Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #1

[Bethan]

Just popping this in here as there's been discussion around lakes. I recently found out that cadaver dogs can sometimes pick up a scent from a body that has been submerged at the bottom of a lake. Even if they've been there for some time.

I just found that interesting. Personally I don't think she's in a lake.

Ive also been wondering the same thing....having learned previously on Webseluths that there are cadaver dogs specifically trained to pick up scent in water.

This would be a far safer option than sending divers into a lake, particularly at this time of year. However I presume that such highly specialised search dogs/teams are perhaps few & far between?

 

[talby66]

Ive also been wondering the same thing....having learned previously on Webseluths that there are cadaver dogs specifically trained to pick up scent in water.

This would be a far safer option than sending divers into a lake, particularly at this time of year. However I presume that such highly specialised search dogs/teams are perhaps few & far between?

They'd have to be able to get them there with all the necessary support required.

 

[Grouse]

Not quite. It's over 100 miles from Arreau to Toulouse.

The report I read (in the Guardian not the Daily Fail) said it was in the Gers region, which is much closer to Toulouse. 'We have nothing': police stumped by disappearance of Briton in Pyrenees

If it was indeed Arreau then mention of Toulouse makes less sense.

Edit: from the original BBC lifestyle article about the couple it says "The couple are currently several hundred miles apart" Van life: Durham couple's six years on the road (and counting)

Arreau looks much closer to the locations Esther was visiting so I'd say more likely to be Gers region, near to Toulouse.

 

[talby66]

The report I read (in the Guardian not the Daily Fail) said it was in the Gers region, which is much closer to Toulouse. 'We have nothing': police stumped by disappearance of Briton in Pyrenees

If it was indeed Arreau then mention of Toulouse makes less sense.

In one of the esteranddan facebook posts she says it was Arreau, I'm sure it is in dept 65, haute-pyrenees but she did also post (mistakenly) that she was in Sweden so she could have misspelled it, there is a Arrouede in Gers which begins the same so a spell/name checker could have got the better of her. It's one of a number of questions/issues which would be good to clear up, where exactly were they staying?

 

[Grouse]

In one of the esteranddan facebook posts she says it was Arreau, I'm sure it is in dept 65, haute-pyrenees but she did also post (mistakenly) that she was in Sweden so she could have misspelled it, there is a Arrouede in Gers which begins the same so a spell/name checker could have got the better of her. It's one of a number of questions/issues which would be good to clear up, where exactly were they staying?

Indeed - even such a basic fact about where exactly Dan was actually staying is not clear. Maybe it's being reported in such vague terms because the owners of the farmhouse don't want the media on their doorstep which is understandable.

 

[talby66]

Indeed - even such a basic fact about where exactly Dan was actually staying is not clear. Maybe it's being reported in such vague terms because the owners of the farmhouse don't want the media on their doorstep which is understandable.

I can understand that but we are only talking about which actual commune (okay given what they have posted it would probably be possible to find the farmhouse if you were sure of the commune). I think it is just indicative of very poor reporting.

 

[Grouse]

I can understand that but we are only talking about which actual commune (okay given what they have posted it would probably be possible to find the farmhouse if you were sure of the commune). I think it is just indicative of very poor reporting.

The only mention of Arreau I've seen is what you said earlier, and quite possibly a predictive text error as you say. I've no reason to doubt the BBC saying it's hundreds of miles away, especially when that article was published just before she went missing.

Edit: have since seen the post about Arreau on facebook and it's not a typing error as you can see it on the signpost in this picture (easier once you un-reverse the image)

https://www.facebook.com/estheranddan/photos/pcb.1455162604681117/1455162281347816/?type=3&theater

However she just says "Good to be back in Arreau and on the bike" so it doesn't seem to me she is necessarily at the farmhouse, could have gone there on a short trip?

Anyway, guess it's just nitpicking over one detail, and the only reason for that is to try to unpick the running away to Toulouse angle.

 

[ZaZara]

Unless, of course, he doesn't want to be identified for some reason.

There could be many reasons.

He may have come forward already and we haven't been told.
He may be working in a hospital fighting COVID without time & energy for the news.
He may be ill himself.
He may be hiking.

Offering people a lift is common in the mountain area, as was said. If he had bad intentions, he would have had every opportunity to carry out his plans the moment ED got into his car. Instead, he brought her to her van. Taking chances that he was seen, perhaps even recognized, captured on CCTV.

IMO he has little to tell about Esther, only his first impressions of her.

Meanwhile, other witnesses like mr Ballarín may have come forward who saw or met ED at a later time.

