Since Sandy Hook, 1,000 kids under age 12 have died from guns

[Woodland]

Respectfully, I must say there is little here I can agree with. Very few Americans stockpile weapons. Now, I guess that may depend up on how you define stockpile. I have over ten firearms. Some I purchases, some that were my fathers that became mine when he passed away. I do some hunting, though not as much as I used to, and I enjoy target shooting. Some of the older rifles I keep solely as reminders of my grandfather and father. I have handguns and concealed carry permit. As an attorney, I have on occasion been threatened by opposing parties. But I do not consider myself to have a stockpile of weapons.

As an attorney, I see no "craven corruption" of the high courts or that they have been co-opted by the NRA. If there has been any bias in the courts over the years it has been against gun ownership. But the courts must apply the law. And the fact remains that the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution exists and it is the law of the land.

I find it a bit offensive to compare people's right to bear arms as akin to institutional racism. Why are my beliefs that I should be able to keep the firearms I have, a "crazy idea?" I, nor my friends and neighbors, need to change how we view gun ownership. The number of firearms in this country is increasing while gun violence is decreasing (with I believe an exception for portions of this year). Guns are not the problem. A culture of violence and anger IS part of the problem. Mental health is part of the problem. Enforcing current laws is part of the problem. Until people stop this irrational fear of firearms and gun owners, we will never have an intelligent discussion about reducing violence.

The shooting of children like happened at Sandy Hook or massacres like Las Vegas are not acceptable. To anyone. No one is saying otherwise.

Had to read this post a number of times to realize what seems missing or off imo about the views expressed.

The decrease in gun violence statement followed by (exception for ...) is one.
According to the BBC article linked, there were 372 mass shootings in the US in 2015, killing 475 people and wounding 1,870. According to the ABC article linked, there were 483 mass shootings in the US in 2016 and in 2017 there have been 307 mass shootings as of 5 Nov 2017.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604

https://www.abc15.com/news/national...ver-270-mass-shootings-have-occurred-in-2017_


307 is less than 483, but isn't that 307 too many? Where is the empathy or concern for how many people died in the 307 mass shootings and the injuries others have to recover from? Not that you don't have empathy for the victims (idk), but leaving it out of the overall view seems it might be part of the sticking point between pro and anti gun ownership.

The expression of what is enjoyed in gun ownership is there, the memories, the conceal carry permit etc, but the deceased?

Last, not sure how one can say guns are not the problem, rather it's the culture of violence, anger, mental health and lack of enforcing gun laws. If the US has all those problems, putting guns in the mix is not a good fit.

Jmo.

 

[Jennifer17]

Here's a thought.

Let's start teaching gun safety in public schools, beginning in pre-K. Gun safety should be part of "life safety" skills. Like seatbelt and carseat use, swimming, fire drills, "good touches and bad touches", etc. If we can try to mandate ridiculous "teaching" about "alternative lifestyles" and gender confusion-- wouldn't it be far more productive to teach kids about safety skills that could save their lives, or the lives of others??

We obsess about lockdown drills that terrify kids, and teach them "run, hide, fight", but avoid common sense life saving education because a swath of the population is opposed to kids even KNOWING what a gun is, or what to do when they encounter one that is unsecured.

After all, many states have state sanctioned high school trap leagues. If we can have state sanctioned competition shooting teams, why do we not have gun safety mandated beginning at least in kindergarten? As screwed up as I think public education is, I'd be fully in support of requiring gun safety education in every public school. That could go a long way to creating a safer environment for ALL kids, not just kids who have legally owned firearms in the home.

Every single kid in America should be trained in gun safety-- what to do when they see or encounter an unsecured firearm, and WHO to notify. Every. Single. Kid.

Except for one obstacle-- the politics of requiring the teaching in schools of gun safety and legal gun ownership is insurmountable. The politics of preventing the gun safety education would be fought more stridently than the mourning of the kids killed.

And God forbid that we teach kids to report unsafe gun situations in their homes and communities. Because that might mean that the police and social services will come investigating. And we can't have that. Because that might mean that people who are not allowed to possess firearms would be charged with several crimes. Can't have the kids turning in their family members and neighbors, right?

