South Africa - Anni Dewani, 28, shot to death, Gugulethu, 13 Nov 2010 #4

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  • #461
If Dewani is innocent, why didn't he return to SA asap and clear his name?

I am completely on the fence with this case but if I were him, whether I was guilty or innocent I would resist going back... and I am the most compliant law abiding person on the planet!

I am not tarring every single SA police officer with the same brush but corruption is rife and the internet is littered with accounts of injustice/brutality/etc.. Dewani is in a better position than most, being rich and a foreigner with the eyes of the world watching, but I don't think justice is guaranteed for anyone over there.
 
  • #462
I am completely on the fence with this case but if I were him, whether I was guilty or innocent I would resist going back... and I am the most compliant law abiding person on the planet!

I am not tarring every single SA police officer with the same brush but corruption is rife and the internet is littered with accounts of injustice/brutality/etc.. Dewani is in a better position than most, being rich and a foreigner with the eyes of the world watching, but I don't think justice is guaranteed for anyone over there.

Same here with regard to returning to SA. I'm not entirely on the fence but do see the evidence as weak so far re a conviction.
I feel suspicious of SD re his frequent additional contact with Tongo by phone and face to face in the hotel after the murder.
His reckless behaviour re choosing the taxi driver.
The helicopter ride - booking through Tongo rather than through the hotel or some other legitimate outlet.
Panorama programme showed several reception staff at the hotel ( where Monde worked?) saying the amount being paid was way too high, he was being 'cornered'.
As a man who wanted a cheap taxi and tour guide and money exchange rates, he would have checked out the helicopter prices and would have known he could get it cheaper through legitimate means.
If it was a robbery, why let SD go free to identify them. Apparently that's unusual in SA robberies/hijacks.
The money, although this is not entirely clear yet.
As a well travelled man, why wasn't he more careful?
After the murder why wasn't he more suspicious of Tongo, until it was proved otherwise.

So I remain suspicious of SD and can see why it was believed he had a case to answer. What I'm less sure of is motive.
 
  • #463
Same here with regard to returning to SA. I'm not entirely on the fence but do see the evidence as weak so far re a conviction.
I feel suspicious of SD re his frequent additional contact with Tongo by phone and face to face in the hotel after the murder.
His reckless behaviour re choosing the taxi driver.
The helicopter ride - booking through Tongo rather than through the hotel or some other legitimate outlet.
Panorama programme showed several reception staff at the hotel ( where Monde worked?) saying the amount being paid was way too high, he was being 'cornered'.
As a man who wanted a cheap taxi and tour guide and money exchange rates, he would have checked out the helicopter prices and would have known he could get it cheaper through legitimate means.
If it was a robbery, why let SD go free to identify them. Apparently that's unusual in SA robberies/hijacks.
The money, although this is not entirely clear yet.
As a well travelled man, why wasn't he more careful?
After the murder why wasn't he more suspicious of Tongo, until it was proved otherwise.

So I remain suspicious of SD and can see why it was believed he had a case to answer. What I'm less sure of is motive.

I agree that there are things that just don't make real sense or can be interpreted as fishy. Trouble is, all SD has to do is give a version that is possibly true. If the prosecution cant knock holes in this then he is NG. The testimony of the co conspirators lacks sufficient credibility IMO to do this effectively and I am wondering just what else they have. Maybe his own cross examination will be his downfall but then, people thought that with OP.
 
  • #464
<mod snip>

eimajjj, SD has a case to answer, my opinions or theories are no different than the state's case against him, I'm not personally bringing him to trial, it's not my case. I will sleuth him, isn't that what we're about here. I thought it strange in your other post that you were shocked that myself or another poster were attacking his character? Then what do you think of the Crown Counsel who've extradited him and are examining his actions/behaviour/witness statements and the very real possibility that he hired a hit man to kill his wife?

Can you give an example of SD busy grieving? Capt. Lutchman described both SD and Tongo as being in a state of shock when they were first brought in as victims of a hijacking, we know now that Tongo is definitely guilty, and presumably, SD is innocent, yet they both exhibited an acute stress reaction, which also could be interpreted as an adrenaline rush. So I thought, ok, I'd like to explore what comes after, this is not just from CCTV footage, but from first hand account of witnesses.

SD broke down in tears in front of all the family and police officers on November 14 when he was informed that Anni was dead, 24 hours later he's hooking up on Gaydar and Recon, there is evidence in phone records. So is that what a grieving husband does when his young bride is brutally murdered? It doesn't mean he's a killer but he's not a man who's devastated by his wife's death, maybe he was relieved, he could get back to England and hit the scene once again without a wife to answer to. I'm trying to justify his behaviour as it appears to an outsider, like LE, the state and the public, and imo, he was not a man in love. That's no big deal in stark reality of what happened, so no point stressing over it. I'm not easily influenced by a flood of tears or carry on to prove one is genuine either.