 

[talby66]

The only mention of Arreau I've seen is what you said earlier, and quite possibly a predictive text error as you say. I've no reason to doubt the BBC saying it's hundreds of miles away, especially when that article was published just before she went missing.

Edit: have since seen the post about Arreau on facebook and it's not a typing error as you can see it on the signpost in this picture (easier once you un-reverse the image)

https://www.facebook.com/estheranddan/photos/pcb.1455162604681117/1455162281347816/?type=3&theater

However she just says "Good to be back in Arreau and on the bike" so it doesn't seem to me she is necessarily at the farmhouse, could have gone there on a short trip?

Anyway, guess it's just nitpicking over one detail, and the only reason for that is to try to unpick the running away to Toulouse angle.

Well spotted, there's plenty of reports suggesting they were staying in a farmhouse in the small village of Arreau but then the papers just regurgitate what the first one said, so if they make an error...

 

[PeggyHenry]

I was just trying to find some reports regarding where they were house sitting - I know that reports do regurgitate but my object was to try and find one which is contrary to Arreau - my first report states Gascony is where Dan was house-sitting but most others say Arreau (in Haute Pyrennes region). Looking at the description of Gascony below I guess Arreau could be said to fall under GASCONY?

Gascony is a province of southwestern France that was part of the "Province of Guyenne and Gascony" prior to the French Revolution. The region is vaguely defined, and the distinction between Guyenne and Gascony is unclear; by some they are seen to overlap, while others consider Gascony a part of Guyenne. Most definitions put Gascony east and south of Bordeaux.
It is currently divided between the region of Nouvelle-Aquitaine (departments of Landes, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, southwestern Gironde, and southern Lot-et-Garonne) and the region of Occitanie (departments of Gers, Hautes-Pyrénées, southwestern Tarn-et-Garonne, and western Haute-Garonne).

Police reveal missing British hiker's domestic life 'was not as idyllic as social media suggested' | Daily Mail Online
Four officers from the French Gendarmerie paramilitary force spoke to Daniel Colegate at the farmhouse in Gascony that he is house-sitting on Monday afternoon.

Forensic reconstruction of hiker Esther Dingley's disappearance in the Pyrenees is revealed - BroRead.com

Esther set off on her solo adventure in early November, leaving Dan and the couple’s five dogs behind in the tiny French village of Arreau in the Haute-Pyrenees where they were house-sitting.

Locals fear British hiker missing in Pyrenees 'could have fallen into lake or other freezing water' | Daily Mail Online
Her 38-year-old boyfriend Dan Colegate, a former business development manager, had stayed in France with their five dogs and was house-sitting in the tiny village of Arreau in the Haute-Pyrenees.
'We are living a nightmare': family of missing British hiker Esther Dingley fears she was kidnapped (kaleistyleguide.com)

Mr Colegate, 38, a former business development manager who has been touring Europe with Ms Dingley for the past six years in a campervan, was house-sitting at the French village of Arreau in the Haute-Pyrenees, while Ms Dingley hiked through the Pyrenees on her own for a month.

 

[Grouse]

I totally agree about not having divers - body recovery is too dangerous. If she was wearing a 50 pound pack, as reported/surmised, she might never surface. If the lake is deep (looks deep to me), the bones would slowly abrade in the depths (at least, that's possible). OTOH, some bones might wash up. Could happen, but I think a lot of missing persons who went into water with backpacks fail to surface at the usual 2-3 weeks. There are a couple of cases of this type in Yosemite National Park (so of course, I'm always looking for bone fragments aside the Merced River).

She could indeed have rag-dolled down into the lake at several different points. I've seen lectures how to judge momentum on various slopes, but we'd need to know where she fell to really estimate.

I too think the lake cannot be ruled out.

I take the point about putting divers at risk but underwater drones are used a lot in search and rescue. I'd have thought in an area like that, with many visitors and lakes known to be a danger, they would have one of those on hand to at least check those three lakes between the Pic and the refuge, that are on her planned route.

Search and Rescue

 

[talby66]

Window of opportunity

How long was the window of opportunity for Esther to go missing? According to Dan she contacted him at 16:00 on the 22nd Nov from the pic de Sauvegarde, if we ignore the issue of when the photo he received was taken for the moment, she had, according to a named witness, Marti Vigo del Arco, passed him at around 15:00 so it is not unreasonable to believe she was at the pic. Dan states that her plan was to spend the night in the refuge de Venasque (the BBC reports that this last contact was from the pic and separately actually from the refuge, I think that’s just more poor reporting, you would think that they’d notice they have reported contradictory things!). Looking at hiking plans etc it is 1.5 hours from the refuge to the pic so I figure that it is at most 1.5 hours from the pic back to the refuge (downhill).