Every single kid should have age appropriate gun safety education in public school, at least once a year, IMO.

If all the children being shot were from disadvantaged households or shot with unregistered guns, you may have a point, but they are not all from that demographic. I imagine the Police Chief's gun was registered and I don't think that he was a felon, but his toddler managed to get it and shoot himself with it. All the age appropriate gun safety education did not help that little boy.

 

[kaen]

IMHO, the issue is not just access to guns. It is the issue of a paltry mental health system that does not address the needs of children and adults. Couple access to guns with mental health issues and you get the Texas Church massacre, Sandy Hook, Columbine. Mental health is not indicated in the Las Vegas shooting or Timothy McVeigh's attack on the Oklahoma Federal building.

Gabby Gifford's speaks eloquently on the issue of needing to deal with issues surrounding gun violence.

I am interested that people would support mandatory gun safety training but many object to teen sexuality/decisions curricula and personal safety curricula taught in schools. The idea that reproductive health and personal safety is the purview of parents but gun safety is not.

We can argue about gun safety programs but there are not studies that determine that gun safety training would change the growing trend of children being killed. The Washington Post confirms that there are few studies (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...pletely-misunderstand/?utm_term=.24b6d0551adc).

 

[kaen]

Perhaps the most popular of gun safety training program for kids is the Eddie Eagle GunSafe program sponsored by the NRA, yet no evidence shows that it will prevent kids from touching or picking up a found gun. The FAQ page for the program mentions a 2001 study that named the program the best of 80 gun accident prevention programs. But "best" is meaningless if it doesn't refer to effectiveness, and it doesn't.

That 2001 article, authored by Patricia K. Howard, PhD, RN, does conclude that the Eddie Eagle program contains the most elements of a successful educational program in general, but it's all theoretical, as Dr. Howard points out multiple times.

"Outcome measures on the effectiveness of the Eddie Eagle program are limited to anecdotal testimonials provided by adults who have reportedly witnessed a change in children's behavior after completing the program and internal data collection," Dr. Howard wrote. Everyone familiar with the scientific method knows that anecdotes are not data."

From Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/taraha...r-child-but-this-question-might/#340c105155b8

 

[kaen]

the second study suggests that child access prevention laws are more effective than child safety programs.

From :http://childrensfirearmsafetyalliance.com/academic-research

GAO Report – Programs that Promote Safe Storage and Research on Their EffectivenessUnited States Government Accountability Office (2017)

Key findings: Children who received instruction in gun safety were no more likely than those who did not to heed basic rules about what to do if they came across a gun — like leaving the room, not touching the gun or notifying an adult. Informational sessions or videos “did not instill consistent safe firearm habits in young children.” The NRA’s Eddie Eagle program did succeed at getting children between the ages of 4 and 6 to verbally repeat rules on what to do when they encounter a gun. But those same children were not significantly more likely than others who hadn’t gone through the Eddie Eagle training program to actually follow through with those behaviors when they encountered a gun.



The Effect of Child Access Prevention Laws on Unintentional Child Firearm Fatalities
Lisa Hepburn, PhD, MPH, Deborah Azrael, PhD, MS, Matthew Miller, MD, ScD, MPH, and David Hemenway, PhD
Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery (2005)

Key Findings: Most states that enacted CAP laws experienced greater subsequent declines in the rate of unintentional firearm deaths for children age 0 to 14 compared with states not enacting the laws; however when adjusted for firearm prevalence and state and national effects the laws were associated with statistically significant declines only in Florida and California. Florida’s law, which is the oldest and one of the toughest (violation is a felony) resulted in a 51% reduction in accidental firearm deaths among children in that state over the eight years for which there was data.

Again, child safety is not the same issue of mass shootings and illegal legal gun access combined with mental illness.

Sandy Hook broke my heart. The idea that we have not yet passed any legislation on mental health issues and gun ownership/access is awful.

