It makes more sense for the Rs to write War and Peace than for an intruder. They need to throw out several motives, and send the police off in several directions.

The DNA. It creates reasonable doubt, but it does not exonerate the Rs. I don't need to read the letter again, it's simply a matter of logic. The presence of foreign DNA doesn't automatically mean the killer is an intruder. Of course, you know this.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I see what you're getting at now. We're back to the rhetorical ransom amount.

Yes, I have to agree, it could have been several more hours (days, weeks, months, years, decades? ) before JBR's body was found if LA hadn't sent John searching. No telling how long it would have been before BPD decided to have another look around.

I don't think you get it.

Of course, there would never have been a ransom call.

You and I only have ideas and claims. We don't really know if a phone call would've come or not. Remember that the RN said 'tomorrow' and that would've been Dec 27. By then, the R's obviously had violated the terms of the ransom note.

Nothing in my previous post was meant to imply that JBR was in plain sight - just that a competent search by the police and/or JR & FW should have turned up the body shortly after 6am. It's worth noting that JR finds JBR within moments of going down the basement at 1pm. She couldn't possibly have been very hard to find since he found her so quickly on his second search attempt.

A 'competent search' of the house by LE holding a ransom note would actually be incompetent. If I were the parent I would ask LE kindly to get out on the streets and find my daughter. Why would LE waste time looking underneath beds when holding that ransom note? Its easy for you to analyze a search of the house now, knowing JBR was HIDDEN in the basement.

Given that the intruder couldn't have banked on multiple incompetence in searching the house, there could have been no plot to have JR sitting with the ransom money hour after hour waiting for a call that would never come. In short, a rhetorical ransom demand makes no sense.

I'm not sure you understand what rhetorical means. It means the ransom demand was made by someone not expecting any money. The motive for that would be to have JR and LE getting money and sitting by the phone (which IS what they were doing, BTW) instead of searching the house. The rhetorical ransom means there was an ulterior motive for the crime that we don't yet even know 12 years later.



Likewise, the SFF part makes no sense in the context of an envious killer.
Well, for that matter, SFF makes no sense in any context, but why would an intruder write extraneous stuff that doesn't even jibe with his envy motive?

The ransom note expressed envy throughout. Do you really believe that nobody envies this country? C'mon.

Why would the R's have written the War and Peace of RNs? Because they had to spin a story to explain away what happened in the house the night before.

You forgot the laughable part, that is anyone who thinks someone in the house would actually put pen to paper and write 10 words let alone 350 words. You wouldn't do it, remember?

The kidnapping angle explains why the child is gone, and why no search of the house has been made.

The kidnapping angle provides a diversion: Police are looking for a 6 year old blonde girl when really she's still in the house.

Then there is the 118K. If an intruder wrote the RN, the 118k marks him as one of the few who knew of JR's bonus. An intruder wouldn't want the police becoming suspicious of him. OTOH, if the Rs wrote the RN, the 118k points police at those who knew the amount of JR's bonus. It benefits the Rs to mention 118k, it doesn't benefit an intruder.

You'd have to know that info wasn't laying around the house somewhere, for intruders to simply read. You don't know it wasn't.

It makes more sense for the Rs to write War and Peace than for an intruder. They need to throw out several motives, and send the police off in several directions.

It makes NO sense for anyone who lives in the same house to put pen to paper even for a few words let alone 1500 characters. Think about that for a second and you know its true. The ransom note wasn't necessary to show JBR was a victim of sexual assault by intruder. There was enough evidence for that in the basement. That the ransom note was 'needed to tell a story or explain JBR in the basement' is a RDI myth. It doesn't really exist.

The DNA. It creates reasonable doubt, but it does not exonerate the Rs. I don't need to read the letter again, it's simply a matter of logic. The presence of foreign DNA doesn't automatically mean the killer is an intruder. Of course, you know this.

It means the owner of the DNA victimized JBR the night she was murdered. Thats what it means.

I don't think RDI is capable of seeing things from IDI perspective.

 

[Chrishope]

HOTYH

I get what you mean by rhetorical demand. What you aren't getting is that no intruder, even one who's insane, could reasonably have expected the body to go undiscovered until time for the ransom call - even if "tomorrow" meant the 26th.

Doing a search would be SOP. Of course, a competent search would be better than a cursory one. A truly competent police force might have brought in a K-9 unit. Had she been abducted by a neighbor her scent could have been followed to the neighbor. Had she been taken away by car, the dog could have followed the scent to where the car had been. That would at least tell police she was taken away by car. Of course, in reality, had a K-9 unit been brought in, the dog would have been scratching at the basement door.

No way was the "intruder" expecting JR to sit waiting for a call. He could not have counted on such incompetence in searching for the girl.