Imo, SD's breakdown came after he was accused of a serious crime and called back to answer questions. Maybe, being scared to death to go back to South Africa is quite telling, he personally chose South Africa as the honeymoon destination. Anni had no idea till a few days before of where they were headed.

SD chooses one of the most dangerous places without Anni's input or decision as a couple, and the day after arriving is driven into the 'knife crime slums' of Gugulethu at 11 pm at night and is murdered! And like a coward, he doesn't want to travel back and defend his name, to oversee Anni's killers are brought to justice? As if that's not bad enough, SD the controlling, perfectionist says it was Anni who persisted in the tour of the slums in the middle of the night! SD was the one who wanted to come to South Africa! Anni was doomed the moment she met this man, imo.

About not being able to identify the hijackers, SD in his first statement said, he will not be able to identify them, he didn't say he can't, there is a huge difference.

article-1384708-0BF02FBE00000578-584_224x358.jpg

article-1384708-0BF02F5000000578-806_224x358.jpg


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384708/Shrien-Dewani-I-identify-wifes-killers.html

Carrying the large amount of cash for a helicopter flight that wasn't booked or a great 'deal', how can SD explain that, he can't. Or why did it take him 3 years to even come up with why he had the cash in the car and that he confided in Tongo that he had it? Why hide Anni's £25,000 ring in a vehicle that's being stolen?
Why did SD phone Tongo after seeing him in the hotel where he gave him the money? SD didn't look grief stricken then.

Just out of interest, I looked into contract killings in Australia, there's actually a full report produced by the Australian Institute of Criminology which I've bookmarked for future reference. :p
There have been hits done for as little as $500. and that doesn't go very far in Oz. Only 50% are solved and the most common motive is the 'Dissolution of a Relationship', the second most common motive is 'unknown.'
So in comparison, SA would fall very short of success with solving contract killings. Dewani's family friend, Dr Raghavjee was hijacked and murdered in SA in 2007, his murder remains unsolved.

I think I've covered everything, lol. BTW, I'm not sure of his guilt, how can I be, but I'll continue to follow the trial and consider every bit of evidence that is brought up.

JMO
 
  • #465
PrimeSuspect:

I think you have covered everything in your post. It will be interesting to see how the judge views all the evidence at the end of the trial. With the 3 convicted men, Qwabi and Mngeni, supposedly the main witnesses it seems to be one man's word against the other rather than any 'smoking guns'. If the witness who gave drove Qwabi and Mngeni to the hi-jacking site takes the stand it will be interesting to hear how much they told him and whether SD was mentioned.
 
  • #466
The theatre of the absurd. Until Dewani stands up in court and explains why he 'allowed' Anni to take them on a tour of a dangerous area, with pockets, purses, cubbyholes whatever filled with cash - to hand over to an unknown man late night, for an unconfirmed heli trip in a foreign country - I won't believe a word of his story.

And as for those grinning, carefree expressions captured on hotel cctv just after Annie was 'kidnapped'...nothing can ever explain them, in my opinion.
 
  • #467
  • #468
He's been asked to clarify the use of different names again. They all seemed quite fluid with what they called each other - and themselves, to me.

Ayesha &#8207;@CloraVannieKaap 4 mins4 minutes ago

#DewaniTrial Adv Van zyl wants to know if Mbolombo made up the name Abongile to protect Qwabe. He says no.
 
  • #469
vanessa poonah &#8207;@vanessapoonah01 4 mins4 minutes ago

#DewaniTrial Van Zyl: in car Tongo says accused told him its not the first time doing this in SA, must look like hijacking. Remember?
 
  • #470
1010
FvZ wants to clear some details up with MM. Starts with MM calling Qwabe (MQ) "Abongile".

FvZ says MQ doesn't recall being called Abongile. MM says that when he met MQ on the beach he didn't ask for his real name and just saved it as "Abongile".
1011
FvZ wants to clear some details up with MM. Starts with MM calling Qwabe (MQ) "Abongile".

FvZ says MQ doesn't recall being called Abongile. MM says that when he met MQ on the beach he didn't ask for his real name and just saved it as "Abongile".
1013
FvZ keeps pressing about the name Abongile.

