South Hadley,MA Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying

[raeann]

Just guessing here...I'm thinking little was done because these were perceived as "good kids." The Football captain, school photographer, hockey/lacrosse star.

When you assume "goodness" , you tend to downplay bullying to "relationship problems"...something that they saw as normal, no big deal.

To them, no real harm could come from these "good kids"...so the onus was on Phoebe to just put up with it.

If instead the Bullies had been some druggie crowd, someone the principal and teachers looked down on...ahh...then, Phoebe would have had intervention on her behalf.

I agree that this pre-conception regarding these kids played a large part in the way it was handled. If the attackers had been "outsiders" themselves, they would have immediately been under the scrutiny of administration. For example, if the abusers had been black, hispanic, or "emo" kids......the response would have been completely different. LIKEWISE....had Phoebe been a new student from Asia, Africa, or the Middle East, the attention to stopping the attacks would have been swift and severe. FWIW, this is why we should place a high value on equal treatment of all. One can never assume that the pretty white girl could not possibly be a victim of prejudice.

jmoo

 

[Paladine]

great point, raeann!

 

[Boyz_Mum]

In a discussion I'm having elsewhere regarding bullying in schools, another poster is saying that it is not the job of schools to teach character, to teach children how to treat others, to discuss morals & ethics with the children. That person states that the responsibility for that lies with the children's home, family, church. And, while I agree that those are important elements in shaping a child's conscience & behavior - I also believe that the larger community can and should step in where those fail.

Anyway - what I'd like to know & figured people here might be able to find out, is whether the bullies, any of them, attended church with their families. Does anyone know how we could find that information?

You know, I am not sure if I feel it's the school's 'job' to teach our children how to treat others BUT if children don't come from their homes at the pre-school age knowing what's acceptable behavior, I do feel the job falls to the school. IMO it's the school's responsibility to have rules that teach children (and teens) to be a part of a society and if they haven't been taught these skills at home than the school should punish the inappropriate behavior. I feel respect for another human is part of living within a society.

We've taught our children appropriate behavior at home and if the school knows they step out of line, IMO, the children deserve the punishment the school determines fitting and then they will be punished again at home. We aren't crazy strict but a few weeks away from whatever they love the most seems to help us keep them in line. I need the school to reinforce what we've taught at home as the children spend half their day there. I'd much rather they learn at home or at school than have them spend a day in court because we all failed them.

Sorry for the lengthy rant, it's not pointed toward you or your opinion. I do get annoyed by people who feel that the school has no 'responsibility' in this very important aspect of living in a normal society.

I don't know if these kids attended church, I got all caught up in the first part of your post. :blushing: I don't know if church makes a difference in a person's bullying behavior. We even had a 'mean girls' clique in Catechism.

All the above is JMO.

 

[stmarysmead]

I believe it's the school's job to create a safe and productive learning environment. IMO, that means requiring certain standards of behavior and enforcing them.

You can't do surgery in an operating room where the nurses are dancing to their Ipods and the anesthesiologist is eating pizza. A certain environment is CRUCIAL, not optional to doing the job.

Teachers cannot teach effectively nor students LEARN...if kids fear walking in halls, if kids step into a class in session and yell profanities. Sorry, allowing bullying behavior makes for a substandard school.

They have to enforce certain standards of civility and certain required conduct. No teacher can do their job properly without a proper ENFORCED civil learning enviorment for students.

 

[jjenny]

I believe it's the school's job to create a safe and productive learning environment. IMO, that means requiring certain standards of behavior and enforcing them.

You can't do surgery in an operating room where the nurses are dancing to their Ipods and the anesthesiologist is eating pizza. A certain environment is CRUCIAL, not optional to doing the job.

Teachers cannot teach effectively nor students LEARN...if kids fear walking in halls, if kids step into a class in session and yell profanities. Sorry, allowing bullying behavior makes for a substandard school.

They have to enforce certain standards of civility and certain required conduct. No teacher can do their job properly without a proper ENFORCED civil learning enviorment for students.

Yes of course the idea is to create a safe learning environment. I am sure teachers would all like to have a safe learning environment.
Unfortunately some of the students might have other ideas sometimes.