Despite your notion that the Rs should be taken at face value, the cops got hinky right from the start.

Your scenario of a rhetorical demand simply doesn't make sense.

 

[Jane Osa]

I'll agree the amount was 'rhetorical' because the person writing knew no ransom would be collected because no kidnapping would take place because their daughter was dead.

The amount specified was used to deflect suspicion - assuming someone else could know John's bonus amount outside the family.

Ramsey's big mistake was lying when it wasn't necessary. Either that or every lie is somewhat connected to what really happened. The more lies, the more to cover. Why not say she's awake? Why not say, yes she had pineapple? Or that Burke was awake at time of 911 call? I would expect John to be smart enough to know that - if it isn't necessary - don't lie...tell the truth....but they lied beginning to end about all minor details....that, to me, aside from everything brands them with guilt.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

HOTYH

I get what you mean by rhetorical demand. What you aren't getting is that no intruder, even one who's insane, could reasonably have expected the body to go undiscovered until time for the ransom call - even if "tomorrow" meant the 26th.

Doing a search would be SOP. Of course, a competent search would be better than a cursory one. A truly competent police force might have brought in a K-9 unit. Had she been abducted by a neighbor her scent could have been followed to the neighbor. Had she been taken away by car, the dog could have followed the scent to where the car had been. That would at least tell police she was taken away by car. Of course, in reality, had a K-9 unit been brought in, the dog would have been scratching at the basement door.

I can't argue with this.

No way was the "intruder" expecting JR to sit waiting for a call. He could not have counted on such incompetence in searching for the girl.

All I'm saying is that if LA didn't ask JR to search the house, JBR would've been found under less desirable circumstances. JR would have the money, be waiting for a phone call, and then at some point realize something was very wrong.

Despite your notion that the Rs should be taken at face value, the cops got hinky right from the start.

Your scenario of a rhetorical demand simply doesn't make sense.

Thats funny you saying a rhetorical ransom demand doesn't make sense, since thats been RDI's whole argument all along. We (RDI and IDI) agree the ransom demand was rhetorical but for different reasons. Rhetorical simply means that somebody threw 118,000 on the ransom note without really expecting to get the money.

 

[Jane Osa]

HoldOn.. I admit I am flummoxed - and I haven't been here a lot lately. But, why, again do you think it is rhetorical? What was the socialist faction jealous of capitalism going to do with her? Maybe I remember you thinking it was an empty number - but, I can't recall what you thought they'd do with JonBenet? Or is your idea that killing her was the plan & they just wanted to make the Ramseys suffer?

Seriously, all ribbing aside - is there somewhere here I can revisit your theory?....thanks.

 

[Ames]

HoldOn.. I admit I am flummoxed - and I haven't been here a lot lately. But, why, again do you think it is rhetorical? What was the socialist faction jealous of capitalism going to do with her? Maybe I remember you thinking it was an empty number - but, I can't recall what you thought they'd do with JonBenet? Or is your idea that killing her was the plan & they just wanted to make the Ramseys suffer?

Seriously, all ribbing aside - is there somewhere here I can revisit your theory?....thanks.

Please excuse me if I ramble...I just took a Klonopin. They make me feel weird. I can explain Holdon's theory to you. He actually believes that a group belonging to a small foreign faction came into the Ramsey's home, indenting to kidnap her. They knew of John through some magazine. They were foreign, and liked JB's blonde hair and blue eyes. you see...they wanted to kidnap her and take her over to another country...and hold her there, until she is of marrying age. Well, they decided that JB may just get hungry on that long trip...TO ANOTHER COUNTRY, so they fed her some pineapple (that was so nice of them to think of her and her hunger (rolling eyes). Instead of taking her out the front door, which was alot closer than going down in the maze the Ramsey's called a basement....they decided to do just that. Take her down to the basement, and have a little "fun" with her. Well, as that was going on, they noticed that ....GASP! JB's hair was actually NOT blonde after all, it had been bleached. And her blue eyes...well that was actually contacts that she used for her pageants, her eyes were actually green. Well, this just wouldn't do for those SFF dudes. So, after she screamed...intead of jumping out the window right there and then...they took the time to bash her in the head and fashion a garotte. AND THEN...they took off out of there and got the heck out of dodge. Never to be seen or heard from again. This is is originally theory, but...I believe that he has changed it quite a few times, not sure what his theory is now.

 

[Jane Osa]

Thanks, Ames - I forgot about the keeping her to marry her off, etc. It's all coming back.....

And the pineapple, to keep her energy up. Oh, no! Don't let me go there...I get this peculiar mix of emotions....outrage and amusement which results in inappropriate jokes & giddiness.

We'll see if he gets back to me with the latest, though.