There is no sign that she was at the refuge, if she was there she should have signed in (and actually paid) “Un cahier des présences dans le refuge d’hiver est à compléter lors de votre arrivée.” (taken from the refuge de venasque site).

We also have plenty of reports suggesting that she was an experienced hiker, self confident, responsible and intelligent so given Dan says she was going to the refuge that’s exactly what she should have done, no deviations, etc, It would have been dark by 17:30 so no time to be doing other things anyway. Following on from this she should therefore, if she got there, signed in. An experienced and intelligent hiker would also know that in the event of something happening to them this would leave some sort of trail.

This leads me to suggest that there is only 90 mins for whatever happened to her to take place.

On that basis it seems very unlikely that a third party was involved in some sort of foul play. The hikers she met on the way did not report they had seen anyone else up there, they haven’t reported that someone else passed them in the same direction as the pic. In addition they have then got to do their foul deed, cleanup and hide any and all evidence and not be seen coming down themselves. There can’t have been many people that even knew she’d be up there so unless she just happened across someone prepared to commit serious crime (and then again, cleanup and hide all evidence) without any motive I can’t see a third party being involved. They would have to have means, motive and opportunity.

That leaves Esther coming to some other mishap but only on the trek from the pic to the refuge, thus a relatively small area to search and still no sign of her.

If on the other hand we say that Esther was not following what we believe to be her plan and did something (went somewhere) diametrically opposed to what she said then she would be harder to find given that she had a couple of days to do it. This is turn would lead me to think that Dan didn’t know her as well as he suggests which after all that time together would be very odd indeed.

 

[talby66]

I was just trying to find some reports regarding where they were house sitting - I know that reports do regurgitate but my object was to try and find one which is contrary to Arreau - my first report states Gascony is where Dan was house-sitting but most others say Arreau (in Haute Pyrennes region). Looking at the description of Gascony below I guess Arreau could be said to fall under GASCONY?

Gascony is a province of southwestern France that was part of the "Province of Guyenne and Gascony" prior to the French Revolution. The region is vaguely defined, and the distinction between Guyenne and Gascony is unclear; by some they are seen to overlap, while others consider Gascony a part of Guyenne. Most definitions put Gascony east and south of Bordeaux.
It is currently divided between the region of Nouvelle-Aquitaine (departments of Landes, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, southwestern Gironde, and southern Lot-et-Garonne) and the region of Occitanie (departments of Gers, Hautes-Pyrénées, southwestern Tarn-et-Garonne, and western Haute-Garonne).

Police reveal missing British hiker's domestic life 'was not as idyllic as social media suggested' | Daily Mail Online
Four officers from the French Gendarmerie paramilitary force spoke to Daniel Colegate at the farmhouse in Gascony that he is house-sitting on Monday afternoon.

Forensic reconstruction of hiker Esther Dingley's disappearance in the Pyrenees is revealed - BroRead.com

Esther set off on her solo adventure in early November, leaving Dan and the couple’s five dogs behind in the tiny French village of Arreau in the Haute-Pyrenees where they were house-sitting.

Locals fear British hiker missing in Pyrenees 'could have fallen into lake or other freezing water' | Daily Mail Online
Her 38-year-old boyfriend Dan Colegate, a former business development manager, had stayed in France with their five dogs and was house-sitting in the tiny village of Arreau in the Haute-Pyrenees.
'We are living a nightmare': family of missing British hiker Esther Dingley fears she was kidnapped (kaleistyleguide.com)

Mr Colegate, 38, a former business development manager who has been touring Europe with Ms Dingley for the past six years in a campervan, was house-sitting at the French village of Arreau in the Haute-Pyrenees, while Ms Dingley hiked through the Pyrenees on her own for a month.

A number of those reports say the dogs are in the farmhouse, I'm pretty sure they're not,which, if true, makes the value of the rest of the reports debatable.

 

[PeggyHenry]

A number of those reports say the dogs are in the farmhouse, I'm pretty sure they're not,which, if true, makes the value of the rest of the reports debatable.

Yes - you are right of course!

 

[PeggyHenry]

Window of opportunity

How long was the window of opportunity for Esther to go missing? According to Dan she contacted him at 16:00 on the 22nd Nov from the pic de Sauvegarde, if we ignore the issue of when the photo he received was taken for the moment, she had, according to a named witness, Marti Vigo del Arco, passed him at around 15:00 so it is not unreasonable to believe she was at the pic. Dan states that her plan was to spend the night in the refuge de Venasque (the BBC reports that this last contact was from the pic and separately actually from the refuge, I think that’s just more poor reporting, you would think that they’d notice they have reported contradictory things!). Looking at hiking plans etc it is 1.5 hours from the refuge to the pic so I figure that it is at most 1.5 hours from the pic back to the refuge (downhill).