 

[Paladine]

I believe it's the school's job to create a safe and productive learning environment. IMO, that means requiring certain standards of behavior and enforcing them.

You can't do surgery in an operating room where the nurses are dancing to their Ipods and the anesthesiologist is eating pizza. A certain environment is CRUCIAL, not optional to doing the job.

Teachers cannot teach effectively nor students LEARN...if kids fear walking in halls, if kids step into a class in session and yell profanities. Sorry, allowing bullying behavior makes for a substandard school.

They have to enforce certain standards of civility and certain required conduct. No teacher can do their job properly without a proper ENFORCED civil learning enviorment for students.

It's hard to concentrate and absorb when a person feels threatened, imo.

 

[Paladine]

We need to show children we value their emotional wellbeing as much as their physical wellbeing. That a spirit can be "battered", too...not just the physical body. IMO

 

[stmarysmead]

It is the responsibility of the PAID PROFESSIONAL to see to it that a safe environment exists, no matter what "ideas" minor children may have. That is a key part of their profession.

"In locos parentis."

The term in loco parentis, Latin for "in the place of a parent" or "instead of a parent,"[1] refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent.

In loco parentis means “in place of parent.” The in loco parentis legal doctrine can be applied to both governmental and non-governmental entities, and is implicated “when a person [or legal entity] undertakes the care and control of another [person of legal incapacity] in the absence of such supervision by the latter’s natural parents and in the absence of formal legal approval.” Black’s Law Dictionary 787 (6th Ed. 1990)(quoting Griego v. Hogan, 377 P.2d 953, 955-56 (N.M. 1963)). The doctrine most commonly applies to minors, but can apply in other contexts, such as adult-age persons who are suffering from permanent and severe medical incapacity.

 

[Paladine]

It is the responsibility of the PAID PROFESSIONAL to see to it, no matter what "ideas" minor children may have.

"In locos parentis."

The term in loco parentis, Latin for "in the place of a parent" or "instead of a parent,"[1] refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent.

In loco parentis means “in place of parent.” The in loco parentis legal doctrine can be applied to both governmental and non-governmental entities, and is implicated “when a person [or legal entity] undertakes the care and control of another [person of legal incapacity] in the absence of such supervision by the latter’s natural parents and in the absence of formal legal approval.” Black’s Law Dictionary 787 (6th Ed. 1990)(quoting Griego v. Hogan, 377 P.2d 953, 955-56 (N.M. 1963)). The doctrine most commonly applies to minors, but can apply in other contexts, such as adult-age persons who are suffering from permanent and severe medical incapacity.

I agree. If they can't control the kids, expell or find a new job. No more excuses.

 

[jjenny]

It is the responsibility of the PAID PROFESSIONAL to see to it, no matter what "ideas" minor children may have.

"In locos parentis."

The term in loco parentis, Latin for "in the place of a parent" or "instead of a parent,"[1] refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent.

In loco parentis means “in place of parent.” The in loco parentis legal doctrine can be applied to both governmental and non-governmental entities, and is implicated “when a person [or legal entity] undertakes the care and control of another [person of legal incapacity] in the absence of such supervision by the latter’s natural parents and in the absence of formal legal approval.” Black’s Law Dictionary 787 (6th Ed. 1990)(quoting Griego v. Hogan, 377 P.2d 953, 955-56 (N.M. 1963)). The doctrine most commonly applies to minors, but can apply in other contexts, such as adult-age persons who are suffering from permanent and severe medical incapacity.

Right. Have you ever tried teaching?

 

[stmarysmead]

Right. Have you ever tried teaching?

Yes, I have. Junior High school and later high school English. Both in lower middle class "tough" areas.

 

[jjenny]

Yes, I have. Junior High school and later high school English. Both in lower middle class "tough" areas.

How did that go? Did they all behave?

 

[Paladine]

Right. Have you ever tried teaching?

I haven't. Not that you were asking me...lol...

I agree it's a tough job. And kids can get out of hand, we see it here, in this case and in many others. I'm saying, let's change it. Let's demand accountability from all. Change what's "acceptable", the "norm". If the majority deems it, it will be done, imo.

 

[raeann]

Right. Have you ever tried teaching?