Thanks.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Thanks, Ames - I forgot about the keeping her to marry her off, etc. It's all coming back.....

And the pineapple, to keep her energy up. Oh, no! Don't let me go there...I get this peculiar mix of emotions....outrage and amusement which results in inappropriate jokes & giddiness.

We'll see if he gets back to me with the latest, though.

Thanks.

Thats easy.

Some socialist with a cold war grudge against this country tries to kidnap JR's daughter on Christmas Night. The ransom note was supposed to keep JR busy getting money and waiting for a phone call, while JBR is moved out of town by car. Had JBR been kidnapped as planned, she could've been a pawn in a much bigger game. A prize captive blond hair blue eyed American girl.

If anything went wrong, JBR would be killed quickly. JBR screamed and then there was no longer the need for the blanket or the wrist ligature or that bowl of pineapple (if it really exists) that would be used to move her by car.

The RN author has no originality of his own and therefore uses western movie and book fiction as a resource for expressions that he uses to communicate his ideolgies and beliefs.

His ideology is against personal wealth, against this country's political system, and has contempt for those far away who show themselves off while other people closer to him are sick or starving.

 

[BBB167893]

OK laughable is any person who would actually believe that someone who lived in the same house as a child murder victim would put pen to paper for 10 words. Oh wait 100 words. Oh wait 350 words. Wow. 1500 characters. U gotta be kiddin me! Would you do it? Tell the truth now. OF COURSE NOT.

Do we HAVE to go over all that AGAIN?

Why would the R's have written the War and Peace of RNs? Because they had to spin a story to explain away what happened in the house the night before.

Then there is the 118K. If an intruder wrote the RN, the 118k marks him as one of the few who knew of JR's bonus. An intruder wouldn't want the police becoming suspicious of him. OTOH, if the Rs wrote the RN, the 118k points police at those who knew the amount of JR's bonus. It benefits the Rs to mention 118k, it doesn't benefit an intruder.

It makes more sense for the Rs to write War and Peace than for an intruder. They need to throw out several motives, and send the police off in several directions.

:clap: :clap:

I don't think RDI is capable of seeing things from IDI perspective.

AHEM! Let us not forget where I started out. Moreover, you're not exactly well-known for walking in our shoes, HOTYH. You should try it sometime.

The amount specified was used to deflect suspicion - assuming someone else could know John's bonus amount outside the family.

Beautifully summed up, Jane Osa. What our friend doesn't seem to understand is that, even if JR's bonus information WAS available to be read inside the house, it makes no sense for someone outside of their circle to mention it. It DOES make sense, however, to use it as a way to cast suspicion on someone inside that circle who might know that information. Perhaps a revisit of "A Masterpiece of Misdirection" is in order?

 

[DeeDee249]

I always felt the Rs were going to throw the blame and see where it stuck. To that end, the RN mentioned JR's bonus because he had in mind to throw some blame towards Merrick, who had left Access Graphics in less than pleasant circumstances. By using an odd amount linked to JR's company, they had an array of possible "suspects" available.
Patsy piped up with housekeeper LHP right at the start. SHE was a perfect target. She was in financial stress, knew the family and house intimately, and did not have the educational, financial resources to fight it off. Unfortunately for Patsy, there was not a shred of forensic evidence linking LHP to the body or the staging. Ditto for Santa Bill (another favorite target of the RST). LHP readily submitted sampled of handwriting, hair, saliva. No match. Ditto Santa Bill. No match. As seemingly creepy as it was, the novel written by Mrs. Santa (with its similarities to the case) would not be enough to shine the light on them in the absence of any forensic evidence. After all, Patsy may very well have been familiar with Janet McReynold's book.

 

[Sophie]

Some remarkable posts on this thread.

I always thought that the Ramseys didn't expect anyone they threw under the bus to end up being prosecuted but that, investigating these leads would deflect police attention from them, gain time, and perhaps create reasonable doubt in the event that they were ever prosecuted.

To that extent, I think the RN may well have been an attempt to make LHP look guilty. She might possibly have seen paperwork about the bonus and was known to be in straitened financial circumstances so might be believed to harbour resentments about the rich and to think that 118k was a large sum of money. The faux spelling mistakes may also have pointed to this. Linda was also known to be frightened that someone would abduct JBR given the way Patsy would let her roam the neighbourhood. So the Ramseys could (and in fact did in DoI) suggest something sinister lay in this warning.

 

[BBB167893]

I always thought that the Ramseys didn't expect anyone they threw under the bus to end up being prosecuted but that, investigating these leads would deflect police attention from them, gain time, and perhaps create reasonable doubt in the event that they were ever prosecuted.