 

[kaen]

From: http://childrensfirearmsafetyalliance.com/academic-research

Parental Misconceptions About Children and Firearms
Frances Baxley, MD; Matthew Miller, MD, ScD
Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine (2006)

Key Findings: Children younger than 10 years were as likely as older children to report knowing the storage location (73% vs 79%, respectively) and to report having handled a household gun (36% vs 36%, respectively). 39% of parents who reported that their children did not know the storage location of household guns and 22% of parents who reported that their children had never handled a household gun were contradicted by their children’s reports. In other words, kids often know where firearms are stored in the home and have actually handled them much more than parents realize.

 

[kaen]

From:http://childrensfirearmsafetyallianc...demic-research

Teaching Safety Skills to Children- Prevention of Firearm Injury as an Exemplar of Best Practice in Assessment, Training, and Generalization of Safety Skills
Raymond G Miltenberger, Ph.D., BCBA
Behavior Analysis in Practice (2017)

Key Findings: A behavioral skills training approach, in which the child receives instructions and modeling and then rehearses the skills with feedback in response to a variety of simulated situations, is more effective than an informational approach that does not have the active learning component. In situ assessment is the only way to determine if the child will use the skills in response to a seemingly real safety threat. Skills learned through BST do not always generalize to the natural environment.In situ training is the most reliable method for producing the generalized use of safety skills across a number of skill domains.

 

[kaen]

From: http://childrensfirearmsafetyallianc...demic-research

Comparison of Two Programs to Teach Firearm Injury Prevention Skills to 6- and 7-Year-Old Children
Brian J. Gatheridge, MS; Raymond G. Miltenberger, PhD; Daniel F. Huneke, BS; Melisa J. Satterlund, BS; Amanda R. Mattern, BS; Brigette M. Johnson, BS; and Christopher A. Flessner, MS
Pediatrics (2004)

Key Findings: Both the Eddie Eagle gun safety program developed by the National Rifle Association and a behavioral skills training program that emphasized the use of instruction, modeling, rehearsal, and feedback were effective for teaching children to verbalize the safety skills message (don’t touch the gun, get away, and tell an adult). However, children who received behavioral skills training were significantly more likely to demonstrate the desired safety skills in role-playing assessments and in situ assessments than were children who received Eddie Eagle program training. In addition, in situ training was found to be effective for teaching the desired safety skills for both groups of children.


Any child safety program to be put in place would need to be comprehensive and in situ in order to have a level of effectiveness---going way beyond the current oft used program that is focused on Eddie the Eagle.

 

[flourish]

Perhaps the most popular of gun safety training program for kids is the Eddie Eagle GunSafe program sponsored by the NRA, yet no evidence shows that it will prevent kids from touching or picking up a found gun. The FAQ page for the program mentions a 2001 study that named the program the best of 80 gun accident prevention programs. But "best" is meaningless if it doesn't refer to effectiveness, and it doesn't.

That 2001 article, authored by Patricia K. Howard, PhD, RN, does conclude that the Eddie Eagle program contains the most elements of a successful educational program in general, but it's all theoretical, as Dr. Howard points out multiple times.

"Outcome measures on the effectiveness of the Eddie Eagle program are limited to anecdotal testimonials provided by adults who have reportedly witnessed a change in children's behavior after completing the program and internal data collection," Dr. Howard wrote. Everyone familiar with the scientific method knows that anecdotes are not data."

From Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/taraha...r-child-but-this-question-might/#340c105155b8

I used this one a couple of times in addition to the one already in use at my school. My anecdote is I saw no difference. We could review it all in various formats and still they played "guns" with everything from Lego to banana and inevitably one would go pick up fake gun later (I didn't use that particular method just saw other classes) or answer, "pick it up," or "shoot bad guys" when asked about hypothetical scenarios.

Like... Stranger danger is universal--you don't see kids going with strangers on TV and movies etc unless it's "a bad guy" kidnapping movie. But guns..., it's almost like early cognitive dissonance or something... Like it's unsaid..."yeah yeah teacher I'm only 4 but even I know guns are badass." Not with all of them, of course. Just... it's noticable.

It needs to be a multifaceted and holistic and universal attitude approach for change to happen, and maybe I'm a pessimist...or maybe it's the painkillers and possible concussion talking (stupid slippery ice got me) but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[flourish]

the second study suggests that child access prevention laws are more effective than child safety programs.