Yes, I have worked as a special services professional in at least a dozen different schools. These have included private upperclass schools and the lowest of low income schools in two different states and four different cities. NEVER, ever, have I seen this type of behavior allowed or condoned. The FIRST time that someone lays a hand on another student or any type of projectile weapon is used to attack another student--immediate suspension has been enforced. A second incident REQUIRED an extended term of suspension, and depending on the history of their prior behavior, they could be transferred into an alternative school, placed on home schooling or expelled from that school jurisdiction completely. There are processes of hearings that such students are allowed, so there is a way to review any decisions made regarding this, thus allowing them more than a fair turn to state their case.

FWIW...I am not saying that this eliminated all bullying behaviors....but knowing that there WERE consequences and that they would be enforced did work! The victim feels that they have recourse and that their complaints will be heard....that alone can prevent an outcome like this one.


ALSO, none of those schools ever had a suicide or even an on-campus injury due to bullying.

 

[stmarysmead]

I loved it.

You start out tough and set standards.

You ENFORCE THEM.

But you respect them...never humiliate them. But you are NOT a friend. They come to know you like them, but you will NOT accept UNACCEPTABLE behavior.

If you make a rule, enforce it. Be predictable.

I always try to find one thing special about every kid. Something you can honestly praise them for. It's always there, if you look. Even the "bad" kids are hungry for praise...if it's sincere. This takes time and effort but IMO, it's acrucial part of the job.

You have no idea how simple class discipline is...when the "tough" kids are on your side. Show respect, compassion, but demand it back.

Works for me.

 

[jjenny]

As I understand it, the incident with the alleged energy drink bottle throwing (which the DA thinks is a "deadly weapon") occurred right before the suicide and after school, so I would guess the school was not informed about it to even take any actions before the suicide. What is it that they knew but did not do?

 

[stmarysmead]

As I understand it, the incident with the alleged energy drink bottle throwing (which the DA thinks is a "deadly weapon") occurred right before the suicide and after school, so I would guess the school was not informed about it to even take any actions before the suicide. What is it that they knew but did not do?

With respect, I must refer you to the many, many links posted here...with such kind effort by Paladine. Please read the links. They contain a great deal of information about Phoebe's ordeal at school, both on the last day and in the months before.

You will get all the information you need if you review the links.

 

[raeann]

How did that go? Did they all behave?

There is a very BIG difference in misbehaving and stalking, shoving heads into walls, throwing objects, and screaming profane and derogatory remarks. Sending hundreds of texts and e mails that threaten to harm the recipient, following them home and hurling objects from cars---this is not considered "mis-behaving" by any rational person.

NO....all students don't behave! They talk in class, they get out of their seats, they ask to use the restroom and take 20 minutes to do so. They laugh when another student gives a wrong answer, or trips over their own feet. They make a loud "ooooh" in unison if someone gets called to the office. They "forget" that they had homework, they sleep late and come into class with a tardy slip, and they break the dress code rules. These are all behavior problems that get dealt with in various ways.

BUT, that is not what these abusers were doing. In other words, a prosecutor, a grand jury, and now a judge have all agreed that the actions in this case meet the level of criminal behavior. Since I have not seen the videos, witness statements, and electronic media evidence.....I must trust the judgement of those professionals and the objective citizens on the grand jury.

jmoo

 

[jjenny]

With respect, I must refer you to the many, many links posted here...with such kind effort by Paladine. Please read the links. They contain a great deal of information about Phoebe's ordeal at school, both on the last day and in the months before.

You will get all the information you need if you review the links.

With all due respect, those links contain contradictory information. The school denies knowing about it, prosecutor says they knew. What the school knew of, they said they took action.

 

[raeann]

With all due respect, those links contain contradictory information. The school denies knowing about it, prosecutor says they knew. What the school knew of, they said they took action.

Yes, there are at least two administrators who are denying that they knew about it....HOWEVER, so far I have seen statements made by one substitute teacher, one current teacher, and another report that a teacher in the library confirmed that incident to administration. We have heard numerous witnesses interviewed who confirm that teachers and principal knew. We have heard the family statement that they reported to school officials. Even the principal referred to the cafeteria incident and one or two others, although as you say....he also denies knowing anything.

jmoo