To that extent, I think the RN may well have been an attempt to make LHP look guilty. She might possibly have seen paperwork about the bonus and was known to be in straitened financial circumstances so might be believed to harbour resentments about the rich and to think that 118k was a large sum of money. The faux spelling mistakes may also have pointed to this. Linda was also known to be frightened that someone would abduct JBR given the way Patsy would let her roam the neighbourhood. So the Ramseys could (and in fact did in DoI) suggest something sinister lay in this warning.

I can't really add anything to that. Or what DeeDee said.

 

[Tadpole12]

Heya Hotyh,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/03/quinn-gray-faked-kidnappi_n_343591.html

rn: http://www.news4jax.com/download/2009/1027/21433270.pdf

Are you familiar wuth the works of Quinn Gray?

hi hotyh.

In the past, we've looked for a fake rn for comparison to the JBR rn,
early coverage of the QG case drew instant comparison to PR as the writer of a rn that read like a movie script. Guess not all the cnbc talking heads are up to speed on the Ramsey's exoneration?

 

[Sophie]

Thats easy.

Some socialist with a cold war grudge against this country tries to kidnap JR's daughter on Christmas Night. The ransom note was supposed to keep JR busy getting money and waiting for a phone call, while JBR is moved out of town by car. Had JBR been kidnapped as planned, she could've been a pawn in a much bigger game. A prize captive blond hair blue eyed American girl.

If anything went wrong, JBR would be killed quickly. JBR screamed and then there was no longer the need for the blanket or the wrist ligature or that bowl of pineapple (if it really exists) that would be used to move her by car.

The RN author has no originality of his own and therefore uses western movie and book fiction as a resource for expressions that he uses to communicate his ideolgies and beliefs.


His ideology is against personal wealth, against this country's political system, and has contempt for those far away who show themselves off while other people closer to him are sick or starving.

HOTYH, your CIA is famous for taking security threats seriously. To that extent, it's the envy of the terrorist-threatened countries. Do you really believe that your security services didn't cast at least a glance at the RN and do some level of investigation into a foreign threat in Boulder? Likewise, Lockheed had a sophisticated protocol for security threats and would at least have looked at any threat to its interests. Your theory would have us believe that these organisations ignored the threat and didn't even carry out the most rudimentary of house-keeping investigations. Frankly, I'd be surprised.

 

[Sophie]

I can't really add anything to that. Or what DeeDee said.

IDI tend to doubt whether John and Patsy would have had the mental wherewithal to pen the ransom note with any such agenda, especially after their child had just died. In all honesty, John was legendary for taking control of things (something which I believe mildly irritated Patsy) and Patsy was a clever, accomplished woman. Both had wide experience. Individually they were good. Combine their resources and I think you have a powerful and capable unit. This, to me, is what tends to be over-looked. People talk about John OR Patsy writing the RN rather than BOTH. People talk about John OR Patsy doing the staging rather than BOTH. Which I think calls for a resurrection of your 'Cross finger-pointing defence' thread.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Thats easy.

Some socialist with a cold war grudge against this country tries to kidnap JR's daughter on Christmas Night. The ransom note was supposed to keep JR busy getting money and waiting for a phone call, while JBR is moved out of town by car. Had JBR been kidnapped as planned, she could've been a pawn in a much bigger game. A prize captive blond hair blue eyed American girl.

If anything went wrong, JBR would be killed quickly. JBR screamed and then there was no longer the need for the blanket or the wrist ligature or that bowl of pineapple (if it really exists) that would be used to move her by car.

The RN author has no originality of his own and therefore uses western movie and book fiction as a resource for expressions that he uses to communicate his ideolgies and beliefs.

His ideology is against personal wealth, against this country's political system, and has contempt for those far away who show themselves off while other people closer to him are sick or starving.

Final answer.

HOTYH, your CIA is famous for taking security threats seriously. To that extent, it's the envy of the terrorist-threatened countries. Do you really believe that your security services didn't cast at least a glance at the RN and do some level of investigation into a foreign threat in Boulder? Likewise, Lockheed had a sophisticated protocol for security threats and would at least have looked at any threat to its interests. Your theory would have us believe that these organisations ignored the threat and didn't even carry out the most rudimentary of house-keeping investigations. Frankly, I'd be surprised.

The CIA and Lockheed aren't in the habit of keeping me informed of their 'housekeeping investigations'. Maybe you know more about that than I do. Lets just say that the US Secret Service had a looksee.

Meanwhile, I would venture that JBR's murder was a reaction and not an independent action. A reaction to some sort of rejection or action by this country (we respect your business but not the country...)

Its pretty easy for RDI to disregard all this, but one should keep in mind that the case is cold and the DA has no special relationship with the R's and did not even need to exhonerate them. Since the case is cold and the R's aren't really suspects, expressions like 'not the country' and Victory! seem to take on more meaning.