Judge Traverson interjects and asks MM if he made the name up.
1014
FvZ: You told police that after your talk with Tongo, you gave the number of "someone I know as Abongile" but everyone who knows him calls him Spra.

MM says he doesn't know that nickname.
1017
FvZ moves to the meeting on the Saturday. Asks about gloves.
 
  • #471
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/LIVE-Dewani-in-court-day-18-20141110-3
1018
MM says he spoke to MQ about the gloves over the phone.
1020
FvZ running through the phone calls and texts on the day.
1021
News24 journalist Roy McKenzie is in court today. Follow him on Twitter for more.
Shrien Dewani hands a note on yellow paper to his brother, who passes it over to his defence team #DewaniTrial
&#8212; Roy McKenzie (@RoyMcK) November 10, 2014
 
  • #472
vanessa poonah @vanessapoonah01 · 3 mins 3 minutes ago

#DewaniTrial MM: they wanted gloves that night. Van Zyl: who's they? MM: I was referring to Qwabe. Van Zyl: why refer to Qwabe to 'they'?
 
  • #473
EWN Reporter &#8207;@ewnreporter 27m27 minutes ago

Back in the High court for another week of Shrien Dewan's murder trial.Thursday marks the 4 year anniversary of Anni's murder

Defence will continue cross-examining the middleman over his role in the murder

VZ: in your statement to police you referred to Qwabe as "Abongile",but Qwabe told the court he is not known by this name.

MM:when I met him on the beach,didn't want to ask him for his real name so I just saved it as "Abongile".

VZ: why did you stick to this fictitious name in the Mngeni trial?

MM:for the court to get clarity at the time.

VZ:I understand that,but why keep calling him "Abongile"?

Judge: Where did you get the name from, is it something you made up?

MM:since I forgot Mziwamadoda's name, I just saved it as "Abongile".

Judge: so you made it up?


MM: yes.

VZ:you told police that after talking to Tongo,you suggested he calls "I know as Abongile".

MM:that's correct.

VZ:wasn't that an attempt on your part to try & protect Qwabe?

MM: no.

VZ:and you had to stick to that name?

VZ: its a name you made up & used throughout? Why still use that name?

MM: no particular reason, I started using I continued
 
  • #474
vanessa poonah &#8207;@vanessapoonah01

#DewaniTrial Van Zyl: did you know it would be a hijacking. MM: I happened to know when Zola fetched me at work.#SABCNews
 
  • #475
vanessa poonah @vanessapoonah01 · 1 min 1 minute ago

#DewaniTrial Van Zyl: How was this woman going to be killed. What did you know at 10:30am? MM: Abongile and others wanted gloves #SABCNews

vanessa poonah @vanessapoonah01 · 53 secs 53 seconds ago

#DewaniTrial ... For their fingerprints not to be found on the car... Heard from Abongile they wanted gloves for this..#SABCNews
 
  • #476
vanessa poonah @vanessapoonah01 · 1m 1 minute ago

#DewaniTrial Van Zyl: that means Qwabe knew there was going to be a motor vehicle involved? MM: I never asked him.#SABCNews
 
  • #477
vanessa poonah &#8207;@vanessapoonah01

#DewaniTrial Van Zyl:According to Tongo he didn't know yet at that time how the person would be killed. After after money exchange#SABCNews
 
  • #478
vanessa poonah @vanessapoonah01 · 1 min 1 minute ago

#DewaniTrial MM: Tongo wanted to know on which shift I'm going. I said starting at 3. He wanted to know where I was.#SABCNews
 
  • #479
EWN Reporter &#8207;@ewnreporter 13m13 minutes ago

VZ: you said Tongo told you its not the first time accused has done this & it had to look like a hijacking.

VZ: lets go to Sat afternoon, you told the court about a convo in which gloves were mentioned. How did this come about?

MM: was telling Tongo that Abongile (Qwabe) wanted gloves.

VZ: what was Tongo's reply?

MM: he said he would try.

VZ: that phone call made shortly after 4pm that Sat afternoon.. would you agree?

MM: I agree.

VZ: when did Qwabe ask you about gloves?

MM: he asked in the morning at approximately 10:30am.

VZ: personally or telephone call?

MM: call.

VZ now refers to the phone records & timeline.


Roy McKenzie &#8207;@RoyMcK 10m10 minutes ago Cape Town

Shrien Dewani hands a note on yellow paper to his brother, who passes it over to his defence team
 
  • #480
vanessa poonah &#8207;@vanessapoonah01

#DewaniTrial MM: I told him I was at home... I said to him I'm leaving home at 1:30pm. Van Zyl: did you arrange time for this meeting? MM:No
 
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