There is no sign that she was at the refuge, if she was there she should have signed in (and actually paid) “Un cahier des présences dans le refuge d’hiver est à compléter lors de votre arrivée.” (taken from the refuge de venasque site).

We also have plenty of reports suggesting that she was an experienced hiker, self confident, responsible and intelligent so given Dan says she was going to the refuge that’s exactly what she should have done, no deviations, etc, It would have been dark by 17:30 so no time to be doing other things anyway. Following on from this she should therefore, if she got there, signed in. An experienced and intelligent hiker would also know that in the event of something happening to them this would leave some sort of trail.

This leads me to suggest that there is only 90 mins for whatever happened to her to take place.

On that basis it seems very unlikely that a third party was involved in some sort of foul play. The hikers she met on the way did not report they had seen anyone else up there, they haven’t reported that someone else passed them in the same direction as the pic. In addition they have then got to do their foul deed, cleanup and hide any and all evidence and not be seen coming down themselves. There can’t have been many people that even knew she’d be up there so unless she just happened across someone prepared to commit serious crime (and then again, cleanup and hide all evidence) without any motive I can’t see a third party being involved. They would have to have means, motive and opportunity.

That leaves Esther coming to some other mishap but only on the trek from the pic to the refuge, thus a relatively small area to search and still no sign of her.

If on the other hand we say that Esther was not following what we believe to be her plan and did something (went somewhere) diametrically opposed to what she said then she would be harder to find given that she had a couple of days to do it. This is turn would lead me to think that Dan didn’t know her as well as he suggests which after all that time together would be very odd indeed.

Interesting and thought-provoking post - I agree that it does seem to suggest a 90 min window. Also a smallish location range.
Wondering if she did get to the refuge (and it does seem to be an obvious place that she would head for given the restrictions on daylight hours) and whether there was someone there waiting for her. As you say there can't have been many people knowing she was up there, but it is possible that someone knew her intentions and went to wait there for her. If that is the case, then they were not sighted by Vigo.

 

[Grouse]

There is no sign that she was at the refuge, if she was there she should have signed in (and actually paid) “Un cahier des présences dans le refuge d’hiver est à compléter lors de votre arrivée.” (taken from the refuge de venasque site).

That could be partially validated quite easily (if they haven't already) by checking attendance books at other refuges she is known to have used, to see if she was in the habit of signing them. In particular the unmanned ones where there would be no one to ask her to do so.

That leaves Esther coming to some other mishap but only on the trek from the pic to the refuge, thus a relatively small area to search and still no sign of her.

But (at the risk of sounding like a broken record on this point) with 3 lakes that don't appear to have been checked, one right next to the refuge!

 

[PeggyHenry]

That could be partially validated quite easily (if they haven't already) by checking attendance books at other refuges she is known to have used, to see if she was in the habit of signing them. In particular the unmanned ones where there would be no one to ask her to do so.



But (at the risk of sounding like a broken record on this point) with 3 lakes that don't appear to have been checked, one right next to the refuge!

Knowing Esther was asking for fresh fruit - maybe she was in need of water or refreshment and not being a mountain hiker, how do you fill your water bottle? What I mean to say is - do you try and get water from a lake? I'm not familiar with how hikers keep hydrated.

 

[Grouse]

Knowing Esther was asking for fresh fruit - maybe she was in need of water or refreshment and not being a mountain hiker, how do you fill your water bottle? What I mean to say is - do you try and get water from a lake? I'm not familiar with how hikers keep hydrated.

a lot use filters like these Best Backpacking Water Filter of 2020

 

[Huffbuff]

What I mean to say is - do you try and get water from a lake? I'm not familiar with how hikers keep hydrated.
.......
Unless desperate you would always try to find flowing/running/spring water ...

 

[talby66]

Interesting and thought-provoking post - I agree that it does seem to suggest a 90 min window. Also a smallish location range.
Wondering if she did get to the refuge (and it does seem to be an obvious place that she would head for given the restrictions on daylight hours) and whether there was someone there waiting for her. As you say there can't have been many people knowing she was up there, but it is possible that someone knew her intentions and went to wait there for her. If that is the case, then they were not sighted by Vigo.

If by someone waited for her there you mean to do her harm, it seems very unlikely to me that they could do that and leave not a single trace, no blood, no torn clothing, no fingerprints, no dna, no damage to the property and of course who would know and what to do that? Remember there have been experts searching for her, I guess they'd notice the signs.