From :http://childrensfirearmsafetyalliance.com/academic-research

GAO Report – Programs that Promote Safe Storage and Research on Their EffectivenessUnited States Government Accountability Office (2017)

Key findings: Children who received instruction in gun safety were no more likely than those who did not to heed basic rules about what to do if they came across a gun — like leaving the room, not touching the gun or notifying an adult. Informational sessions or videos “did not instill consistent safe firearm habits in young children.” The NRA’s Eddie Eagle program did succeed at getting children between the ages of 4 and 6 to verbally repeat rules on what to do when they encounter a gun. But those same children were not significantly more likely than others who hadn’t gone through the Eddie Eagle training program to actually follow through with those behaviors when they encountered a gun.



The Effect of Child Access Prevention Laws on Unintentional Child Firearm Fatalities
Lisa Hepburn, PhD, MPH, Deborah Azrael, PhD, MS, Matthew Miller, MD, ScD, MPH, and David Hemenway, PhD
Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery (2005)

Key Findings: Most states that enacted CAP laws experienced greater subsequent declines in the rate of unintentional firearm deaths for children age 0 to 14 compared with states not enacting the laws; however when adjusted for firearm prevalence and state and national effects the laws were associated with statistically significant declines only in Florida and California. Florida’s law, which is the oldest and one of the toughest (violation is a felony) resulted in a 51% reduction in accidental firearm deaths among children in that state over the eight years for which there was data.

Again, child safety is not the same issue of mass shootings and illegal legal gun access combined with mental illness.

Sandy Hook broke my heart. The idea that we have not yet passed any legislation on mental health issues and gun ownership/access is awful.

Kaen, thank you. Yes. I had to go to work and look at the faces of the little ones and put blackout paper on my classroom windows and increased lockdown drills... Ugh it was awful and heartbreaking. Then all the conspiracy theories OMG so effing wrong.

 

[kaen]

From the Huffington Post: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-weisser/child-access-prevention-laws_b_6546772.html

The gun industry and the NRA touts their commitment to gun safety because unintentional gun injuries have steadily declined over the past twenty years. The NSSF cites data from the National Safety Council which shows that deaths of children from accidental shootings has dropped by more than 70 percent since 1993, with all unintentional gun mortality for both children and adults now standing at an all-time low. What better proof could there be about the effectiveness of the NRA’s Eddie Eagle program or other safety programs conducted by the NSSF? All the more reason why comprehensive CAP laws would just make it more difficult for gun owners to protect themselves, their families and their homes, right?....


The NRA has never validated its claims about the effectiveness of Eddie Eagle through an objective, third-party source. And while the NRA Eddie Eagle website contains what at first glance appears to be an impressive list of individuals who comprise the program “task force,” if you examine the list closely you soon discover that while it includes teachers, school administrators, NRA staff and a few cops, there isn’t a single individual connected to the program in any way who has ever attempted to study the impact or value of the program at all.

 

[kaen]

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.2014.302242

February 2015, Vol 105, No. 2 | American Journal of Public Health

An interesting article-----Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms
Jonathan M. Metzl, MD, PhD, and Kenneth T. MacLeish, PhD

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1047279714001471

Annals of Epidemiology
Volume 25, Issue 5, May 2015, Pages 366-376
Annals of Epidemiology
Policy Mini-Symposium
Mental illness and reduction of gun violence and suicide: bringing epidemiologic research to policy
Author links open overlay panelJeffrey W.SwansonPhDaE. ElizabethMcGintyPhD, MSbSeenaFazelMBChB, MD, FRCPsychcVickie M.MaysPhD, MSPHde

Good discussions on issues, including prevalence of mental health and gun violence.

 

[Jennifer17]

From the Huffington Post: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-weisser/child-access-prevention-laws_b_6546772.html

The gun industry and the NRA touts their commitment to gun safety because unintentional gun injuries have steadily declined over the past twenty years. The NSSF cites data from the National Safety Council which shows that deaths of children from accidental shootings has dropped by more than 70 percent since 1993, with all unintentional gun mortality for both children and adults now standing at an all-time low. What better proof could there be about the effectiveness of the NRA’s Eddie Eagle program or other safety programs conducted by the NSSF? All the more reason why comprehensive CAP laws would just make it more difficult for gun owners to protect themselves, their families and their homes, right?....


The NRA has never validated its claims about the effectiveness of Eddie Eagle through an objective, third-party source. And while the NRA Eddie Eagle website contains what at first glance appears to be an impressive list of individuals who comprise the program “task force,” if you examine the list closely you soon discover that while it includes teachers, school administrators, NRA staff and a few cops, there isn’t a single individual connected to the program in any way who has ever attempted to study the impact or value of the program at all.

BBM. Is that true? There were 70% more before 1993? Holy moly.

 

[kaen]

https://www.bradycampaign.org/sites/default/files/Kids-and-Guns-Report 2016_final.pdf

another great resource.

 

[kaen]

BBM. Is that true? There were 70% more before 1993? Holy moly.

Another paragraph explaining that it is not causal....

"The NRA and the gun lobby in general can’t ever seem to understand that causation and causality are two very different things. The fact that unintentional gun injuries have declined over the same period that the NRA claims to have introduced its Eddie Eagle gun safety program to millions of school kids doesn’t mean that one has anything to do with the other, even if they occurred at the same time.

Public health researchers have convincingly demonstrated that efforts to change the behavior of children by discussing issues in group settings yields, if any positive results. The most effective way to modify the behavior of children is on a one-to-one basis, and if the teaching is widened to a group setting, the target group should be very small. The fact that the NRA has never conducted any study to test the before-and-after results of distributing their safety literature either in classrooms or in community groups makes it impossible to accept their self-congratulatory statements about teaching gun safety to kids."

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

110 percent this :bow:

If all the children being shot were from disadvantaged households or shot with unregistered guns, you may have a point, but they are not all from that demographic. I imagine the Police Chief's gun was registered and I don't think that he was a felon, but his toddler managed to get it and shoot himself with it. All the age appropriate gun safety education did not help that little boy.

 

[Jennifer17]

I also think that the casualness of accepting gun deaths, leads to a society that accepts violence. Not just from gun deaths, but an acceptance that violence is the way to settle a dispute.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

From: http://childrensfirearmsafetyalliance.com/academic-research

Parental Misconceptions About Children and Firearms
Frances Baxley, MD; Matthew Miller, MD, ScD
Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine (2006)

Key Findings: Children younger than 10 years were as likely as older children to report knowing the storage location (73% vs 79%, respectively) and to report having handled a household gun (36% vs 36%, respectively). 39% of parents who reported that their children did not know the storage location of household guns and 22% of parents who reported that their children had never handled a household gun were contradicted by their children’s reports. In other words, kids often know where firearms are stored in the home and have actually handled them much more than parents realize.

kaen!! I'm learning a lot from the primo knowledge bombs you're droppin'. Thank you.

:read:


[video=youtube;17lkdqoLt44]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17lkdqoLt44[/video]

 

[Jennifer17]

I am Australian where we are not allowed to have guns for self protection. We can have them for hunting and other pursuits, with strict regulation, but one of my friend's brothers did have guns that he should not have had. His 14 year old son, showing them off to another 14 year old, accidentally shot and killed himself. The father, my friend's brother, was a policeman. He swore that his son did not know of the existence of the guns, but he obviously did. He lost his career and most of his benefits from that career. He was not a hunter, he just liked guns. It was not his police service gun. They are only available to them while on duty, they have to been checked in and out at the start and end of shifts.

 

[kaen]

kaen!! I'm learning a lot from the primo knowledge bombs you're droppin'. Thank you.

:read:


[video=youtube;17lkdqoLt44]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17lkdqoLt44[/video]

You are very welcome. As an educator, much of my life is spent looking at efficacy of interventions in the lives of children and adolescents. I am often weary of the the "let's make it a school thing" that often comes with no funding, no longer instruction time, and no training for the adults to implement. Special interest groups (Eddie the Eagle and NRA, for example) often don't have independent research to back up their programs but they get put into schools and the whole country thinks the problem is solved.